Let's cut to the chase. Do you have any evidence?

[no evidence no belief]

I feel like we've been beating around the bush for... 6000 years!

Can you please either provide some evidence for your supernatural beliefs, or admit that you have no evidence?

If you believe there once was a talking donkey (Numbers 22) could you please provide evidence?

If you believe there once was a zombie invasion in Jerusalem (Mat 27) could you please provide evidence?

If you believe in the flying horse (Islam) could you please provide evidence?

Walking on water, virgin births, radioactive spiders who give you superpowers, turning water into wine, turning iron into gold, demons, goblins, ghosts, hobbits, elves, angels, unicorns and Santa.

Can you PLEASE provide evidence?

[99percentatheism]

instantc

Isn't your existence evidence enough of a Creator?

Our existence explicitly shows that there are people, nothing more.

Not according to the people that ask questions as to why we are here.

If you think that it implicitly shows that there is a creator as well, it is up to you to support that notion and lay down the relevant thought process.

Why? I am not in the business of convincing atheists of God. I don't have the time to ride a merry-go-round for endless hours. I'd believe in atheism again if anyone could produce a number after 0 x __ = other than a zero.

The path backwards in "time" shows that something is not caused by nothing making it happen.

If we follow the path of time backwards, it will no doubt eventually stop at something. It's a huge assumption on your part to assert that that something is a person.

Assumption? I assume that a person or persons vandalized my car when I see my car's broken windows lying inside my car and footprints not my own or anyone else in my family in the sand in my garage. I assume that based on reason and logic. And even if it turns out that one of my children donned some kids shoes in the neighborhood and broke out the windows, there is still a cause to the effect. Yada, yada, yada, etc., etc., etc..

To simply deny feet in those footsteps is senseless and senselessness. But, if atheism were practiced in silence, then we wouldn't have needless and worthless debates about Theism versus nothingnessism and the world would be a better place.

[10CC]

instantc

Isn't your existence evidence enough of a Creator?

Our existence explicitly shows that there are people, nothing more.

Not according to the people that ask questions as to why we are here.

If you think that it implicitly shows that there is a creator as well, it is up to you to support that notion and lay down the relevant thought process.

Why? I am not in the business of convincing atheists of God. I don't have the time to ride a merry-go-round for endless hours. I'd believe in atheism again if anyone could produce a number after 0 x __ = other than a zero.

The path backwards in "time" shows that something is not caused by nothing making it happen.

If we follow the path of time backwards, it will no doubt eventually stop at something. It's a huge assumption on your part to assert that that something is a person.

Assumption? I assume that a person or persons vandalized my car when I see my car's broken windows lying inside my car and footprints not my own or anyone else in my family in the sand in my garage. I assume that based on reason and logic. And even if it turns out that one of my children donned some kids shoes in the neighborhood and broke out the windows, there is still a cause to the effect. Yada, yada, yada, etc., etc., etc..

To simply deny feet in those footsteps is senseless and senselessness. But, if atheism were practiced in silence, then we wouldn't have needless and worthless debates about Theism versus nothingnessism and the world would be a better place.

You mean.
If you got to run the world the way you want you'd be happy. Too bad. We have a far greater claim to the world and to life that the fantasists have simply because of their fantasies.

[otseng]

I promise, once you hit 8th grade it will all make sense.

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[no evidence no belief]

The evidence itself for each event should be held to the same standard. Otherwise we are discriminating against the evidence on the basis the claim disagrees with our world view. Each event should then either pass or fail on its own merits. Whether or not one is more extraordinary than the other should be irrelevant at the outset.

That's not how it works for anything except conspiracy theory and theist apologetics.

Criminal and civil courts have much different standards of evidence. Criminal is proven beyond a reasonable doubt, and civil is based on the preponderance of the evidence. And for good reason.

Evolution has a tremendous amount of evidence from various disciplines showing us that it does in fact happen. In contrast, a biologist wouldn't have to collect the same amount evidence on the duckbill platypus' mating habits to tell us they reproduce sexually.

Likewise, there's enough evidence to suggest Caesar was a real man who was stabbed to death. It doesn't conflict with the laws of physics and is consistent with real evidence. Anthropologists and archaeologists (scientists) have objective methodologies which theologians and apologists lack.

Carl Sagan popularized the saying, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

This basically means that the more unlikely, important, or seemingly impossible the claim (eg, resurrection by truly dead people), the higher the standard of evidence. I don't even believe video of alleged supernatural events. I invite you to do some critical thinking of your own and consider this information.

You haven't presented sufficient evidence to convince us that Jesus rose from the dead. In fact, you haven't even presented sufficient evidence he actually existed.

Why do so many atheists insist that there is an abundance of evidence for evolution, but they never provide any evidence? So please show me evidence. I don't want to see some book of fiction written by some scientist with a social agenda. I want to see real evidence of evolution. If eye witness accounts of Biblical authors are not admissible evidence for the existence of God, then your eye witness accounts in your science text books are also inadmissible evidence for the existence of evolution. Show me evidence of evolution. I don't want your personal opinions. I want proof. I don't want your textbook myths. I want proof. So, now, prove that evolution is a reality.

Dude, the evidence for evolution is conclusive. The fact that the subject matter is too complicated for you to understand, doesn't mean that the evidence isn't there.

I could give you very strong evidence right now, but I would have to use a bunch of words you don't understand.

Eh, I'll try. Here's the simplest piece of evidence for evolution I can think of: A second inactive centomere and a centrally located talomere are present in human chromosome 2.

There you go. Did nothing for you, right? I promise, once you hit 8th grade it will all make sense.

I'm sorry, but substituting one claim for another claim is not evidence. Please show me the evidence that "a second inactive centomere and a centrally located talomere are present in human chromosome 2".

This is just another claim. Now, prove your claim.

Buddy, I'm sorry that this frustrates you, but this is not just "some claim".

The same DNA-detection technology that allows us to determine if somebody is somebody else's father, and allows us to solve crimes, and allows us to discover whether you have some kind of genetic disease, is also used to determine the veracity of the claim above.

I mean, seriously, you can take a genetic sample to a lab, they will inspect it with the technology above, and they will be able to tell you the person's ethnicity and gender, they will be able to tell you if he has Down Syndrome or not, whether he has muscular distrophy or not, and hundreds of other diseases and genital defects. They will be able to tell you the person's eye color, whether he has mid-falangial hair, a widow's peak and whether he is able to make a "U" shape with his tongue.

You can discover if this is true YOURSELF. TODAY. Go to a pharmacy and buy a kit to collect mouth lining cells. Scrape the inside of the mouth of a friend or family member of yours, by so doing you will obtain some cells containing DNA information. Take the stuff to the nearest lab in your town and for a few thousand dollars they will run the tests for you, and tell you all these genetic details about your friend, without ever having met him/her.

So, go do that, and once the lab technician has proven beyond any doubt that he is able to obtain detailed and accurate information from the genetic material, and that he is able to truly explore the details of DNA, then pay him another couple thousand dollars to find out if there is a second inactive centomere and a centrally located talomere in your friend's chromosome 2.

The claim that "a second inactive centomere and a centrally located talomere are present in human chromosome 2" has been proven to be true CONCLUSIVELY. And it's evidnece for evolution.

Now please show me evidence of the supernatural.

[instantc]

Isn't your existence evidence enough of a Creator?

Our existence explicitly shows that there are people, nothing more.

Not according to the people that ask questions as to why we are here.

Emphasis on the word explicitly.

If you think that it implicitly shows that there is a creator as well, it is up to you to support that notion and lay down the relevant thought process.

Why? I am not in the business of convincing atheists of God. I don't have the time to ride a merry-go-round for endless hours.

As a claimant, it is still your burden of proof, regardless of whether or not you are willing to carry it out.

If we follow the path of time backwards, it will no doubt eventually stop at something. It's a huge assumption on your part to assert that that something is a person.

I assume that a person or persons vandalized my car when I see my car's broken windows lying inside my car and footprints not my own or anyone else in my family in the sand in my garage. I assume that based on reason and logic.

I agree with your conclusion regarding vandalism, but I'm afraid it does nothing to render my above point invalid.

[no evidence no belief]

I feel like we've been beating around the bush for... 6000 years!

Can you please either provide some evidence for your supernatural beliefs, or admit that you have no evidence?

If you believe there once was a talking donkey (Numbers 22) could you please provide evidence?

If you believe there once was a zombie invasion in Jerusalem (Mat 27) could you please provide evidence?

If you believe in the flying horse (Islam) could you please provide evidence?

Walking on water, virgin births, radioactive spiders who give you superpowers, turning water into wine, turning iron into gold, demons, goblins, ghosts, hobbits, elves, angels, unicorns and Santa.

Can you PLEASE provide evidence?

Isn't your existence evidence enough of a Creator?

no

If not, why not?

My existence, and the existence of everything we can see, touch, hear, feel or otherwise detect, clearly indicates that the universe works according to laws of physics.

The supernatural is by definition something that violates the laws of physics.

So, to claim that the fact that everything seems to operate within the laws of physics is evidence that things operate outside the laws of physics is as absurd as saying.... well it's as absurd as claiming that the fact that everything operates within the laws of physics is evidence that things operate outside the laws of physics.

The natural is evidence of the natural.

The natural is NOT evidence of the supernatural.

An apple is evidence of an apple tree. It's not evidence of a magical orange-to-apple transmuter from a different dimension, operated by a talking donkey who cures cancer by farting on people.


My existence is definitely evidence of some NATURAL event that triggered it. All evidence points to my parents doing it 9 months before I was born.

You're going to ask "what caused them?", I will say "their parents", and we will inevitable go all the way back to the Big Bang.

You will say "What caused the Big Bang", I will say "I don't know" and you will say "See??? That proves god".

Then I will say "That's an argument from ignorance", provide you with the link to a wikipedia page about logical fallacies, make an analogy to cavemen not knowing what caused lightning and coming to the conclusion that it was a man in the clouds on the basis of their ignorance, you will get frustrated, try to change the subject, and that will be that.

Haven't we done this at least three times? Why go through it again?

[Sonofason]

[Replying to post 1482 by no evidence no belief]

no evidence no belief wrote:

Dude, the evidence for evolution is conclusive. The fact that the subject matter is too complicated for you to understand, doesn't mean that the evidence isn't there.

I could give you very strong evidence right now, but I would have to use a bunch of words you don't understand.

Eh, I'll try. Here's the simplest piece of evidence for evolution I can think of: A second inactive centomere and a centrally located talomere are present in human chromosome 2.
There you go. Did nothing for you, right? I promise, once you hit 8th grade it will all make sense.

Sonofason wrote:

I'm sorry, but substituting one claim for another claim is not evidence. Please show me the evidence that "a second inactive centomere and a centrally located talomere are present in human chromosome 2".

This is just another claim. Now, prove your claim.

no evidence no belief wrote:

Buddy, I'm sorry that this frustrates you, but this is not just "some claim".

So far, everything you have submitted appears to be a claim to me. I am asking for evidence. I am not asking for claims of evidence.

no evidence no belief wrote:

The same DNA-detection technology that allows us to determine if somebody is somebody else's father, and allows us to solve crimes, and allows us to discover whether you have some kind of genetic disease, is also used to determine the veracity of the claim above.

And here you submit yet another claim. No please show the evidence that The same DNA-detection technology that allows us to determine if somebody is somebody else's father, and allows us to solve crimes, and allows us to discover whether you have some kind of genetic disease...

no evidence no belief wrote:

I mean, seriously, you can take a genetic sample to a lab, they will inspect it with the technology above, and they will be able to tell you the person's ethnicity and gender, they will be able to tell you if he has Down Syndrome or not, whether he has muscular distrophy or not, and hundreds of other diseases and genital defects. They will be able to tell you the person's eye color, whether he has mid-falangial hair, a widow's peak and whether he is able to make a "U" shape with his tongue.

And another claim. When are you going to present evidence, instead of claims of evidence? I do not doubt that evidence may exist that these claims are true, but you are the one making this claim, and I am asking for your evidence?

no evidence no belief wrote:

You can discover if this is true YOURSELF. TODAY. Go to a pharmacy and buy a kit to collect mouth lining cells. Scrape the inside of the mouth of a friend or family member of yours, by so doing you will obtain some cells containing DNA information. Take the stuff to the nearest lab in your town and for a few thousand dollars they will run the tests for you, and tell you all these genetic details about your friend, without ever having met him/her.

And now you are telling me that if I want evidence for your claims, I have to go out and find it for myself? What sort of evidence is this, that you cannot provide, to support your own claims, that I should have to go out of my way to discover it for myself?

no evidence no belief wrote:

So, go do that, and once the lab technician has proven beyond any doubt that he is able to obtain detailed and accurate information from the genetic material, and that he is able to truly explore the details of DNA, then pay him another couple thousand dollars to find out if there is a second inactive centomere and a centrally located talomere in your friend's chromosome 2.

And now you demand that if I want the evidence, I must spend thousands of dollars to see it?

no evidence no belief wrote:

The claim that "a second inactive centomere and a centrally located talomere are present in human chromosome 2" has been proven to be true CONCLUSIVELY. And it's evidnece for evolution.

I get it. You don't have any evidence that evolution is true.

I for one have no problem believing that evolution is true. It seems to me to be a rather reasonable theory. If there should be evidence in existence that shows that evolution is true, I have not seen it. And apparently, you haven't either. Sometimes we just have to have faith in other people. That's all I'm asking of you. I have evidence that God exists. I cannot share this evidence with you, just as you cannot share your supposed evidence of evolution with me. I get it. But if you were to love and obey God, as I have often suggested to others on this site, you would have your evidence of God, and you won't have to spend thousands of dollars to do it.

[Danmark]

Isn't your existence evidence enough of a Creator?

If not, why not?

The path backwards in "time" shows that something is not caused by nothing making it happen. Isn't it better to ask why a particular God, should be considered the Creator? In the apologetics section, isn't it better to ask for "proof" of why this ir that God should be considered the authentic one?

You're way off here 99. First, your existence is not evidence of a creator. This simplistic, ancient, limited thinking demonstrates poor logic and unsupported assumptions. It assumes that the universe was created out of nothing, while assuming God has always been.

If you can assume 'god' has always existed, why not assume the universe has always existed? The latter is the much better and only supported assumption because we KNOW the universe exists, and we have only speculation that a 'god' exists. Even most Christians agree that 99.99% of the 'gods' are concepts created by man. The non theist just says, "Add one more to that list, sir."

[Danmark]

I get it. You don't have any evidence that evolution is true.

I for one have no problem believing that evolution is true. It seems to me to be a rather reasonable theory. If there should be evidence in existence that shows that evolution is true, I have not seen it. ...

You appear to be making contradictory statements. You claim there is no evidence that evolution is true, yet you also say it is a reasonable theory.

Let's clarify.
Are you saying there is no evidence to support the theory of evolution?

Are you saying there is a reasonable amount of evidence to support the theory of evolution, but it fails to prove evolution is 'true' absolutely?

[no evidence no belief]

[Replying to post 1482 by no evidence no belief]

no evidence no belief wrote:

Dude, the evidence for evolution is conclusive. The fact that the subject matter is too complicated for you to understand, doesn't mean that the evidence isn't there.

I could give you very strong evidence right now, but I would have to use a bunch of words you don't understand.

Eh, I'll try. Here's the simplest piece of evidence for evolution I can think of: A second inactive centomere and a centrally located talomere are present in human chromosome 2.
There you go. Did nothing for you, right? I promise, once you hit 8th grade it will all make sense.

Sonofason wrote:

I'm sorry, but substituting one claim for another claim is not evidence. Please show me the evidence that "a second inactive centomere and a centrally located talomere are present in human chromosome 2".

This is just another claim. Now, prove your claim.

no evidence no belief wrote:

Buddy, I'm sorry that this frustrates you, but this is not just "some claim".

So far, everything you have submitted appears to be a claim to me. I am asking for evidence. I am not asking for claims of evidence.

no evidence no belief wrote:

The same DNA-detection technology that allows us to determine if somebody is somebody else's father, and allows us to solve crimes, and allows us to discover whether you have some kind of genetic disease, is also used to determine the veracity of the claim above.

And here you submit yet another claim. No please show the evidence that The same DNA-detection technology that allows us to determine if somebody is somebody else's father, and allows us to solve crimes, and allows us to discover whether you have some kind of genetic disease...

no evidence no belief wrote:

I mean, seriously, you can take a genetic sample to a lab, they will inspect it with the technology above, and they will be able to tell you the person's ethnicity and gender, they will be able to tell you if he has Down Syndrome or not, whether he has muscular distrophy or not, and hundreds of other diseases and genital defects. They will be able to tell you the person's eye color, whether he has mid-falangial hair, a widow's peak and whether he is able to make a "U" shape with his tongue.

And another claim. When are you going to present evidence, instead of claims of evidence? I do not doubt that evidence may exist that these claims are true, but you are the one making this claim, and I am asking for your evidence?

no evidence no belief wrote:

You can discover if this is true YOURSELF. TODAY. Go to a pharmacy and buy a kit to collect mouth lining cells. Scrape the inside of the mouth of a friend or family member of yours, by so doing you will obtain some cells containing DNA information. Take the stuff to the nearest lab in your town and for a few thousand dollars they will run the tests for you, and tell you all these genetic details about your friend, without ever having met him/her.

And now you are telling me that if I want evidence for your claims, I have to go out and find it for myself? What sort of evidence is this, that you cannot provide, to support your own claims, that I should have to go out of my way to discover it for myself?

no evidence no belief wrote:

So, go do that, and once the lab technician has proven beyond any doubt that he is able to obtain detailed and accurate information from the genetic material, and that he is able to truly explore the details of DNA, then pay him another couple thousand dollars to find out if there is a second inactive centomere and a centrally located talomere in your friend's chromosome 2.

And now you demand that if I want the evidence, I must spend thousands of dollars to see it?

no evidence no belief wrote:

The claim that "a second inactive centomere and a centrally located talomere are present in human chromosome 2" has been proven to be true CONCLUSIVELY. And it's evidnece for evolution.

I get it. You don't have any evidence that evolution is true.

I for one have no problem believing that evolution is true. It seems to me to be a rather reasonable theory. If there should be evidence in existence that shows that evolution is true, I have not seen it. And apparently, you haven't either. Sometimes we just have to have faith in other people. That's all I'm asking of you. I have evidence that God exists. I cannot share this evidence with you, just as you cannot share your supposed evidence of evolution with me. I get it. But if you were to love and obey God, as I have often suggested to others on this site, you would have your evidence of God, and you won't have to spend thousands of dollars to do it.

Dude, you just won the gold medal for false equivalency.

I am providing evidence that you could corroborate easily with a simple google search, and which you could confirm with almost complete certainty, if you cared enough to spend some time, money and energy educating yourself on the facts and researching the subject.

If I were trying to convince you the earth is round, I'd probably say "rent a chartered airplane, go to the equator, bang a left and keep going east, and eventually you'll get back to the same spot you started from", and you'd say "What? Are you saying that I have to spend money to verify this evidence? All you do is talk and tell me I should think for myself. Show me the evidence"

This is you:


Let's do this buddy:
How about you tell me your name and city of residence. I will buy you a first class ticket to come to New York. A limo will take you from your home to your airport, and there will be a limo waiting for you at the airport in NYC which will take you to a DNA testing lab in Manhattan. You will go there, and provide a DNA sample you will have PERSONALLY selected from anybody in the world. They will analyze this microscopic sample, and from it tell you all sorts of details about the person. This will constitute EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE that DNA analysis technology works.

While you're waiting for the results, I will pay for a hotel room right on Central Park, give you a stipend of $1000/day, plus fully reimburse you of any money you may have lost from taking time off work.

In addition to that, I will agree to pay you $1,000,000 in cash IF it turns out that the lab technicians are NOT able to provide accurate data about your friend from the DNA sample. I will give you this money, if you agree to give me $100,000 IF the lab technicians ARE able to provide accurate data.

If you truly cared about knowing the truth, and if you truly believed there was no good evidence for evolution, you would take this deal, right? Ball is in your court.

By the way, if you wanted to offer me a similar deal revolving around you providing empirical evidence for the supernatural, I'd take it in a heartbeat.

Are we done?