Gospel truth – or a grand conspiracy?

[Easyrider]

If the Gospels and Epistle writers were not being truthful in their depictions of Jesus Christ as a miracle worker, the Jewish Messiah, the Son of God, the resurrected Savior, and so on, then I think someone needs to provide a compelling motive, backed up by some sort of credible evidence, as to why some nine or so different New Testament authors shared such a common vision? What was their motive for a non-Biblical Jesus, considering their lives were on the line either way, and since such a pack of (alleged) lies should be easily refuted by others who knew a “different” Jesus? Why the “grand conspiracy” if Jesus is not who they claimed?

So, two things are asked for here: (1) A credible motive for a non-Biblical Jesus that takes into account the authors putting their lives on the line for an alleged lie (or whatever), and (2) Some kind of credible evidence to support that theory.

[Easyrider]

Like I say, you have your sources and I have mine:

Eusebius, the most important of the early church historians wrote his history of the early church in A.D. 325. He wrote, "The apostles and disciples of the Savior scattered over the whole world, preached the Gospel everywhere." The Church historian Schumacher researched the lives of the apostles and recounted the history of their martyrdoms.

Matthew suffered martyrdom in Ethiopia, killed by a sword wound.

Mark died in Alexandria, Egypt, after being dragged by horses through the streets until he was dead.

Luke was hanged by idolatrous priests on an olive tree in Greece as a result of his tremendous preaching to the lost.

John faced martyrdom when he was boiled in a huge basin of boiling oil during a wave of persecution in Rome. However, he was miraculously delivered from death. John was then sentenced to the mines on the prison island of Patmos. He wrote his prophetic Book of Revelation on Patmos. The apostle John was later freed and returned to serve as Bishop of Edessa in modern Turkey. He died as an old man, the only apostle to die peacefully.

Peter was crucified upside down on an x-shaped cross because he told his tormentors that he felt unworthy to die in the same way that Jesus Christ was crucified.

James the Just, the leader of the church in Jerusalem, was thrown over a hundred feet down from the southeast pinnacle of the Temple when he refused to deny his faith in Christ. When they discovered that he survived the fall, his enemies beat James to death with a fuller's club. This was the same pinnacle where Jesus went to during his Temptation.

James the Greater, a son of Zebedee, was a fisherman by trade when Jesus called him to a lifetime of ministry. As a strong leader of the church, James was ultimately beheaded at Jerusalem. The Roman officer who guarded James watched amazed as James defended his faith at his trial. Later, the officer walked beside James to the place of execution. Overcome by conviction, he declared his new faith to the judge and knelt beside James to accept beheading as a Christian.

Bartholomew, also know as Nathanael, was a missionary to Asia. He witnessed to our Lord in present day Turkey. Bartholomew was martyred for his preaching in Armenia when he was flayed to death by a whip.

Andrew was crucified on an x-shaped cross in Patras, Greece. After being whipped severely by seven soldiers they tied his body to the cross with cords to prolong his agony. His followers reported that, when he was led toward the cross, Andrew saluted it in these words: "I have long desired and expected this happy hour. The cross has been consecrated by the body of Christ hanging on it." He continued to preach to his tormentors for two days until he expired.

Thomas was stabbed with a spear (lance) in India during one of his missionary trips to establish the church in the subcontinent.

Jude, the brother of Jesus, was killed with arrows when he refused to deny his faith in Christ.

Matthias, the apostle chosen to replace the traitor Judas Iscariot, was stoned and then beheaded.

Barnabas, one of the group of seventy disciples, wrote the Epistle of Barnabas. He preached throughout Italy and Cyprus. Barnabas was stoned to death at Salonica.

Paul was tortured and then beheaded by the evil Emperor Nero in Rome in A.D. 67. Paul endured a lengthy imprisonment which allowed him to write his many epistles to the churches he had formed throughout the Roman Empire.

Jesus is Lord!

[Lotan]

Like I say, you have your sources and I have mine:

Eusebius, the most important of the early church historians wrote his history of the early church in A.D. 325.

Let's look at that source...

Eusebius, appropriately called the 'Father of Church History' was an heretical, self-confessed liar, beholden to the emperor Constantine, writing two centuries too late. No one can accuse you of being fussy.
From Wikipedia...
"The limitations of Eusebius could be said to flow from his position as the first court appointed Christian theologian in the service of the Constantine Roman Empire. Notwithstanding the great influence of his works on others, Eusebius was not himself a great historian. [2] His treatment of heresy, for example, is inadequate, and he knew very little about the Western church. His historical works are really apologetics. In his Ecclesiastical History, Vol. 8, chapter 2, he points out, "We shall introduce into this history in general only those events which may be useful first to ourselves and afterwards to posterity."
In his Praeparatio evangelica (xii, 31), Eusebius has a section on the use of fictions (pseudos) as a "medicine", which may be "lawful and fitting" to use.
These and other issues have invited controversy. For example, Jacob Burckhardt has dismissed Eusebius as "the first thoroughly dishonest historian of antiquity". Burckhardt is not alone in holding such a view.

Here are a couple of examples of Eusebius' 'history' taken from The unreliable Eusebius...

"Later (Volume 1, Chapter 13), he tells the story of a contemporary (Abgarus, otherwise known as King Abgar) writing a letter to Jesus the Christ and then receiving an answer (a story which some Fundamentalists still claim might have some merit!)

In Volume 2 (chapter 17), Eusebius goes on to wrongly claim that the early first century writer Philo and Therapeutae sect were Christians, which they were not."

Also, "Eusebius claims to have witnessed first wild animals being reluctant to attack Christian martys".

The author draws this conclusion...

"As with every ancient writer, there is reason to doubt the veracity of Eusebius on matters of church history which are not corroborated elsewhere."

(For an exhaustive yet unconvincing defense of Eusebius try Eusebius the Liar?)

The Church historian Schumacher...

Does this guy even have a first name? Is it Gottlieb, Konrad, Fritz? The fairy tales that are "recounted" by him are all over the net, but he is always identified only as "The Church historian Schumacher". Something's fishy. Since he's your source I have no doubt that you'll be able to clear up this matter of his identity.

As for the rest of the nonsense that you posted, here's a quote from the Blue Letter Bible...

"The martyrdom of James is the only biblical and reliable account of a death of one of the twelve apostles."

There are alternative traditions to the ones that you pasted, as well as 'apostles' that weren't included in that list but I can't be bothered to cite them here.

For those interested, further information on this subject may be found on Richard Packham's site "The martyrdom of Jesus' apostles proves that Christianity is true!"...

"Actually, the time, place, and manner of the deaths of the Twelve is unknown."

[Easyrider]

Grind that axe....

Actually, like I said, you have your sources on that and I do also.

Got anything new?

[juliod]

Actually, like I said, you have your sources on that and I do also.

Don't you feel even a little ashamed at pretending you have a case? I mean, you cite Eusebius, Lotan shows that even he didn't claim to be telling the truth, and you don't even try a rebuttal. All you seem to have is a wish to believe various traditional accounts.

DanZ

[Easyrider]

Actually, like I said, you have your sources on that and I do also.

Don't you feel even a little ashamed at pretending you have a case? I mean, you cite Eusebius, Lotan shows that even he didn't claim to be telling the truth, and you don't even try a rebuttal. All you seem to have is a wish to believe various traditional accounts.

DanZ

Two different views can screw up Jesus' teachings also.

They killed the prophets in the Old Testament too, then Jesus, then Stephen - a disciple, then James, and before that John the Baptist. Care to stay in denial too?

[Lotan]

They killed the prophets in the Old Testament too, then Jesus, then Stephen - a disciple, then James, and before that John the Baptist.

By "They", I presume that you are referring to the Temple authorities (although John the Baptist was actually executed by Herod Antipas). Would that be correct?

[Easyrider]

They killed the prophets in the Old Testament too, then Jesus, then Stephen - a disciple, then James, and before that John the Baptist.

By "They", I presume that you are referring to the Temple authorities (although John the Baptist was actually executed by Herod Antipas). Would that be correct?

No, I was referring to the Old Testament Israelites (not the religious leaders per se) who killed their own prophets.

[Lotan]

No, I was referring to the Old Testament Israelites (not the religious leaders per se) who killed their own prophets.

The context of your statement suggests that it was the same "They" that killed all the persons listed. If the OT Iraelites killed the prophets as you say, then who killed the rest ("then Jesus, then Stephen - a disciple, then James, and before that John the Baptist")?

[Lotan]

No, I was referring to the Old Testament Israelites (not the religious leaders per se) who killed their own prophets.

Really? Which ones?

Maybe you’re relying on this…?

That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Matt. 23:35 (par. Luke 11:51)

Not that Abel was a prophet, or Cain was an Israelite, but hey, why should we start recognizing facts now?

Maybe you’re ‘reasoning’ like these guys…?

"In Mk.12:1-12 Jesus gave a parable teaching that God sent many servants to his vineyard (Israel) but they ended killing them until finally God said he would send his son (Vs.6-7; Lk.20:13-15). The story illustrates how the prophets were sent to their own people who rejected and killed them."

At least some people don’t think that the Real ProphetsTM had it so bad though…

"As mentioned above, if a prophet ever spoke a single word for the Lord that didn't come true, all his writings were destroyed and he was killed." Now that's funny!

I’m sure that you’re not just making this up so let’s see how many of those OT prophets were killed by the Israelites…

How the Prophets Died*
(in no particular order)

Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. No death!

Elisha died in bed in his own house (2 Kings 13:14-19). Died of old age.

Moses lived until 120. Died of old age.

Joshua His work being done, he died, at the age of one hundred and ten years, twenty-five years after having crossed the Jordan. Died of old age.

Nehemiah set himself with vigour to rectify the flagrant abuses that had sprung up, and restored the orderly administration of public worship and the outward observance of the law of Moses. Of his subsequent history we know nothing. Probably he remained at his post as governor till his death (about B.C. 413) in a good old age.

Samuel his death took place at Ramah when he was probably about eighty years of age. "And all Israel gathered themselves together, and lamented him, and buried him in his house at Ramah" 1Sam (25:1). Died of old age.

Daniel The time and circumstances of his death are not recorded. He probably died at Susa, about eighty-five years of age. Died of old age.

Hosea was directed by Yahweh to marry a harlot. The period of his ministry (extending to some sixty years) is indicated in the superscription (Hos. 1:1, 2). He is the only prophet of Israel who has left any written prophecy. Died of old age.

Jeremiah was persecuted by the religious leaders, and faced a great deal of hostility and resistance, including an attempted execution.
He lived till the reign of Evil-merodach, son of Nebuchadnezzar, and must have been about ninety years of age at his death. Died of old age.

(There's no evidence that any of these following 'prophets' came to a bad end. The Bible doesn't mention that they are in any particular danger of anything, it just doesn't record their deaths, possibly because they were unremarkable?)

Nathan last appears assisting David in reorganizing the public worship (2 Chr. 29:25). He seems to have written a life of David, and also a life of Solomon (1 Chr. 29:29; 2 Chr. 9:29). The time and manner of his death are unknown.

Ezra put the Old Testament much into the shape in which it is still found in the Hebrew Bible. The time and manner of his death are unknown.

Esther The time and manner of her death are unknown.

Iddo The time and manner of his death are unknown.

Jehu The time and manner of his death are unknown.

Shemaiah The time and manner of his death are unknown.

Malachi although not even a real person, just for fun - The time and manner of his death are unknown.

Habakkuk Practically nothing is known about Habakkuk's personal history. Habakkuk is unique among the prophets in that he openly questions the wisdom of God. The time and manner of his death are unknown.

Haggai Scarcely anything is known of his personal history. The time and manner of his death are unknown.

Nahum All we know of him is recorded in the book of his prophecies. He was probably a native of Galilee, and after the deportation of the ten tribes took up his residence in Jerusalem. The time and manner of his death are unknown.

Micah Very little is known of the circumstances of his life. The time and manner of his death are unknown.

Joel The time and manner of his death are unknown.

Jonah The time and manner of his death are unknown.

Amos The time and manner of his death are unknown.

Obadiah Copied Jeremiah (or vice versa). The time and manner of his death are unknown.

Ezekiel was probably carried away captive with Jehoiachin (1:2; 2 Kings 24:14-16) about B.C. 597. His prophetic call came to him "in the fifth year of Jehoiachin's captivity" (B.C. 594).
The time and manner of his death are unknown.

Isaiah There is a tradition that he suffered martyrdom in the heathen reaction in the time of Manasseh, but the time and manner of his death are unknown.

(Ooh, So close! Now, this next bunch had it rough, but their deaths weren't the result of any animosity on the part of the OT Israelites.)

Uriah is known for burning the manuscript of one of the prophecies of Jeremiah. Killed by King Jehoiakim.

Zephaniah was put to death by the king of Babylon "at Riblah in the land of Hamath" (2 Kings 25:21). Killed by Nebuchadnezzar.

Ahijah fled and took refuge at the altar, and received pardon for his conduct from Solomon on the condition that he showed himself "a worthy man" (1 Kings 1:5-53). Afterwards, Adonijah made a second attempt to gain the throne, but was seized and put to death (1 Kings 2:13-25). Killed by King Solomon.

Zechariah They conspired against him, and stoned him with stones at the commandment of the king in the court of the house of Yahweh. Chron. 24:20-21 Killed by King Joash.

So, the total number of prophets killed by the OT Israelites = ZERO!

Thanks, Easyrider. That was fun.

* Most of this information can be found at ChristianAnswers.net.

[McCulloch]

Most of this information can be found at ChristianAnswers.net.

OR The Bible