Let's cut to the chase. Do you have any evidence?

[no evidence no belief]

I feel like we've been beating around the bush for... 6000 years!

Can you please either provide some evidence for your supernatural beliefs, or admit that you have no evidence?

If you believe there once was a talking donkey (Numbers 22) could you please provide evidence?

If you believe there once was a zombie invasion in Jerusalem (Mat 27) could you please provide evidence?

If you believe in the flying horse (Islam) could you please provide evidence?

Walking on water, virgin births, radioactive spiders who give you superpowers, turning water into wine, turning iron into gold, demons, goblins, ghosts, hobbits, elves, angels, unicorns and Santa.

Can you PLEASE provide evidence?

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to Danmark]

I have been advancing this same argument for the entire four years that I have been a member of this forum. I will continue to advance it for as long as I am a member for the benefit of those who are new to the forum. Interestingly, my particular argument, as sound as it is, has begun to be almost secondary to the open fact that Christians not only do not have an effective countering argument, but that those Christians who have been exposed to this particular argument studiously ignore it and choose to refuse to debate it. EduChris, Haven, pax and ttruscott have in fact placed me on their "ignore" list effectively rendering me invisible so that they won't have to be exposed to my "rants" any longer. Conversely, it would never occur to me to attempt to shield myself from the opinions of others by making them invisible. And if this does not represent an open admission of defeat on their part, as well as the other Christians on this forum, it certainly does represent just about as close to an admission of defeat as one might reasonably expect to encounter on a debate forum such as this one. Refusing to debate is an open admission of defeat, plain and simple. This is what Philbert is now attempting to do, by declaring the exercise pointless. If he had an effective argument to make he would be stumbling all over himself to crush us with it. Instead he is attempting to beat a strategic retreat, leaving the field to us. Which is why there are so many non believers here waiting to pounce on the relatively few remaining believers. We are the victims of your own success. It's called winning, and it represents all the satisfaction we are ever going to get from this exercise. But at least we aren't the one's running away from the fray, all frustrated and angry.

[Danmark]

[Replying to Danmark]

I have been advancing this same argument for the entire four years that I have been a member of this forum. I will continue to advance it for as long as I am a member for the benefit of those who are new to the forum. Interestingly, my particular argument, as sound as it is, has begun to be almost secondary to the open fact that Christians not only do not have an effective countering argument, but that those Christians who have been exposed to this particular argument studiously ignore it and choose to refuse to debate it. EduChris, Haven, pax and ttruscott have in fact placed me on their "ignore" list effectively rendering me invisible so that they won't have to be exposed to my "rants" any longer. Conversely, it would never occur to me to attempt to shield myself from the opinions of others by making them invisible. And if this does not represent an open admission of defeat on their part, as well as the other Christians on this forum, it certainly does represent just about as close to an admission of defeat as one might reasonably expect to encounter on a debate forum such as this one. Refusing to debate is an open admission of defeat, plain and simple. This is what Philbert is now attempting to do, by declaring the exercise pointless. If he had an effective argument to make he would be stumbling all over himself to crush us with it. Instead he is attempting to beat a strategic retreat, leaving the field to us. Which is why there are so many non believers here waiting to pounce on the relatively few remaining believers. We are the victims of your own success. It's called winning, and it represents all the satisfaction we are ever going to get from this exercise. But at least we aren't the one's running away from the fray, all frustrated and angry.

I agree. There is much truth that using 'ignore' is an admission of defeat. I love it when they admit they can't handle it. I'm ignored by:
Cephus
NVIIIX1
Philbert
Stan

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to Danmark]

I agree. There is much truth that using 'ignore' is an admission of defeat. I love it when they admit they can't handle it. I'm ignored by:
Cephus
NVIIIX1
Philbert
Stan

If none of these people wish to be exposed to "thoughts," they really should find a different sand box to play in.

[no evidence no belief]

I've personally heard of many believers who have come to doubt and abandon their doctrines after reading Dawkins's books.

If his words can do such a trick, I guess some people here stand a chance as well, don't they? Personally, I think some of the arguments here are more convincing than the ones in God Delusion.[

So then, I guess you're on record now as having NO EVIDENCE that your activities here are accomplishing anything.

I want to come on the record: I have evidence that my activities here accomplished something. This forum was started by theists, and originally has lots of theists on it. The number of theists has been steadily diminishing in proportion to atheists. I personally have debated against several atheists who got so frustrated that they quit the forum, or even got banned for losing their temper and blatantly violating rules - every other course of action being denied them.

My actions here are a microcosm of the actions of every other atheist on this board, which in turn are a microcosm of atheist actions in society overall. We are winning.

Each of us personally is resoundingly beating the theists' arguments. The forum as a whole is becoming more and more atheist. The world as a whole is becoming more and more atheist.

The evidence is clear and measurable at every level. I personally caused theists to quit and/or be banned. The forum as a whole clearly has more atheists than theists. In Europe theism is all but gone, and in america non-religious folks are the fastest growing minority.

So, no evidence of accomplishing anything

Err? What? Oh wait I forgot, by your own admission you live in fantasy land.

and yet we both continue typing, typing, typing, day after day after day. Not just typing, but typing with great passion, as if we were saving the world or something.

We are. In our own small way. There hasn't been a burning of a witch in centuries. Heresy is no longer a crime. Corrective rape of lesbians is no longer a common practice. Intelligent design gets pummeled in every courthouse it lands on. Atheist authors sell millions of books instead of being ostracized. Presidents in the 80's would say stuff like "atheists cannot be patriots", and now Presidents acknowledges non-believers as a class worthy of mention in his inauguration address.

We are making progress, buddy.

Are you starting to get it that fantasy is part of the human condition, and not just the Christian condition?

It's certianly part of your condition.

[Jax Agnesson]

Do you by chance have any reason for suspecting that I have anything other than utter loathing for Stalin or Mao?

Yes, I do. You never talk about Stalin and Mao,

Weird that I don't discuss Stalin or Mao, with this being a religious discussion site, and them being allegedly not religious. Inexplicable, innit?

but you have plenty of time to post about much lesser offenses by theists. This reveals your concern is with promoting your ideology, not with violence etc.

This is a total red herring, but I'll deal with it anyway. (just this once) because I think that under all the nonsense labelled 'Philbert', there probably is a worthwhile person in there.
If we lived in a society where the human rights of women and gays were being threatened by the followers of Stalin, what position do you think I'd be taking, Phil? Do you really think I'd be on Stalin's side, just because he's allegedly atheist? If we lived in a society where the rights of Jews and Gypsies and Jehovah's Witnesses were being threatened by Hitler, which side do you think I'd be on, Phil? Do you really think I'd be on Hitler's side, just because he claims not to be a Christian? If we lived in a society where the rights of free-thinkers, individualists and poets were threatened by Maoists, which side do you think I'd be on, Phil? Do you really think I'd be siding with the Maoists, just because they claim to share my opinion about the Abrahamic God?
Really Phil. How long can you keep pretending to this level of incomprehension?

Any chance you were once actually interested in understanding the need that drives religion and your resistance to it? Any chance you could be again?

Yes. I understand the need that drives religion. Or, more exactly, I understand that many different people and groups find religion answers their many and different needs. Where people are searching for spiritual solace, I stand quietly and respectfully alongside, having little to say.
Where people use religious or political party loyalty to justify oppression on grounds of ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, or whatever other factors enrage some particualr bunch of bigots, standing quietly by doesn't seem like an ethically justifiable position to me. Does it to you?

[Philbert]

Weird that I don't discuss Stalin or Mao, with this being a religious discussion site, and them being allegedly not religious. Inexplicable, innit?

C'mon Jax, I expect more from you than sarcastic quips. I don't mind the sarcasm, I mind the lack of real content.

but you have plenty of time to post about much lesser offenses by theists. This reveals your concern is with promoting your ideology, not with violence etc.

This is a total red herring,

It's not a red herring at all, it's a totally relevant point.

Atheist commentators are trying to offer reason as alternative to religion. That's a good plan, but you're not doing it. You're not being loyal to your own proposal.

It's not reason to complain about religious fascism while ignoring atheist fascism. That is NOT reason. It's ideology, the very thing you are understandably complaining about in religion.

Until you guys get it through your thick skulls that ideology is not reason, you have nothing to offer as an alternative to religion, and render yourselves worthless as critics.

See? Not a red herring. Which you could have figured out yourself in 30 seconds, if you were reasoning, and not ideologizing. You're an intelligent person Jax, and wallowing around in atheist dogmas is beneath your ability.

but I'll deal with it anyway. (just this once) because I think that under all the nonsense labelled 'Philbert', there probably is a worthwhile person in there.

More fantasy assertions, what a load of crap!

If we lived in a society where the human rights of women and gays were being threatened by the followers of Stalin, what position do you think I'd be taking, Phil?

You'd be explaining over and over and over again why Stalinism had nothing to do with atheism. It's a long standing pattern of holy atheist dogma on every forum like this.

Do you really think I'd be on Stalin's side, just because he's allegedly atheist?

Speaking of red herrings, when did I ever say you'd be on Stalin's side? What I did say is that you are focused only on theist crimes, and not atheist crimes, revealing that you're not actually interested in crime, but in promoting your ideology.

Really Phil. How long can you keep pretending to this level of incomprehension?

Really Jax, aren't you getting weary of me embarrassing you like this? The only reason I can is because you're not using the good brain you have. I'm not any smarter than you, I'm just taking a more objective view than you, because I'm not stuck in the theist vs. atheist rut.

Yes. I understand the need that drives religion.

Ok, explain it to us then. A new thread seems in order.

Where people use religious or political party loyalty to justify oppression on grounds of ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, or whatever other factors enrage some particualr bunch of bigots, standing quietly by doesn't seem like an ethically justifiable position to me. Does it to you?

Here's a simple system, which I've explained to you repeatedly, but you have your good brain turned off so you never remember.

Oppose the Taliban because they are fascists, not because they are believers. Oppose them for what they do, not for what they believe.

This is reason Jax. You have no power to change what they believe, but you can stop them from hurting others.

I renew my question to you from another thread. Do you support the war against the Taliban? If you answered this already, my apologies, as I've lost track of where I asked this earlier.

Do you support sending our volunteers in to Afghanistan to fight it out with the Taliban fascists? I've yet to meet a forum atheist who can answer this with an enthusiastic unqualified unambiguous yes. There's still time to be the first!

[Choir Loft]

I feel like we've been beating around the bush for... 6000 years!

Can you please either provide some evidence for your supernatural beliefs, or admit that you have no evidence?

If you believe there once was a talking donkey (Numbers 22) could you please provide evidence?

If you believe there once was a zombie invasion in Jerusalem (Mat 27) could you please provide evidence?

If you believe in the flying horse (Islam) could you please provide evidence?

Walking on water, virgin births, radioactive spiders who give you superpowers, turning water into wine, turning iron into gold, demons, goblins, ghosts, hobbits, elves, angels, unicorns and Santa.

Can you PLEASE provide evidence?

It isn't the supply of evidence that is in question......it's the suppression of it.

Evidence isn't evidence when truth is denied. It happened all the time in German courts in the 1930's. Looks like it's happening again in America.

Seig Heil to the Stars and Stripes.

Want evidence? Try this.

The level of lasciviousness and debauchery in America has reached levels surpassing those in the Bible that cried out for divine wrath.

IF GOD DOES NOT JUDGE AMERICA HE WILL HAVE TO APOLOGIZE TO SODOM AND GOMORRAH.

Now sit back and wonder why so many terrible things are happening to our country...or just blow it off as coincidence....until they hit harder and faster like hammer blows. Eventually even the most jaded scoffer will seriously consider whether their sins have caused it. The answer will be 'yes' and the conclusion ought to follow to repent.

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft....

[Choir Loft]

[Replying to Choir Loft]



So you say it isn't the Supply, but the Suppression of it. Well, the good thing for you is this is a Forum on the Internet where YOU can stop that suppression of all that Evidence!! So.......go ahead.


Enlighten us about this "Evidence" you have.

You write that I can "stop that suppression of all that evidence".

You tell me how I can go about stopping the suppression of evidence and I'll give you the evidence you seek.

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...