Let's cut to the chase. Do you have any evidence?

[no evidence no belief]

I feel like we've been beating around the bush for... 6000 years!

Can you please either provide some evidence for your supernatural beliefs, or admit that you have no evidence?

If you believe there once was a talking donkey (Numbers 22) could you please provide evidence?

If you believe there once was a zombie invasion in Jerusalem (Mat 27) could you please provide evidence?

If you believe in the flying horse (Islam) could you please provide evidence?

Walking on water, virgin births, radioactive spiders who give you superpowers, turning water into wine, turning iron into gold, demons, goblins, ghosts, hobbits, elves, angels, unicorns and Santa.

Can you PLEASE provide evidence?

[Star]

Yes, to some people, that's what the talking donkey is. I get it. To some others it's a LITERALLY ACTUAL TALKING DONKEY WHO EXISTED IN REALITY, AND THAT IF THERE HAD BEEN VIDEOCAMERAS AT THE TIME, IT COULD HAVE BEEN RECORDED!

I agree. I'm of the firm belief that most, if not all, of the Bible was intended by the writers and the original followers to be taken literally. It's probably the only thing I agree with Kent Hovind and other infamous young-Earth apologists on.

I think people who claim metaphor once science discredits it are Captain Hindsights.

"We knew all along that two of every species couldn't fit in the Ark."

Or...

"We knew all along that donkeys don't talk."

Or...

"We knew all along that the Earth was old."

No, actually, I don't think you did. We can't say for sure what the authors intended, but we know for a fact that throughout history, Christians have taken the Bible literally. This metaphor excuse is relatively recent.

It's sad to see our fellow non-believers accommodating such nonsense. I think, because your thread is so long now, and it's been so visible, that it's attracting a higher level of scrutiny. I posted a thread similar to this before you did and I didn't get the same flack.

[no evidence no belief]

Yes, to some people, that's what the talking donkey is. I get it. To some others it's a LITERALLY ACTUAL TALKING DONKEY WHO EXISTED IN REALITY, AND THAT IF THERE HAD BEEN VIDEOCAMERAS AT THE TIME, IT COULD HAVE BEEN RECORDED!

I agree. I'm of the firm belief that most, if not all, of the Bible was intended by the writers and the original followers to be taken literally. It's probably the only thing I agree with Kent Hovind and other infamous young-Earth apologists on.

I think people who claim metaphor once science discredits it are Captain Hindsights.

"We knew all along that two of every species couldn't fit in the Ark."

Or...

"We knew all along that donkeys don't talk."

Or...

"We knew all along that the Earth was old."

No, actually, I don't think you did. We can't say for sure what the authors intended, but we know for a fact that throughout history, Christians have taken the Bible literally. This metaphor excuse is relatively recent.

It's sad to see our fellow non-believers accommodating such nonsense. I think, because your thread is so long now, and it's been so visible, that it's attracting a higher level of scrutiny. I posted a thread similar to this before you did and I didn't get the same flack.

I'm actually ok with people claiming "metaphor". It's one of the necessary steps towards rationality.

First you think it's the literal truth, then you think it's the literal truth but needs some interpretation, then you think that some of it is literal truth and some of it is metaphor, then you admit it's mostly metaphor, then you realize the method you use do distinguish between the metaphors and the few remaining literal truths is totally arbitrary, then you realize it's all metaphor, then you realize its metaphors for some pretty stupid concepts, then you realize "metaphor" is actually an euphemism for insanely dumb fairy tales, then you notice all the violent and horrible parts, then you realize it's a collection of absurd nonsensical perversely violent and ignorant nonsense coupled with fairy tales an 8 year old would laugh at, and then you're an atheist.

I say let them enjoy the "metaphor" phase of their short-lived belief in fairy tales.

[scourge99]

So the gospel writers, paul and historians like Josephus, all colluded together in a massive conspiracy theory to promote Christianity? That's not extraordinary??

Please give me that exact quote from Josephus which mentions the supernatural and I'll immediately wire $10,000 to you.

Book 18, Chapter 3, section 3, Josephus mentions that Jesus was crucified and then returns from death on the third day.
http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/ant-18.htm

3. Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, (9) those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; (10) as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

Nope. Josephus writes that the followers CLAIMED that Jesus came back. That's like CNN reporting that Charlie Sheen claims to be an extraterrestrial.

Not that i was actually expecting $10,000; its mere rhetoric. But I fulfilled his request that i give him an "exact quote from Josephus which mentions the supernatural". Rather than admit he was mistaken or wrong about Josephus, he moves the goalposts and pretends he was asking something else.

[keithprosser3]

I've studied the passage and its context carefully and it does not support the idea that Josephus is reporting only what the Christians believed rather than being what he (Josephus) himself took to be the truth.

We're I holding the $10,000 in escrow, I'd give it to S99 because NENB's defence doesn't hold up to scrutiny. But NENB does have another escape clause in that the passage is hotly disputed, with many scholars saying it was inserted into the text by over-zealous Christians centuries after Josphus was dead, so he might like to consider that instead.

[no evidence no belief]

So the gospel writers, paul and historians like Josephus, all colluded together in a massive conspiracy theory to promote Christianity? That's not extraordinary??

Please give me that exact quote from Josephus which mentions the supernatural and I'll immediately wire $10,000 to you.

Book 18, Chapter 3, section 3, Josephus mentions that Jesus was crucified and then returns from death on the third day.
http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/ant-18.htm

3. Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, (9) those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; (10) as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

Nope. Josephus writes that the followers CLAIMED that Jesus came back. That's like CNN reporting that Charlie Sheen claims to be an extraterrestrial.

Not that i was actually expecting $10,000; its mere rhetoric. But I fulfilled his request that i give him an "exact quote from Josephus which mentions the supernatural". Rather than admit he was mistaken or wrong about Josephus, he moves the goalposts and pretends he was asking something else.

You know, you're right.

I must admit I knew about Josephus as a historian related to Christianity but didn't know much about him other than that.

Your statements and those by Keithprosser3 have caused me to do more research and I would like to amend my response to your statement about Josephus. Here goes:

It's a forgery!

There is broad consensus among historians that the portions of the Testimonium Flavianum which reference the resurrection are interpolations by later Christian forgers.

James Dun, a leading new testament historian (and a devout Christian) claims that prior to the Christian forgeries, Jesephus passage would have looked like this:

"Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man. For he was a doer of startling deeds, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. And he gained a following both among many Jews and many of Greek origin. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day."


So let's review the evidence for the resurrection which you claim is sufficient to counter the overwhelming medical, biological, chemical and physical evidence against the resurrection.

1) A half dozen people claimed to have seen a flying corpse
2) A bunch of simpletons believed them
3) Some historians reported that a bunch of simpletons believed them

The notion that external historians reported on the supernatural is unsubstantiated. The notion that his closest followers were willing to die for their belief in Christ is demonstrably the exact opposite of the truth. The notion that subsequent followers were willing to die for their beliefs makes them just about as devoted as any Nazi solider or suicide bomber that ever lived. The notion that Christianity grew quickly makes it no more extraordinary than any one of dozens of quick-growing religions.

The theory that a half dozen people made up the story of the resurrection isn't only consistent with the overwhelming scientific evidences that corpses can't fly. It's also internally consistent with the subsequent "evidence" for the resurrection which you present. It's possible for non witnesses to believe the fictitious tale of those who said they saw Jesus's cadaver fly into the sky. It's possible for them to become so devoted to this fictitious belief as to be willing to die for it (heck, it works for muslims). It's possible for historians to report on the people's devotion to this fictitious belief. It's possible for Christianity to grow rapidly even though at its foundation it has a fictitious belief.

If we assume that a half dozen guys made up some stories about Jesus, the additional "evidence" you've provided fits in nicely with the assumption, without generating problems of contradictions.

The historians' reports on Christianity, the early christians' willingness to die for their beliefs, the rapid growth of Christianity, don't count as evidence in support of the "resurrection hypothesis", because they are equally compatible with the "half dozen guys making stuff up hypothesis".

The only two pieces of evidence that are at odds with each other are these:

On the "resurrection hypothesis" side: The testimony of a half dozen folks

On the "a half dozen folks made made up some stuff hypothesis" side: everything we know about science. An overwhelming body of empirical evidence about medicine, biology, chemistry, physics. Millions upon millions of scientific experiments carried out by millions upon millions of scientists of all sorts of beliefs and religions all around the world, throughout the millenia. Detailed studies on gravity, on how the brain works, on how the heart works, on the mechanics of death, on the first law of thermodynamics, on the second law of thermodynamics, on entropy, on gravity. If corpses can fly, then every single one of these empirical experiments - which somehow resulted in our ability to perform heart transplants, build planes and iphones, and land unmanned vehicles on Mars - are fundamentally flawed.


So..... yeah. A half dozen guys made up some stories, yeah?

[Danmark]

So the gospel writers, paul and historians like Josephus, all colluded together in a massive conspiracy theory to promote Christianity? That's not extraordinary??

Please give me that exact quote from Josephus which mentions the supernatural and I'll immediately wire $10,000 to you.

Book 18, Chapter 3, section 3, Josephus mentions that Jesus was crucified and then returns from death on the third day.
http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/ant-18.htm

3. Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, (9) those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; (10) as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

Nope. Josephus writes that the followers CLAIMED that Jesus came back. That's like CNN reporting that Charlie Sheen claims to be an extraterrestrial.

Not that i was actually expecting $10,000; its mere rhetoric. But I fulfilled his request that i give him an "exact quote from Josephus which mentions the supernatural". Rather than admit he was mistaken or wrong about Josephus, he moves the goalposts and pretends he was asking something else.

You know, you're right.

I must admit I knew about Josephus as a historian related to Christianity but didn't know much about him other than that.

Your statements and those by Keithprosser3 have caused me to do more research and I would like to amend my response to your statement about Josephus. Here goes:

It's a forgery!

There is broad consensus among historians that the portions of the Testimonium Flavianum which reference the resurrection are interpolations by later Christian forgers.

James Dun, a leading new testament historian (and a devout Christian) claims that prior to the Christian forgeries, Jesephus passage would have looked like this:

"Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man. For he was a doer of startling deeds, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. And he gained a following both among many Jews and many of Greek origin. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day."


So let's review the evidence for the resurrection which you claim is sufficient to counter the overwhelming medical, biological, chemical and physical evidence against the resurrection.

1) A half dozen people claimed to have seen a flying corpse
2) A bunch of simpletons believed them
3) Some historians reported that a bunch of simpletons believed them.
....
So..... yeah. A half dozen guys made up some stories, yeah?

Actually, it's even less reliable than that, isn't it?
The 'half dozen people' don't mention the 'flying corpse.' No one who even claims to be a witness writes anything about the resurrection or ascension. We have anonymous authors who report that OTHER people made these claims to have actually seen something. And NONE of it starts until a guy who admits he changed his name came along and admits that he too, never saw Jesus in the flesh. But after a bout with illness that brought him near death, he claims to have seen Jesus in a vision. Then at least ten years later, we have the anonymous reports begin.

[no evidence no belief]

So the gospel writers, paul and historians like Josephus, all colluded together in a massive conspiracy theory to promote Christianity? That's not extraordinary??

Please give me that exact quote from Josephus which mentions the supernatural and I'll immediately wire $10,000 to you.

Book 18, Chapter 3, section 3, Josephus mentions that Jesus was crucified and then returns from death on the third day.
http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/ant-18.htm

3. Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, (9) those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; (10) as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

Nope. Josephus writes that the followers CLAIMED that Jesus came back. That's like CNN reporting that Charlie Sheen claims to be an extraterrestrial.

Not that i was actually expecting $10,000; its mere rhetoric. But I fulfilled his request that i give him an "exact quote from Josephus which mentions the supernatural". Rather than admit he was mistaken or wrong about Josephus, he moves the goalposts and pretends he was asking something else.

You know, you're right.

I must admit I knew about Josephus as a historian related to Christianity but didn't know much about him other than that.

Your statements and those by Keithprosser3 have caused me to do more research and I would like to amend my response to your statement about Josephus. Here goes:

It's a forgery!

There is broad consensus among historians that the portions of the Testimonium Flavianum which reference the resurrection are interpolations by later Christian forgers.

James Dun, a leading new testament historian (and a devout Christian) claims that prior to the Christian forgeries, Jesephus passage would have looked like this:

"Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man. For he was a doer of startling deeds, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. And he gained a following both among many Jews and many of Greek origin. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day."


So let's review the evidence for the resurrection which you claim is sufficient to counter the overwhelming medical, biological, chemical and physical evidence against the resurrection.

1) A half dozen people claimed to have seen a flying corpse
2) A bunch of simpletons believed them
3) Some historians reported that a bunch of simpletons believed them.
....
So..... yeah. A half dozen guys made up some stories, yeah?

Actually, it's even less reliable than that, isn't it?
The 'half dozen people' don't mention the 'flying corpse.' No one who even claims to be a witness writes anything about the resurrection or ascension. We have anonymous authors who report that OTHER people made these claims to have actually seen something. And NONE of it starts until a guy who admits he changed his name came along and admits that he too, never saw Jesus in the flesh. But after a bout with illness that brought him near death, he claims to have seen Jesus in a vision. Then at least ten years later, we have the anonymous reports begin.

And all the parchments containing these anonymous reports from decades later are all long gone. All we have are copies of copies of copies of copies written by anonymous authors who copied and edited the works of anonymous authors who copied and edited the works of anonymous authors who copied and edited the works of anonymous authors who copied and edited the works of anonymous authors.

The absolute earliest we have is Papyrus 52 which only has a couple of lines from John 18 in it, with no reference to the supernatural.

It's not until about 325 AD that we get a complete copy of the NT. 300 years after Jesus had died. This means that the anonymous person writing this "eyewitness testimony of Jesus's resurrection" would have been the
great
great
great
great
great
great
great
great
great
great
great
great
great
great
great
great
great
grandson of somebody alive at the same time as Jesus.

Some anonymous guy wrote 330 years after the event that somebody told somebody who told somebody who told somebody who told somebody.... [times about 50]... who wrote down something which was copied (with possible edits) by somebody which was copied (with possible edits) by somebody ...[about 20 times].... which was copied (with possible edits) by him.

Is there anybody here who claims that we should believe that everything we know about medicine, biology, chemistry, physics should be scrapped on the basis of this enormous game of telephone played by iron age folks with a socio-political axe to grind?

[no evidence no belief]

Ok, quick recap of where we all stand:

Assisigirl has admitted that her belief in the talking donkey of the Bible is just about as reasonable as her nephew's belief in the talking donkey of Shrek

Goose fought tooth and nail to persuade us that a half dozen people did indeed claim to see a flying maggot-infested cadaver, but he mysteriously vanished when asked the question "Ok, assume that half a dozen people did claim to see a flying corpse. Is that reason enough to belief an actual flying corpse existed?"

Scourge99 has kinda vanished.

Keithprosser was playing devil's advocate and seems to understand that belief in X based on an unjustified belief in Y basically amounts to unjustified belief in X.


So, is there anybody else out there who claims to have evidentiary justification for belief in any supernatural claim?

[no evidence no belief]

Ok, quick recap of where we all stand:

Assisigirl has admitted that her belief in the talking donkey of the Bible is just about as reasonable as her nephew's belief in the talking donkey of Shrek

Goose fought tooth and nail to persuade us that a half dozen people did indeed claim to see a flying maggot-infested cadaver, but he mysteriously vanished when asked the question "Ok, assume that half a dozen people did claim to see a flying corpse. Is that reason enough to belief an actual flying corpse existed?"

Scourge99 has kinda vanished.

Keithprosser was playing devil's advocate and seems to understand that belief in X based on an unjustified belief in Y basically amounts to unjustified belief in X.


So, is there anybody else out there who claims to have evidentiary justification for belief in any supernatural claim?

Nothing?

Are we collectively agreeing that there isn't sufficient evidence to justify belief in any supernatural claim?

[alive]

Ok, quick recap of where we all stand:

Assisigirl has admitted that her belief in the talking donkey of the Bible is just about as reasonable as her nephew's belief in the talking donkey of Shrek

Goose fought tooth and nail to persuade us that a half dozen people did indeed claim to see a flying maggot-infested cadaver, but he mysteriously vanished when asked the question "Ok, assume that half a dozen people did claim to see a flying corpse. Is that reason enough to belief an actual flying corpse existed?"

Scourge99 has kinda vanished.

Keithprosser was playing devil's advocate and seems to understand that belief in X based on an unjustified belief in Y basically amounts to unjustified belief in X.


So, is there anybody else out there who claims to have evidentiary justification for belief in any supernatural claim?

Nothing?

Are we collectively agreeing that there isn't sufficient evidence to justify belief in any supernatural claim?

I will second the motion...ALL in favor!?