Moral objective values...

[whisperit]

[font=Verdana]In one of his papers, Dr. William Lane Craig (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Lane_Craig) argues moral objective values is to say something is right or wrong independently of whether anybody believes it to be so. If God does not exist, what is the foundation for moral objective values?[/font][/url]

[keithprosser3]

Non-human animals that live in groups behave in ways that maintain the group.

Except possibly in some primates (and quite possibly not even there) their behaviour is not the product of conscious choice. A mink or a warthog does not lie awake at night agonising over whether it should have done what it did because it is wasn't what it would like other minks or warthogs to do to it.

Humans are undoubtedly equipped with instincts that we have inherited from our social ancestors, but I suggest that in humans our instincts are very easily over-ridden by conscious thought. We don't have huge brains just to fill our skulls - we have big brains precisely so we can behave more flexibly than blindly following our instincts.

Humans are blessed - or cursed - with the power to make choices. Given a choice of what to do, what basis can one use to decide? The Golden rule is a guideline one can use for making decisions - if you follow the golden rule you are likely to do what is 'morally right'. There is nothing more (or less) to the golden rule than that.

Being able - and therefore being forced - to make moral decisions is a circumstances that is unique to our species. If it applies at all to other species it applies very weakly so other species are of limited use any sort of guide.

[Artie]

But you have not explained anything. You just asserted that there is a golden rule. I reject this and I have given you a base and evidence.
People in arctic are in a different environment that people in mid Africa; they even look different! Yet I can get examples where some of these people in either environment have deviated form this rule.

Of course. Prisons are full of people from every kinds of environments who have behaved in a manner deviating from the rules including the Golden One. That is why we put them in prison. Your reasoning is so flawed that I give up trying to explain.

[JohnA]

Yet previously you claimed that we try to "fix" these human based on your golden rule.
This kind of circular reasoning, jumping between positions, is not doing your assertion any good. Besides asserting that evolution is based on strategies of survival (which is basically what this golden rule is) is false.
You have presented no evidence, no base, nothing to suggest that this golden rule exists, other than pure wishful thinking.
I have given you a base and evidence why it can not exist.
I even went further and tell you where this golden rule probably came from: baby Jesus demigod.

You have presented no argument (only an empty claim), and I am not even convinced you understand evolution either (referring to your strategies claim)

My response was based on FACT, unlike yours.

I leave you with a quote from Socrates — 'When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.'
Let's not go there, please.

[Artie]

Thank you. And I agree with your post. There is no purpose, no strategies for survival. You make your own purpose. And this is another reason why this golden rule is rubbish; pure wishful thinking based on a demigod.

The Golden Rule was formulated long before this demigod appeared. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule

[Artie]

I even went further and tell you where this golden rule probably came from: baby Jesus demigod.

You tell us that this golden rule probably came from the baby Jesus demigod when we know it was formulated long before he arrived? Just read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule and stop shooting yourself in the foot.

[JohnA]

Thank you. And I agree with your post. There is no purpose, no strategies for survival. You make your own purpose. And this is another reason why this golden rule is rubbish; pure wishful thinking based on a demigod.

The Golden Rule was formulated long before this demigod appeared. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule

formulate: create or prepare methodically

Are you now admitting that this rule was created by humans?

The claim is that the demigod has always existed. (Trinity Dogma and Pre-Existence Dogma)

I said before: I try not to read rubbish that has not been peer reviewed and accepted by science.

[Artie]

Are you now admitting that this rule was created by humans?

No, they simply described with words behavior that evolved and was selected for because it was advantageous for survival when living in communities.

[JohnA]

Are you now admitting that this rule was created by humans?

No, they simply described with words behavior that evolved and was selected for because it was advantageous for survival when living in communities.

How is it advantageous?
Can you reference any peer reviewed scientific journals that has been accepted by the scientific community to support your claim?

[Artie]

How is it advantageous?
Can you reference any peer reviewed scientific journals that has been accepted by the scientific community to support your claim?

You need some peer reviewed articles in scientific journals to understand that if you go around beating up people and because nobody wants to be beaten up the consequences will be to your disadvantage? You need some peer reviewed articles in scientific journals to understand that since nobody wants to be killed so if you go around murdering people the consequences for you are likely to be disadvantageous to you?

[NoisForm]

How is it advantageous?
Can you reference any peer reviewed scientific journals that has been accepted by the scientific community to support your claim?

You need some peer reviewed articles in scientific journals to understand that if you go around beating up people and because nobody wants to be beaten up the consequences will be to your disadvantage? You need some peer reviewed articles in scientific journals to understand that since nobody wants to be killed so if you go around murdering people the consequences for you are likely to be disadvantageous to you?

Agreed - an odd request indeed. But, allow me to assist. Here's just a few JohnA. How many do you require(?), as there appears to be no shortage from my short search...


From the peer reviewed Journal of Evolution and Technology;

"The Social Contract
Teamwork helps individuals succeed at survival and reproduction, and this has created evolutionary pressure for teamwork in humans and other animals. Thus we have social abilities such as language, and social values such as liking, anger, gratitude, sympathy, guilt and shame, that enable us to work in teams."

"Social values and the special processes dedicated to the logic of social obligation, which evolved in human brains because cooperation benefits individuals, are at the roots of ethics."



From the peer reviewed Public Library of Science;

"Cooperation has been reported at practically every level of biological organization and, in fact, it has been argued to play a key role in the major steps of evolution."

"...reciprocity is one of the most important forms of human cooperation, probably since almost two million years ago, as reciprocity appears to be an unavoidable consequence of small group size, given the cognitive abilities of humans"



From the peer reviewed Evolutionary Psychology Journal (PDF);

"Hamilton’s (1964) theory of kin selection or inclusive fitness predicts that altruistic actions... (help to) ...increase the proportion of shared genes in the population"

"altruistic behavior between non-kin can be favored by natural selection"

"human altruism can be driven by individuals selectively cooperating with
members of their (symbolically marked) ingroup"