Let's cut to the chase. Do you have any evidence?

[no evidence no belief]

I feel like we've been beating around the bush for... 6000 years!

Can you please either provide some evidence for your supernatural beliefs, or admit that you have no evidence?

If you believe there once was a talking donkey (Numbers 22) could you please provide evidence?

If you believe there once was a zombie invasion in Jerusalem (Mat 27) could you please provide evidence?

If you believe in the flying horse (Islam) could you please provide evidence?

Walking on water, virgin births, radioactive spiders who give you superpowers, turning water into wine, turning iron into gold, demons, goblins, ghosts, hobbits, elves, angels, unicorns and Santa.

Can you PLEASE provide evidence?

[Goose]

Tell you what, Goose. I'm NOT familiar with the minimal facts approach, so mayhap you'd be kind enough to go ahead and lay out your proofs for me?

The Minimal Facts Approach is to look at historical facts that a wide range of scholars tend to hold to, even some critics. They are roughly as follows.

1. The disciples believed that Jesus rose from the dead and made appearances.
2. Paul converted because of his experience.
3. James' converted.
4. The tomb was empty.

We then argue to the explanation that best accounts for these facts in both scope and explanatory power.

Secondly, I'd ask you if you didn't see the rather large difference between accepting the assassination of Caesar as fact and accepting the crucified Nazarene coming back to life as fact.

I see them as both extraordinary events.

I'm sure you're very smart, but these games try my patience to no end.

The jury is still out on whether or not I'm very smart. Stay tuned.

There is no such event in history that is going to serve as some ''control'' that's analogous to Jesus rising from the dead and ascending into the heavens.

The event of the assassination (or any other ancient event for that matter) is introduced as control regarding the treatment of the evidence. Since this thread is asking for evidence of Christian supernatural claims or demanding we admit we have none, I think I'm justified in introducing that control. That there is such objection to me doing this speaks volumes.

This is absurd, Goose.

I disagree.

Find another character in history that is believed to have risen from the dead according to our written and oral tradition and you can make a cogent comparison.

I'm using an event that is not disputed as the control. If I were to use another resurrection claim it wouldn't carry the same weight.

[instantc]

1. The disciples believed that Jesus rose from the dead and made appearances.

According to the scholars, yes, on some level they seemed to believe this, but how convinced were they?

2. Paul converted because of his experience.
3. James' converted.

People convert for all kinds of reasons, it is not proof of anything.

4. The tomb was empty.

What in your view makes the bodily resurrection more plausible than, say, mass hallucination? I'm asking this because I want to discus the matter with you and not attack someone else's thoughts that I may already know.

[Nickman]

How is not? Would your contention be this is an ordinary every day type of occurrence? If so, when was the last time you witnessed the leader of a country stabbed to death in broad daylight by a large group of politicians?

The size of the group means nothing. Assassinations occured regularly in history.

http://listverse.com/2007/10/28/the-10- ... sinations/

False. Caesar doesn't die like everyone else - that's the point - as most people die ordinary by natural causes. Caesar dies extraordinarily. I'm sure how you can argue his death was ordinary.

I guess MLK, JFK, Malcom X, and Abraham Lincoln are extraordinary too.

In other words, both stories are extraordinary.

No they are not. Assassinations are common, regardless of how many people do it. Ever heard of Gaddafi?

Wiki
Muammar Gaddafi, the deposed leader of Libya, died on 20 October 2011 during the Battle of Sirte. Gaddafi was found hiding in a culvert west of Sirte and captured by National Transitional Council forces. He was killed shortly afterwards. The NTC initially claimed he died from injuries sustained in a firefight when loyalist forces attempted to free him, although videos of his last moments show rebel fighters beating him before he was shot dead.

[Danmark]

Tell you what, Goose. I'm NOT familiar with the minimal facts approach, so mayhap you'd be kind enough to go ahead and lay out your proofs for me?

The Minimal Facts Approach is to look at historical facts that a wide range of scholars tend to hold to, even some critics. They are roughly as follows.

1. The disciples believed that Jesus rose from the dead and made appearances.
2. Paul converted because of his experience.

It is good to keep in mind that Paul never met Jesus, ever. His conversion had nothing to do with seeing Jesus. His conversion came, according to Paul and the account by Luke, after Paul had some kind of seizure and illness and later reported he'd seen Jesus in a vision. It is also good to keep in mind that Paul's writings pre date the gospel accounts and that Paul seems oblivious to those accounts.

[Nickman]

Tell you what, Goose. I'm NOT familiar with the minimal facts approach, so mayhap you'd be kind enough to go ahead and lay out your proofs for me?

The Minimal Facts Approach is to look at historical facts that a wide range of scholars tend to hold to, even some critics. They are roughly as follows.

1. The disciples believed that Jesus rose from the dead and made appearances.
2. Paul converted because of his experience.

It is good to keep in mind that Paul never met Jesus, ever. His conversion had nothing to do with seeing Jesus. His conversion came, according to Paul and the account by Luke, after Paul had some kind of seizure and illness and later reported he'd seen Jesus in a vision. It is also good to keep in mind that Paul's writings pre date the gospel accounts and that Paul seems oblivious to those accounts.

Biblical and external evidence indicates that Paul had contracted Chronic Malaria because of where he was born, Tarsus. This swampy place was a breeding ground for the disease. We notice that his "thorn in his flesh" was only ignited in hot and humid regions which cause symptoms to return. In the first century, many people carried malaria but didn't exhibit the symptoms until they reached certain climates, hot and humid.

Symptoms of malaria include fever and flu-like illness, including shaking chills, headache, muscle aches, and tiredness. Nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea may also occur. Malaria may cause anemia and jaundice (yellow coloring of the skin and eyes) because of the loss of red blood cells. Symptoms usually appear between 10 and 15 days after the mosquito bite. If not treated, malaria can quickly become life-threatening by disrupting the blood supply to vital organs. Infection with one type of malaria, Plasmodium falciparum, if not promptly treated, may cause kidney failure, seizures, mental confusion, coma, and death. In many parts of the world, the parasites have developed resistance to a number of malaria medicines.

[scourge99]

Secondly, I'd ask you if you didn't see the rather large difference between accepting the assassination of Caesar as fact and accepting the crucified Nazarene coming back to life as fact.

I see them as both extraordinary events.

As long as Goose remains obtuse/oblivious to the fundamental difference between an assassination and a magical event, i don't see this discussion going anywhere.

[scourge99]

Tell you what, Goose. I'm NOT familiar with the minimal facts approach, so mayhap you'd be kind enough to go ahead and lay out your proofs for me?

The Minimal Facts Approach is to look at historical facts that a wide range of scholars tend to hold to, even some critics. They are roughly as follows.

1. The disciples believed that Jesus rose from the dead and made appearances.
2. Paul converted because of his experience.

It is good to keep in mind that Paul never met Jesus, ever. His conversion had nothing to do with seeing Jesus. His conversion came, according to Paul and the account by Luke, after Paul had some kind of seizure and illness and later reported he'd seen Jesus in a vision. It is also good to keep in mind that Paul's writings pre date the gospel accounts and that Paul seems oblivious to those accounts.

Biblical and external evidence indicates that Paul had contracted Chronic Malaria because of where he was born, Tarsus. This swampy place was a breeding ground for the disease. We notice that his "thorn in his flesh" was only ignited in hot and humid regions which cause symptoms to return. In the first century, many people carried malaria but didn't exhibit the symptoms until they reached certain climates, hot and humid.

Symptoms of malaria include fever and flu-like illness, including shaking chills, headache, muscle aches, and tiredness. Nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea may also occur. Malaria may cause anemia and jaundice (yellow coloring of the skin and eyes) because of the loss of red blood cells. Symptoms usually appear between 10 and 15 days after the mosquito bite. If not treated, malaria can quickly become life-threatening by disrupting the blood supply to vital organs. Infection with one type of malaria, Plasmodium falciparum, if not promptly treated, may cause kidney failure, seizures, mental confusion, coma, and death. In many parts of the world, the parasites have developed resistance to a number of malaria medicines.

I would avoid making speculations like this. While it may be plausible, its a weak argument that is unnecessary.

We don't need to give some alternative scenario for why Paul or thr writers of the gospel wrote/believed what they did. Rather, we can just point out the insufficient justification for believing what they believed/wrote.

[Star]

Your opening premise is the universal statement "people don't rise from the dead." All I need is one counter example to falsify this premise. Not withstanding the resurrection of Jesus I have several counter examples in the Lazarus Syndrome. These are medically documented cases of people declared dead by medical professionals who then spontaneously (without medical intervention such as CPR) returned to life.

I had a good chuckle at this. It's true that you only need one example to falsify his premise, however, you don't have one. Jesus rising from the dead is a fairy tale. Lazarus Syndrome, if you read your article, has many possible medical explanations for it. Even still, that's NOT rising from the dead. These patients were already in the process of being resuscitated.

From your article:

Various mechanisms have been suggested as explanation for the phenomenon. Bradbury (6) suggested delayed delivery to the heart of previously administered adrenaline as the basis for SROC in a patient after acute myocardial infarction and left ventricular failure. Voelckel and Kroesen (7) reported a case of suspected hyperkalemic cardiac arrest, and hypothesized that SROC seven minutes after discontinuing the resuscitation was attributable to a gradual intracellular shift of potassium after previously administered bicarbonate. Quick and Bastani (8) attributed SROC eight minutes after declaration of death to a similar mechanism. One case report described SROC five minutes after discontinuation of cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) intraoperatively during thoracoabdominal aortic endovascular stent-graft placement (9). The postulated mechanism in that case was a spontaneous dislodging of embolized endovascular plaque from the coronary artery, which then allowed cardiac reperfusion.

A few authors have discussed “auto-PEEP� as a possible mechanism to explain SROC (10–12). During CPR, dynamic hyperinflation may develop in a patient with obstructive airway disease because of hyperventilation and inadequate exhalation time. Cessation of ventilation relieves the hyperinflation and the excessive intrathoracic pressure, thus allowing cardiac filling and permitting the spontaneous return of cardiac function. Lapinsky and Leung (13) reviewed 89 cases of CPR of which 34 had documentation of electromechanical dissociation. In 16 of these 34 patients, there were autopsy or clinical findings that provided an explanation of the electromechanical dissociation. Thirteen of the remaining 18 patients (72%) had a history of obstructive airway disease in contrast to an incidence of 11% in the other patients who had been resuscitated.

Of these various mechanisms, that which seems most relevant in this case is that of positive pressure ventilation increasing intrathoracic pressure, which then impeded venous return. Hypovolemia would also have exaggerated the deleterious effect of intrathoracic pressure on venous return. With the cessation of positive pressure ventilation, perhaps enhanced passive filling of the quiescent heart stimulated spontaneous electrical activity. And perhaps this spontaneous rhythm went unnoticed for some minutes. Having been ventilated with 100% oxygen, there would have been an oxygen reserve in the residual capacity of the lungs that could have provided for oxygenation during this period of unrecognized SROC. Reduced oxygen consumption secondary to the hypothermia (which certainly also afforded significant neurologic protection), and the fact that arterial perfusion was limited to the level above the aortic clamp, might have also played a role. In addition, residual epinephrine from earlier injections may have been a sufficient vasopressor to sustain the blood pressure during this time. The large dose of epinephrine used could also explain the dilated pupils that may not, therefore, have reflected his neurologic status. It is also interesting to speculate on the possible role of the aortic cross clamping and the associated changes in preload, afterload, and humoral factors in causing the initial arrest, as well as how these factors might have changed both during and after the resuscitation to have allowed SROC.

[Whatistruth75]

[Replying to post 1117 by Star]

1 Corinthians 1

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

[Star]

In either case, whether you do or not, the salient point is your observation that no one claims to have witnessed the resurrection is irrelevant, tantamount to a Red Herring, since it is evident by the example of Caesar's assassination we do not need that type of evidence to infer an event in history.

Assassinations/murder in Ancient Rome were NOT extraordinary! For your edification, here is a list of assassinated Roman emperors:

• Aemilianus
  Carinus
  Claudius
  Dalmatius
  Domitian
  Florianus
  Gallienus
  Trebonianus Gallus
  Publius Septimius Geta
  Majorian
  Maxentius
  Julius Nepos
  Saloninus
  Alexander Severus
  Marcus Claudius Tacitus
  Maximinus Thrax
  Valerius Valens
  Valentinian III
  Valerian
  Volusianus

Roman emperors murdered by Praetorian Guard:

• Aurelian
  Balbinus
  Caligula
  Caracalla
  Commodus
  Elagabalus
  Galba
  Gordian III
  Numerian
  Pertinax
  Marcus Aurelius Probus
  Pupienus
  Pupienus and Balbinus

Roman emperors executed:

• Achilleus
  Domitius Alexander
  Anthemius
  Constans
  Diadumenian
  Gratian
  Didius Julianus
  Licinius
  Macrinus
  Magnus Maximus
  Martinian (Sextus Martinianus)
  Flavius Victor
  Vitellius

Byzantine emperors assassinated:

• Alexios II Komnenos
  Alexios IV Angelos
  Constans II
  Leo V the Armenian
  Michael III
  Nikephoros II Phokas

Roman politicians assassinated:

• Gaius Cassius Parmensis
  Julius Caesar
  Tiberius Gracchus
  Gaius Memmius
  Pompey
  Curia of Pompey
  Portico of Pompey