Grace and Truth

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Volbrigade
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Grace and Truth

Post #1

Post by Volbrigade »

Where does the heart of Christianity lie? What is Christianitys central message? What does it mean to be a Christian?

These questions have sparked a debate that has raged throughout Christendom since the 19th century. It was during that century that the seeds of materialism and humanism, planted during The Enlightenment, bore the fruit of Darwinism and Marxism. Those philosophies, and the atheistic worldview that they are the expression of, have had a profound influence " and not just in the halls of secular academia and the popular culture. They have also exerted their influence on the church, in the form of ideological movements that have become pronounced among liberal theologians, and within the seminaries of many mainline denominations.

There is a marked spirit of compromise that affects large segments of the church today. It can be expressed by an attitude that says where The Bible comes into conflict with accepted ideas of natural and social science, the Bible must give way. This is referred to as conferring to modern science a magisterial (or ruling) role over Scripture; that is, where there is perceived disagreement between the two, science must prevail. When in fact, The Bible " which is the immutable, unchanging, inspired Word of God " is in a magisterial role in regard to science. Science, and the facts it presents, are constantly changing. The accepted science of today are the discredited theories and beliefs of tomorrow. The proper role of science is in a ministerial (subordinate) role to the eternal truth of Scripture.

Too often, however, this is not the view that prevails in local congregations, or is expressed from the pulpit. And well over a hundred years of encroaching compromise and relativism within the mainline churches with regard to the authority of Scripture have taken their toll; as manifested in the weakened influence of Christianity, and its relevance within the culture; its adulterated evangelical mission; and in the undermined faith of countless churchgoers. The result has been dwindling church attendance; the rise of postmodern movements that seek to redefine Christianity (such as The Emergent Church); and the open embrace of anti-Biblical positions (e.g., same-sex marriage).

We live in a time when the central question what is the heart, message, and meaning of Christianity? has escaped the confines of academia, and is being wrestled with among disputing factions of all those who call themselves Christian -- factions that in many cases propose fundamentally differing versions of what that term means, and what the truth of Jesus Christ is.

The fallout associated with conceding a magisterial role to science over Scripture is widespread. Even many conservative evangelicals join with their traditional counterparts in seeking to define and interpret whole passages of Scripture in a way that corresponds with the accepted science of our time. Nowhere is this tendency to compromise more pronounced than with the first chapters of the Book of Genesis. Whereas the Bible is explicit in referring to the creation of the heavens and the earth in six ordinary 24-hour days, successive generations of believers who have been indoctrinated into a billions of years paradigm (which is grounded in materialism) have sought to reconcile the Bible with accepted scientific fact. This attempt at reconciliation " which includes ideas such as the Day/Age Theory, the Framework Hypothesis, and various Gap theories " has led to great confusion within churches. It calls into open question some of the central doctrines of Christianity.

But God is not the author of confusion (1Corinthians14:33). And we know that Jesus Christ, the Eternal Word, by whom all things were made (John 1:3), dwelt among men in grace and truth (John 1:14); and that the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ (John 1:17).

Self-evident from these passages, and many others " indeed, from the whole counsel of God " is that central to what we believe, as Christians, are these dual realities of grace and truth. They are, metaphorically speaking, as essential as time and space " and are as likewise inseparable.

It has been said that Justice is getting what we deserve; Mercy is not getting what we deserve; and Grace is being given what we dont deserve. We know that the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), and that the soul that sins shall die (Ezekiel 18:20); we also know that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23), because sin entered the world through one man (a real, historical Adam), and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned (Romans 5:12). Therefore, we are all under judgment and condemnation; and justice demands that we pay for our sins.

And that is what Jesus did for us on the Cross " He paid the price for our sins " a price we could never hope to pay. This unmerited grace: this giving of what we dont deserve, the pardon of our sins, and reconciliation with God, and the gift of salvation unto eternal life (John 3:16), is the central redemptive reality of Christianity; its meaning and its message. It is the integrated message of the entire compilation of books that we call The Holy Bible.

But what about truth?

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6). Are we not then, having received grace through faith in Jesus Christ, to walk in truth? This, indeed, is a major focus of the Apostle Johns third epistle. Writing with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, he says I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth. (v. 4). While this obviously applies to our personal conduct in regard to the 9th commandment, and bearing false witness " does it not go beyond that, with a clear implication that we are to adhere to a standard of reality; the body of real things, events, and facts: actuality in all things? Are there boundaries to the Truth of Jesus Christ? To quote Pauls phrase (Romans 6:2,15, NKJV): Certainly not!

How, then, can we who have accepted the grace of God through our faith in Jesus Christ, as revealed in His inspired Scripture, not accept His truth in regard to earthly things (John 3:12)? And instead, accept theories, and a worldview, that purports billions of years of evolution " theories that are grounded in the idea that God does not exist?

It is vital that believers -- those who have receive(d) the love of the truth (2 Thess. 2:10) " equip themselves with the information they need to counter the prevailing materialist and evolutionist myth. There are many outstanding informational and expository ministries that are easily accessible for that purpose.

Christians are the recipients of the grace and truth of Jesus Christ. In all things, including science, we should strive to be in union with that truth. It is exciting to live during a time when science, operating in its proper subordinate role to Scripture, is pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God (2 Corinthians 4b,5a) " specifically, the long-age Evolutionary myth. It is a matter of great urgency that all believers are acquainted and equipped with information to counter their evolutionist indoctrination. In this age of deceit, when materialist presuppositions have crept into every facet of our culture, from science to education to entertainment, many Christians have never been exposed to the truth concerning accepted theories of the origins of life; its purported development from randomly assembled single cells; the geologic and fossil record; radiometric dating methods; cosmology and astrophysics; genetics. Too many people are unaware that leading research in those fields and others is pointing directly to Gods Biblical truth.

If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. -- John 8:31b,32

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Re: Grace and Truth

Post #2

Post by tariki »

[Replying to post 1 by Volbrigade]

as revealed in His inspired Scripture.............................. Too many people are unaware that leading research in those fields and others is pointing directly to Gods Biblical truth.

Hi Volbrigade,

My own understanding, drawn from my own reading and study, is that virtually all leading research demonstrates that the Bible as text is no more "inspired" than any other claimant to the throne of "truth". Sorry.

Grace I can see as being at the heart of all faiths. In fact I do see such.

All the best

EDIT:- just to add, I would recommend reading something along the lines of Karen Armstrong's book "The Case for God: What religion really means" which demonstrates fairly conclusively by umpteen quotes from the early Church Fathers - among many others - that in fact the "literalist" reading of Scripture is in fact the modernism.

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Re: Grace and Truth

Post #3

Post by Divine Insight »

Volbrigade wrote: Where does the heart of Christianity lie?
The heart of Christianity lies in a belief in the rumors that Jesus was the demigod Son of the God of the Old Testament.
Volbrigade wrote: What is Christianitys central message?
That to refuse to believe the rumors about Jesus will result in your condemnation by an imaginary wrathful God of the Old Testament.

John 3:18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Volbrigade wrote: What does it mean to be a Christian?
It's means that you believe these rumors.
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Re: Grace and Truth

Post #4

Post by connermt »

[Replying to post 1 by Volbrigade]

[quote[Where does the heart of Christianity lie? [/quote] In the minds of believers.
What is Christianitys central message?
It doesn't matter these days. People make it what they want to fit their needs. If there is a central message, it would be 'christianity is malleable to a fault'.
What does it mean to be a Christian?
Many things, but one that sticks out is that christianity affords believers to ability to say/do things and hide behind it, using it as protection, all the while accusing others of derogatory things.

Gotta' love any belief system that holds no facts of the supernatural kind, no? :P

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Re: Grace and Truth

Post #5

Post by no evidence no belief »

Volbrigade wrote: Where does the heart of Christianity lie? What is Christianitys central message? What does it mean to be a Christian?

These questions have sparked a debate that has raged throughout Christendom since the 19th century. It was during that century that the seeds of materialism and humanism, planted during The Enlightenment, bore the fruit of Darwinism and Marxism. Those philosophies, and the atheistic worldview that they are the expression of, have had a profound influence " and not just in the halls of secular academia and the popular culture. They have also exerted their influence on the church, in the form of ideological movements that have become pronounced among liberal theologians, and within the seminaries of many mainline denominations.

There is a marked spirit of compromise that affects large segments of the church today. It can be expressed by an attitude that says where The Bible comes into conflict with accepted ideas of natural and social science, the Bible must give way. This is referred to as conferring to modern science a magisterial (or ruling) role over Scripture; that is, where there is perceived disagreement between the two, science must prevail. When in fact, The Bible " which is the immutable, unchanging, inspired Word of God " is in a magisterial role in regard to science. Science, and the facts it presents, are constantly changing. The accepted science of today are the discredited theories and beliefs of tomorrow. The proper role of science is in a ministerial (subordinate) role to the eternal truth of Scripture.

Too often, however, this is not the view that prevails in local congregations, or is expressed from the pulpit. And well over a hundred years of encroaching compromise and relativism within the mainline churches with regard to the authority of Scripture have taken their toll; as manifested in the weakened influence of Christianity, and its relevance within the culture; its adulterated evangelical mission; and in the undermined faith of countless churchgoers. The result has been dwindling church attendance; the rise of postmodern movements that seek to redefine Christianity (such as The Emergent Church); and the open embrace of anti-Biblical positions (e.g., same-sex marriage).
You are so right!

I hate how we no longer kill gay men (Leviticus 20:13). I hate how we no longer kill children who misbehave (Exodus 21:15). I hate how we no longer own slaves, how we no longer kill people for working on the sabbath and how we no longer kill women who don't scream for help loud enough while being raped! I hate how we allow women to speak in church, I hate how we let them teach and hold positions of authority. I hate how we eat seafood and pork, and how we wear shirts made of two different fabrics.

Don't these "Christians" realize that the Bible is, quote, "the immutable, unchanging, inspired Word of God"? Don't they realize that instead the "accepted ideas of today are the discredited theories of tomorrow"? Sure, today's passing fad might be we that slavery is immoral and that women shouldn't be forced to marry their rapists, but who knows what the fad will be tomorrow. The only unchanging truth is the Bible, and we shouldn't try to dilute it with moral relativism, post modern "christian" movements and basic common sense. Common sense is for Satanists! If the Bible says insects have 4 legs, then insects have 4 legs. Period. Forget about these stupid scientists who think they know how to count to 6. Hell awaits them for daring to contest the immutable truth of the Holy Bible. If we allow today's "accepted science" to be in charge, instead of being subordinate to the eternal truth of scripture, before you know it you'll have scientists claiming that the Bible is wrong in saying the earth is flat and unmovable.

It's disgusting. Why can't people just accept that the Bible is the inerrant word of God? I don't get it. It's so obvious. All you have to do is believe the earth is flat, insects have 4 legs, murdering gay people is ok, murdering misbehaving children is ok, murdering women who are not virgins on their wedding night is ok, working on the Sabbath is not ok, wearing a shirt made of two fabrics is not ok, raping a woman in a field is ok, forcing a woman raped in a field to marry her rapist is ok, killing a woman raped in town who didn't yell for help loud enough is ok, for a woman to speak in church is not ok, for a woman to be a teacher is not ok, for a woman to hold any authority is not ok.

What's the problem? Sure, modern "new-age" morality, and jurisprudence in every civilized country says all this stuff is wrong, but that's just the law of men. Clearly we shouldn't go with that dumb stuff. The Bible is the immutable and inerrant word of God. Duh! Obviously we should follow that.

Please spend as much time as possible letting people know what Christianity is truly all about. Don't worry, I'm not saying this just because I'm an atheist and because obviously I think that nothing turns people off from Christianity then the ravings of a fundamentalist. It's not that at all. It's just that I am moved by your conviction and agree with you that the Bible is inerrant. Please tell everybody you know that they are wrong in being against murdering gay people. Shame on them!

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Post #6

Post by otseng »

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Re: Grace and Truth

Post #7

Post by Volbrigade »

[Replying to no evidence no belief]

I seem to detect a faint whiff of sarcasm in your response, nenb. 8-) Are you sure you're not confusing Levitical Judaism, as codified by the Sinaitic Covenant, with Christianity -- which is the belief that God entered into His creation as a man, in order to pay the debt of sin that the Mosaic Law was established to condemn?

It is a distinction worth investigating, as it speaks to the aforementioned "heart of Christianity".

You might start with Paul's letter to the early Christians in Rome ("Romans"), which is a brilliantly sustained argument expositing how The (Levitical) Law condemns us, but we are free from that condemnation in Jesus Christ.

But what does it mean to be "in Jesus Christ"? It is the acceptance, by grace, through faith, of the gift of salvation from sin -- a gift offered by the only One who could do so -- your Creator, the Lord and creator of Heaven and Earth. That salvation is a three-fold progression: the immediate freedom from the consequences of sin (upon acceptance); the gradual freedom from the practice of sin (sanctification); the ultimate freedom from the presence or sin (glorification).

Tariki opines that "Grace I can see as being at the heart of all faiths." But that simply does not correspond with truth. Only in Christianity does the central figure claim to BE the God of Creation. Not to possess esoteric or mystical insights into Him (or it); but to be the manifestation of the Creator Himself.

But the central distinction between Christianity and every other philosophy or faith -- and all mere religions -- is that it is not merely the embrace of a set of propositions, doctrines, and dogma.

We are not to merely think like Christ, or talk like Christ, or act like Christ.

We are to BE like Christ -- to become as He IS. To have the same nature; the same hyper-dimensionality, the same eternal glory:

"Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is." -- 1 John 3:2

This is the essential Truth of Christianity; which is magisterial over all other beliefs and opinions -- most especially the prevailing materialist scientism of our time.

Any adulteration of it is a compromise and diminishment -- a dilution, if not denial, of the truth.

I offer this reminder: The Laws of the Sinaitic Covenant were exclusive to the signatories thereof; and were (are) unattainable requirements, prescribing the constant sacrificial shedding of blood (of animals) in order to appease its unattainablity. It is a ritual system that is no longer in effect, or practice; not only because there is no Tabernacle of Temple in which to practice it --

But infinitely more importantly, because the sacrifice has been made, once for all, by The Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, at Calvary.

And you cannot get more inclusive than "for all". ;)

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Re: Grace and Truth

Post #8

Post by tariki »

Volbrigade wrote: [Replying to no evidence no belief]

I seem to detect a faint whiff of sarcasm in your response, nenb. 8-) Are you sure you're not confusing Levitical Judaism, as codified by the Sinaitic Covenant, with Christianity -- which is the belief that God entered into His creation as a man, in order to pay the debt of sin that the Mosaic Law was established to condemn?

It is a distinction worth investigating, as it speaks to the aforementioned "heart of Christianity".

You might start with Paul's letter to the early Christians in Rome ("Romans"), which is a brilliantly sustained argument expositing how The (Levitical) Law condemns us, but we are free from that condemnation in Jesus Christ.

But what does it mean to be "in Jesus Christ"? It is the acceptance, by grace, through faith, of the gift of salvation from sin -- a gift offered by the only One who could do so -- your Creator, the Lord and creator of Heaven and Earth. That salvation is a three-fold progression: the immediate freedom from the consequences of sin (upon acceptance); the gradual freedom from the practice of sin (sanctification); the ultimate freedom from the presence or sin (glorification).

Tariki opines that "Grace I can see as being at the heart of all faiths." But that simply does not correspond with truth. Only in Christianity does the central figure claim to BE the God of Creation. Not to possess esoteric or mystical insights into Him (or it); but to be the manifestation of the Creator Himself.

But the central distinction between Christianity and every other philosophy or faith -- and all mere religions -- is that it is not merely the embrace of a set of propositions, doctrines, and dogma.

We are not to merely think like Christ, or talk like Christ, or act like Christ.

We are to BE like Christ -- to become as He IS. To have the same nature; the same hyper-dimensionality, the same eternal glory:

"Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is." -- 1 John 3:2

This is the essential Truth of Christianity; which is magisterial over all other beliefs and opinions -- most especially the prevailing materialist scientism of our time.

Any adulteration of it is a compromise and diminishment -- a dilution, if not denial, of the truth.

I offer this reminder: The Laws of the Sinaitic Covenant were exclusive to the signatories thereof; and were (are) unattainable requirements, prescribing the constant sacrificial shedding of blood (of animals) in order to appease its unattainablity. It is a ritual system that is no longer in effect, or practice; not only because there is no Tabernacle of Temple in which to practice it --

But infinitely more importantly, because the sacrifice has been made, once for all, by The Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, at Calvary.

And you cannot get more inclusive than "for all". ;)
hi volbrigade,

I notice how you shift your stance as you seek to respond to the various answers to your initial post.

Personally, when someone, as you did, seeks to defend a literal take on Genesis and then adds that "leading research in those fields and others is pointing directly to Gods Biblical truth" then I feel I am in the presence of someone who has no respect for truth - whatever its relationship to grace may or may not be.

As I posted...........I would recommend reading something along the lines of Karen Armstrong's book "The Case for God: What religion really means" which demonstrates fairly conclusively by umpteen quotes from the early Church Fathers - among many others - that in fact the "literalist" reading of Scripture is in fact the modernism.

As I posted.........My own understanding, drawn from my own reading and study, is that virtually all leading research demonstrates that the Bible as text is no more "inspired" than any other claimant to the throne of "truth". Sorry.

Grace is at the heart of virtually all faith traditions, and perhaps a look at post 110 on the How were people before Christianity saved? will begin to show just how I would seek to respond to your "Reform" theology.

All the best

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Re: Grace and Truth

Post #9

Post by Divine Insight »

Volbrigade wrote: But infinitely more importantly, because the sacrifice has been made, once for all, by The Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, at Calvary.

And you cannot get more inclusive than "for all".
It's difficult for me to imagine how anyone can believe that because a bunch of irate Jewish Priests demanded the crucifixion of Jesus that this should somehow translate into a "sacrifice" that was made to scapegoat your sins (called "Grace" in Christianity).

To begin with the Biblical God supposedly commanded men "Thou shalt not kill". I realize that this very same God went on then to command men to kill other men for every little petty thing, but let's try to ignore that contradiction just for a moment and ask the following question:

Why would an all-wise God offer humans "Grace" for having killed his only begotten Son? That is utterly absurd IMHO. He supposedly sent Jesus, through a virgin birth as a demigod, to blaspheme against his previous instructions and change all the rules of behavior.

What it God's intent or desire that the Jewish Priest would call for the crucifixion of Jesus? What would that be the case?

If it was the case, shouldn't this God's sanity be called into question? Why would God want for his only begotten son to be brutally crucified by humans? Moreover, if it was his divine plan, then wouldn't the Jewish Priest be doing precisely what God had wanted them to do?

When you stop and think about it, this God did command men to kill heathens and blasphemers, and Jesus was certainly that. Jesus claimed to be one and the same as the Father. That's blaspheme. Jesus claimed that no one comes to the Father but through him. That's blaspheme and violates the Ten Commandments that states that no other Gods shall be placed before the Father God. Jesus as a mere demigod Son of this God is claiming that we must place him before the Father in order to get to the father.

Jesus renounced the judging of others, which was required by the "Word of God" who commanded us to stone sinners and heathens to death which would naturally require that we judge them to be sinners or heathen first.

Jesus also renounced and rejected other teachings of the Old Testament such as replacing "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" with "Turn the other cheek".

So Jesus was clearly preaching blaspheme. Therefore the Jewish Priests were actually obeying God's commandment to kill blasphemers when they called for the crucifixion of Jesus. They would have been saints of the highest order doing precisely as God had commanded them to do.

I don't see how Christianity can ever stand up to sincere inspection.
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Re: Grace and Truth

Post #10

Post by Volbrigade »

[Replying to tariki]

Thank you for the reading recommendation, tariki. I'm quite familiar with views regarding the "development of religion" in prehistoric cultures and ancient societies. As you might be able to garner from my OP, I believe they all share (their minor differences in details notwithstanding) the same error -- essentially, that of looking through the wrong end of the telescope.

"Religion" did not "evolve" -- any more than humans evolved from single-celled organisms. Religions devolved into the dismaying array of barbaric nonsense that we are presented with today. All of them are alike in offering an escape from the destruction and depravity of the human condition (which is itself merely a subset of the natural world) only through the proper knowledge and practice of the religion itself -- that is, if they offer any escape at all.

That, in a technical sense, is not Grace at all. It is works. Works are precisely what can never lead to salvation (Ephesians 2:8,9).

You, no doubt, disagree. It is not for me to persuade you differently. My role is simply to bear witness to the truth, as I perceive it.

Regarding the Genesis account: I am truly sensitive to reaction against the timelines it contains being presented as a straightforward account. I came to faith relatively late in life (20s-30s), and for quite some time was content with long-age compromises involving the allegorization of the Biblical text.

I was nearly as reluctant to accept the Young Earth Creationist (YEC) exegesis and exposition of the text as I was to accept the grace of Christ in the first place. ;)

However, if you're interested in examining the evidence with an open mind -- as well as a Scriptural, instead of a materialist, bias (let's be honest -- you must choose one or the other) -- it becomes clear that in one field of study after another -- e.g., biology (especially the nano- variety); genetics; the geologic and fossil records -- the evidence for the standard evolutionist model(s) is knocked down again and again.

The coup de grace comes in the field of physics and quantum physics. The chief objection to the Genesis account (other than the supernatural element; the acceptance or rejection of which precedes any further considerations) is the time frame involved.

Our understanding of what time actually is -- a physical property affected by velocity, mass, and gravity, among other things -- and the peculiar nature of matter itself, opens the door to radical reinterpretations of how our cosmos came into being.

However, as with all things regarding truth (and, especially, Truth), there is the primary element of choice involved. You alone can choose which set of proposals fits how you see the world, and how you want to live your life. There is no shortage of authoritative information to support your choice (the authorities promoting a Biblical view being in an understandable minority, even among those claiming Christ).

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