Moral objective values...

[whisperit]

[font=Verdana]In one of his papers, Dr. William Lane Craig (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Lane_Craig) argues moral objective values is to say something is right or wrong independently of whether anybody believes it to be so. If God does not exist, what is the foundation for moral objective values?[/font][/url]

[Artie]

The Nazi's either employed a Darwinian method towards weaker individuals of the species and are "guilty" of absolutely nothing but failing to win the world war, or they are "evil monsters" based on the right and wrong God instilled in His creation.

No they simply followed the Christian Martin Luther who "describes Jews as a "base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth."[1] Luther wrote that they are "full of the devil's feces ... which they wallow in like swine,"[2] and the synagogue is an "incorrigible whore and an evil slut".[3]

In the first ten sections of the treatise, Luther expounds, at considerable length, upon his views concerning Jews and Judaism and how these compare against Christians and Christianity. Following this exposition, Section XI of the treatise advises Christians to carry out seven remedial actions. These are -
1.for Jewish synagogues and schools to be burned to the ground, and the remnants buried out of sight;
2.for houses owned by Jews to be likewise razed, and the owners made to live in agricultural outbuildings;
3.for their religious writings to be taken away;
4.for rabbis to be forbidden to preach, and to be executed if they do;
5.for safe conduct on the roads to be abolished for Jews;
6.for usury to be prohibited, and for all silver and gold to be removed and "put aside for safekeeping"; and
7.for the Jewish population to be put to work as agricultural slave laborers.[4]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jews_and_Their_Lies

The Nazis just killed them instead.

[Artie]

.

You are a little dictator aren't you, claiming that because you know something is wrong it is wrong and everybody should know the exact same thing you know. What would you do with people who know something different from what you know?

Do you really need me or someone else to tell you that the Holocaust was wrong?

Why don't you tell me exactly why the Holocaust was wrong? Because you know it was? Can you give me a little more rational and objective reason? I noticed that you think that because you know something everybody else should know the same thing. What if they don't "know" the same thing? Will you take action?

[10CC]

Objective moral values would of necessity apply to any god that exists, yes?

[Artie]

Objective moral values would of necessity apply to any god that exists, yes?

Yes. Any god, any human, any alien, anybody. Otherwise they wouldn't be objective. Everybody would have to abide by them. Or are there different sets of objective moral values for gods, humans, and aliens? Maybe "thou shalt not murder" is an objective moral evolutionary value that applies to any advanced civilization, human or alien, simply because if everybody had killed each other they would never have evolved an advanced civilization to begin with.

[10CC]

Objective moral values would of necessity apply to any god that exists, yes?

Yes. Any god, any human, any alien, anybody. Otherwise they wouldn't be objective. Everybody would have to abide by them. Or are there different sets of objective moral values for gods, humans, and aliens?

Sounds subjective to me.

[Artie]

Objective moral values would of necessity apply to any god that exists, yes?

Yes. Any god, any human, any alien, anybody. Otherwise they wouldn't be objective. Everybody would have to abide by them. Or are there different sets of objective moral values for gods, humans, and aliens?

Sounds subjective to me.

No, the moral values wouldn't have been subjectively invented by the gods, humans or aliens. Like "Thou Shalt Not Murder" must be an objective moral value common to every evolved advanced civilization. If not they would have killed each other and not evolved to become advanced in the first place.

[olavisjo]

.

Why don't you tell me exactly why the Holocaust was wrong? Because you know it was? Can you give me a little more rational and objective reason? I noticed that you think that because you know something everybody else should know the same thing. What if they don't "know" the same thing? Will you take action?

Take another look at the evidence presented...

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 588#606588

If after watching that you still don't know why the Holocaust was wrong, then once again you have found the 'fatal' flaw in my argument. And again, you win the debate.

[Realworldjack]

[font=Verdana]In one of his papers, Dr. William Lane Craig (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Lane_Craig) argues moral objective values is to say something is right or wrong independently of whether anybody believes it to be so. If God does not exist, what is the foundation for moral objective values?[/font][/url]

If God does not exist, then there is no foundation for moral objective values. But listen, this is the same old worn out argument. All that has changed is the wording. In the past, the question was worded,

Is there any such thing as absolute truth?

This question was easily answered, by asking those who absolutely claimed there was no absolute truth, if they were absolutely sure? The argument was over at that point. Now, it seems to me, since those who were opposed to any sort of absolute truth, could not win that argument, because of the way in which it was worded, they have simply reworded the question. Now the question is,

Is there a foundation for moral objective values?

As I said, this is the same question, just different wording. Think about it. Is there absolute truth? Is there a foundation for moral objectives? In reality, it comes to the question of,

Are there certain things, that are true for everyone of us? And ultimately, this will lead to the real question of,

Is there a God, who not only determines truth, but also is the truth? If there is such a God, then there is absolute truth, and there is a foundation for moral objectives. If there is no God, then maybe not.

[10CC]

Objective moral values would of necessity apply to any god that exists, yes?

Yes. Any god, any human, any alien, anybody. Otherwise they wouldn't be objective. Everybody would have to abide by them. Or are there different sets of objective moral values for gods, humans, and aliens?

Sounds subjective to me.

No, the moral values wouldn't have been subjectively invented by the gods, humans or aliens. Like "Thou Shalt Not Murder" must be an objective moral value common to every evolved advanced civilization. If not they would have killed each other and not evolved to become advanced in the first place.

Bible god has no problem with mass murder. Is "thou shalt not murder" then objective or not?

[Artie]

Objective moral values would of necessity apply to any god that exists, yes?

Yes. Any god, any human, any alien, anybody. Otherwise they wouldn't be objective. Everybody would have to abide by them. Or are there different sets of objective moral values for gods, humans, and aliens?

Sounds subjective to me.

No, the moral values wouldn't have been subjectively invented by the gods, humans or aliens. Like "Thou Shalt Not Murder" must be an objective moral value common to every evolved advanced civilization. If not they would have killed each other and not evolved to become advanced in the first place.

Bible god has no problem with mass murder. Is "thou shalt not murder" then objective or not?

Bible God goes against objective morality then?