A Good God would not send a decent Atheist to hell.

[marketandchurch]

This was the post that got me banned on Christian Chat:

Then God doesn't care about the goodness and decency of an atheist, a buddhist, etc. And if that is the message you are telling me, then there is no point to being a good person. There is no point of fighting on behalf of the oppressed, as America did, in WWII. The only purpose of fighting the Japanese, and beating back the Nazi's should have been so that we could bring more people to christ...is that what your saying? Should America be sending food and aid to heathens in Haiti? Should America be helping out muslims in disaster relief fallowing a natural disaster, unless it is to bring them to Christ? Is a person's only value to you, there potential to become a convert? They have no humanity beyond that?

You have an old testament my_adonai, and you are to be as obsessed with its obsessions, as you are with the new testament's. And the Old Testament's preoccupation is fighting evil, championing the good, and making a more ethical existence, during this lifetime.

And unless you think Christians alone can make this lifetime a little better, a little less genocidal, with a little less starvation, a little less torture, etc, it is an unethical message to peddle, that a good God would demand goodness, unless one doesn't believe in his son. Then one's goodness is pointless. One might as well not care about not gossiping behind other people's back, destroying someone's dignity in public, sleeping with a coworker's wife, extorting an elderly couple that one was hired to help, raping a pre-pubcescent child, killing another human being because of their skin color, etc, etc, etc.

Apparently, I was challenging people's faith, and was just there to be anti-christian, in saying that a Good God would not send to hell decent people, simply because they do not believe in his Son. I got all sorts of less then appetizing replies, saying I'm screwed for eternity, if I don't accept Jesus. I feel that I am not alone, even within the Christian community, in thinking this as I've heard many catholic priests, and mainstream protestant pastors, while I was growing up, distancing themselves from such a belief. I don't know where people on this forum stand, but I'll put it up for debate:

• Topic of Debate: A Good God would not send to hell a decent person, simply for not believing in his son.

If you agree with me, and are a Christian, please square your response with the rest of the New Testament. What I'm looking for is scriptural consistency to back up your position, and more importantly, how one will then re-read the entire message of the New Testament, if one wants to hold that position. I say this because I don't want you to drop scripture, simply because it doesn't conform to your own personal beliefs, but I am looking for how one can reinterpret the New testament, if one drops that central tenant, & for the rest of us, impediment, to everlasting life. Is there room for this? Or is the New Testament rigidly in the affirmative about Christ being the only way to heaven? Which is fine. That's their theology, but let's see where this goes.

[JohnA]

It has already been pointed out that knowing something is not coersion or dictation. In order to negate free will, you have to have something that hinders it. Knowledge of something doesn't hinder free will.

"Knowledge" of the future does.

The future is something unknown.

If even one being knows the future, then everything is known and fixed, and there is no free will.

I agree with the above. You said it much better than I did (and you taught me something).

But that isn't true by definition, thus man and the angels have true free will.

But this ^^ I do not get.
Are you just saying that if this fictional deity really has foreknowledge then humans have no free will. But humans have "free-will" because it is just definite into existence (but not real)?

Help me, I want to learn from you.

[Danmark]

If even one being knows the future, then everything is known and fixed, and there is no free will.

Some make that claim.
I think it overly simplistic.

We can all agree that 'knowledge' is a separate and distinct concept from 'event.'

I may have knowledge of some event, but that knowledge IS not the event. My knowledge did not cause the event. The event had its own independent causation.

This does not change, whether the event is in the past, the present, or the future.

Hundreds of thousands of pages have been written on the free will problem, even exclusive of the idea of an omniscient, omnipotent God.

The arguments for and against free will have circulated through the intellectual world for millennia, with minor variations. We may sympathize with André Gide, who once mused that all the arguments about free will have already been made, but we must continue repeating them because nobody listens.
http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/11-04-27/

[myth-one.com]

It has already been pointed out that knowing something is not coersion or dictation. In order to negate free will, you have to have something that hinders it. Knowledge of something doesn't hinder free will.

"Knowledge" of the future does.

The future is something unknown.

If even one being knows the future, then everything is known and fixed, and there is no free will.

But that isn't true by definition, thus man and the angels have true free will.

But this ^^ I do not get.
Are you just saying that if this fictional deity really has foreknowledge then humans have no free will.

The Bible is the authoritive source within this subforum, so I would have to scratch the word [strike]fictional[/strike]. God has foreknowledge that His plan will be enacted and succeed. He will do His part in the future. Other than that, I would agree that your statement above is functionally true. Mankind will split into two groups -- one small and one large. God knows these two future groups only as believers and non-believers. Each human decides which group he or she will be in -- not God. In fact, if you decide not to participate, that's fine with God. He will honor your choice.

=========================================================================

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

This defines the complete original creation of the heaven and the earth. I claim this because verse two then describes the earth's condition at sometime after being created as follows:

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. (Genesis 1:1-2)

God never created anything without form, void, and dark. Everything He ever created was described as good.

So what happened to cause the earth to reach this condition?

In the book of Luke, when Satan tempted Jesus for forty days in the desert, Satan offered Jesus power over all the kingdoms of the earth:

And the devil, taking him up into a high mountain, showed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whosoever I will I give it. If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.

So Satan was given power over the earth sometime after its original creation. But Satan wanted more power, so he rebelled against God. It was this rebellion against God's authority that caused the earth to become without form, void, and dark.

God intervened, returned to a decimated earth and recreated it beginning in Genesis 1:3. God then created mortal man and gave him dominion over the earth:

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

But why create either angels or man with freedom of choice?

The job requirement of both was to have dominion over and maintain the earth. To do so both must be equipped to react to any circumstance and make appropriate choices to maintain the earth in good condition as it was created.

One qualification required to be successful in their job assignment is the freedom to make appropriate choices.

Without freedom of choice, they would be poorly designed for the purpose of their creation.

But humans have "free-will" because it is just definite into existence (but not real)?

Something not real cannot be had.

[myth-one.com]

If even one being knows the future, then everything is known and fixed, and there is no free will.

Some make that claim.
I think it overly simplistic.

We can all agree that 'knowledge' is a separate and distinct concept from 'event.'

I may have knowledge of some event, but that knowledge IS not the event. My knowledge did not cause the event. The event had its own independent causation.

This does not change, whether the event is in the past, the present, or the future.

Please describe a future event which you attended or of which you have knowledge.

Event: Something that takes place; an occurrence.

Future "events" have not taken place.

[Danmark]

If even one being knows the future, then everything is known and fixed, and there is no free will.

Some make that claim.
I think it overly simplistic.

We can all agree that 'knowledge' is a separate and distinct concept from 'event.'

I may have knowledge of some event, but that knowledge IS not the event. My knowledge did not cause the event. The event had its own independent causation.

This does not change, whether the event is in the past, the present, or the future.

Please describe a future event which you attended or of which you have knowledge.

Event: Something that takes place; an occurrence.

Future "events" have not taken place.

Exactly. They have not taken place any more than an omniscient god who knows the future exists.

But when you posit this absurd notion of an all knowing, all powerful 'god' this is the kind of thing you get, future events that have already taken place. It's your faith not mine.

[JohnA]

If even one being knows the future, then everything is known and fixed, and there is no free will.

Some make that claim.
I think it overly simplistic.

We can all agree that 'knowledge' is a separate and distinct concept from 'event.'

I may have knowledge of some event, but that knowledge IS not the event. My knowledge did not cause the event. The event had its own independent causation.

This does not change, whether the event is in the past, the present, or the future.

Please describe a future event which you attended or of which you have knowledge.

Event: Something that takes place; an occurrence.

Future "events" have not taken place.

Exactly. They have not taken place any more than an omniscient god who knows the future exists.

But when you posit this absurd notion of an all knowing, all powerful 'god' this is the kind of thing you get, future events that have already taken place. It's your faith not mine.

Danmark,

If this omniscient god has foreknowledge, surely then he knows of all future events that will take place.

I have made an entry in my diary for a meeting next week. That is a my belief that I can justify and I can show evidence of it is true (my calender, and other attendees acceptance of the invite), so it is knowledge (not a belief nor faith). This is meeting is a future event that has not yet taken place.
Are you saying that this god does not know that this meeting is going to happen or not?
If so, then this god has either no foreknowledge or faulty foreknowledge.
If this god knows it will / or will not take place, then this god has perfect foreknowledge.

Again, I am not saying this god pulled the strings, made me create the meeting invite by controlling my thoughts and actions. Rather, think of it as a string that this god tensed & let go (that are the events that put things into motion), the god does not interfere with the string vibrations, but can predict exactly how it will vibrate. This 'meeting event' is merely vibration X of all possible n finite vibrations.

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 560 by myth-one.com]

To add to the angels having free will:

Praise and Worship:
Hebrews 1:6 points out that angels worship the Lord. We also see the heavenly host praising God in Luke 2:13–14. Forced worship and praise is not real worship and praise which is only made real by the free will of the worshipper. A tape player can sing praises of worship but it is not worshipping.

Holiness:
Mark 8:38 If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father's glory with the holy angels. Holiness is not real if forced, it is only real if it is from a free will decision to be holy. A rock never sins but it is not holy...

peace, Ted

[Danmark]

If even one being knows the future, then everything is known and fixed, and there is no free will.

Some make that claim.
I think it overly simplistic.

We can all agree that 'knowledge' is a separate and distinct concept from 'event.'

I may have knowledge of some event, but that knowledge IS not the event. My knowledge did not cause the event. The event had its own independent causation.

This does not change, whether the event is in the past, the present, or the future.

Please describe a future event which you attended or of which you have knowledge.

Event: Something that takes place; an occurrence.

Future "events" have not taken place.

Exactly. They have not taken place any more than an omniscient god who knows the future exists.

But when you posit this absurd notion of an all knowing, all powerful 'god' this is the kind of thing you get, future events that have already taken place. It's your faith not mine.

Danmark,

If this omniscient god has foreknowledge, surely then he knows of all future events that will take place.

I have made an entry in my diary for a meeting next week. That is a my belief that I can justify and I can show evidence of it is true (my calender, and other attendees acceptance of the invite), so it is knowledge (not a belief nor faith). This is meeting is a future event that has not yet taken place.
Are you saying that this god does not know that this meeting is going to happen or not?
If so, then this god has either no foreknowledge or faulty foreknowledge.
If this god knows it will / or will not take place, then this god has perfect foreknowledge.

Again, I am not saying this god pulled the strings, made me create the meeting invite by controlling my thoughts and actions. Rather, think of it as a string that this god tensed & let go (that are the events that put things into motion), the god does not interfere with the string vibrations, but can predict exactly how it will vibrate. This 'meeting event' is merely vibration X of all possible n finite vibrations.

There is no god. This a 'How many angels can stand on the head of a pin' question.

[Danmark]

[Replying to post 560 by myth-one.com]

To add to the angels having free will:

Praise and Worship:
Hebrews 1:6 points out that angels worship the Lord. We also see the heavenly host praising God in Luke 2:13–14. Forced worship and praise is not real worship and praise which is only made real by the free will of the worshipper. A tape player can sing praises of worship but it is not worshipping.

Holiness:
Mark 8:38 If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father's glory with the holy angels. Holiness is not real if forced, it is only real if it is from a free will decision to be holy. A rock never sins but it is not holy...

peace, Ted

I was about 13 when I asked our youth pastor why humans were created since Angels had free will [my argument for their free will was that Lucifer decided to oppose God].

The pastor had a pretty clever answer. He said, "I think you would be a good theology student."
His ploy worked. The flattery worked. I didn't press it.

[JohnA]

It has already been pointed out that knowing something is not coersion or dictation. In order to negate free will, you have to have something that hinders it. Knowledge of something doesn't hinder free will.

"Knowledge" of the future does.

The future is something unknown.

If even one being knows the future, then everything is known and fixed, and there is no free will.

But that isn't true by definition, thus man and the angels have true free will.

But this ^^ I do not get.
Are you just saying that if this fictional deity really has foreknowledge then humans have no free will.

The Bible is the authoritive source within this subforum, so I would have to scratch the word [strike]fictional[/strike]. God has foreknowledge that His plan will be enacted and succeed. He will do His part in the future. Other than that, I would agree that your statement above is functionally true. Mankind will split into two groups -- one small and one large. God knows these two future groups only as believers and non-believers. Each human decides which group he or she will be in -- not God. In fact, if you decide not to participate, that's fine with God. He will honor your choice.

=========================================================================

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

This defines the complete original creation of the heaven and the earth. I claim this because verse two then describes the earth's condition at sometime after being created as follows:

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. (Genesis 1:1-2)

God never created anything without form, void, and dark. Everything He ever created was described as good.

So what happened to cause the earth to reach this condition?

In the book of Luke, when Satan tempted Jesus for forty days in the desert, Satan offered Jesus power over all the kingdoms of the earth:

And the devil, taking him up into a high mountain, showed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whosoever I will I give it. If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.

So Satan was given power over the earth sometime after its original creation. But Satan wanted more power, so he rebelled against God. It was this rebellion against God's authority that caused the earth to become without form, void, and dark.

God intervened, returned to a decimated earth and recreated it beginning in Genesis 1:3. God then created mortal man and gave him dominion over the earth:

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

But why create either angels or man with freedom of choice?

The job requirement of both was to have dominion over and maintain the earth. To do so both must be equipped to react to any circumstance and make appropriate choices to maintain the earth in good condition as it was created.

One qualification required to be successful in their job assignment is the freedom to make appropriate choices.

Without freedom of choice, they would be poorly designed for the purpose of their creation.

But humans have "free-will" because it is just definite into existence (but not real)?

Something not real cannot be had.

Am slow, I admit. You post is very confusing to me.

You are arguing both points:
God's omniscience contradicts human free will. And
Humans (and angles) have free will.

That makes no sense.

Furthermore, this is the first time that someone could explain Gen 1:2 to me. But your explanation makes no sense. Your scripture verses does not agree with your interpretation. I will only pick one aspect and show you what I mean (remember, I am more interested in this God's omniscience contradicts human free will than your subjective opinion of scripture).

Genesis 1:26
If this god made Adam and Eve in his image, then they were omniscient. But Adam and Eve sinned, so they can not be omniscient. This means that (pic one):
This god is not omniscient = he did not know that Adam and Eve would sin.
This god is omniscient, but created them knowing in advance they would sin, making this god a little evil bugger for dooming all mankind from the go.
This god did not create these people in his image.