IS WITCHCRAFT GOOD OR EVIL?

[acehighinfinity]

[Replying to post 106 by Divine Insight]
DIVINE INSIGHT:

Moreover, I find the verse that you have posted to be quite interesting and I use it frequently to defend my witchcraft against Christian criticism. The Christians often claim that witches get their power from Satan (just as Jesus had been accused of in the verse you've quoted).

However, like Jesus I use my powers for good works. Therefore, for the very same reasons that Jesus gave my powers cannot come from Beelzebub (or Satan) because a house divided against itself cannot stand.

Therefore my powers necessarily must come from God, for precisely the same reasons that Jesus gave.

If what Jesus spoke is truth, then clearly it must also apply to me. I cannot do good works in the name of Beelzebub, demons, or Satan because that would be a house divided against itself.

So I find it rather humorous that Jesus himself has totally vindicated all witches who do good works. Because their power (according to Jesus) can only come from God. Only God's power can be used for good works.

I would like to invite you here DIVINE INSIGHT
The above post caught my attention and I would like to bring this to the light. Now in another thread I am under the impression you study Buddhism but claim not to be a Buddhist, correct?

I am totally against WitchCraft according to the Holy Bible:
Deuteronomy 18:14 "The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the Lord your God has not permitted you to do so."
Revelation 22:15 "Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood."
Leviticus 19:26 "Do not practice divination or seek omens"
...the list goes on.

Questions:
If Divine Insight claim to use WitchCraft for good, then could you or anyone else list those examples please?
Does one see WitchCraft as Good? or
Does one see WitchCraft as Evil?

Feel free to add on.

Thanks in advance,
Ace

[acehighinfinity]

[Replying to post 4 by Divine Insight]
Thanks for your reponse DI.

Just because Wiccan Rede has a certain way that doesn't mean All Witchcraft are purely good? If there is Witchcraft that uses it for good(Wiccan Rede) then I need to see a list of examples of what they use it for which you still haven't provided?

Since Wiccans can only do good words (because of their foundational Rede) then their power cannot come from Satan for the very same reason that Jesus proclaimed that his powers cannot come from Satan. They can only come from God.

This was Jesus' own excuse. If it holds true for him, then it must hold true for everyone.

So Jesus has vindicated the Wiccans as obviously being empowered by God. That is the only source from which their good works can emanate according to Jesus.

You don't know this to be true..you're only speculating based on the scripture that I mentioned to you on another thread: Matthew 12:22-37??
[Replying to post 106 by Divine Insight]

First, please provide those examples?

PS. So what do you call yourself? Are you a Wiccan Rede?

Thanks

[YahDough]

Witchcraft must be evil relative to good or else the practice of it it would not exclude a person from inheriting the kingdom of God. It seems even good witches don't go to heaven. Witchcraft is cited as a work of the flesh which is in opposition to the Spirit of God.

If you presume that the Christian religion is true, then of course, other spiritualities including witchcraft are evil. But I don't think that debating the merits witchcraft is possible while presuming that it is both false and evil from the get go.

The "merits" of any activity can be summed up by just knowing where (or where not) the results of practicing that activity will ultimately take a person. And we are talking about witchcraft here.

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

But you're not talking about witchcraft.

I'm not? Gee, thanks for your inept observation.

You're talking about what the Christian dogma claims about witchcraft.

You call it "dogma". But it is really sound doctrine. What is better than the truth?

The whole point of this thread is the fact that Jesus himself was accused of performing his witchcraft in the name of Beezelbub (or Satan). Jesus' defense was to claim that good works cannot be done by the power of Satan for if they were then Satan's house would be divided against itself.

I went with the OP. "IS WITCHCRAFT GOOD OR EVIL?". But Jesus gave a great teaching about "a house divided".

Therefore anyone who does good works through sorcery or witchcraft can use the very same excuse that Jesus gave to defend the source of their magic.

I'm not arguing the "source" of witchcraft. I'm arguing the long term "merits" of it and whether witchcraft is (more) GOOD or (more) EVIL. It is obviously (more) evil since it exempts those who practice it from the kingdom of God.

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to post 4 by Divine Insight]
Thanks for your reponse DI.

Just because Wiccan Rede has a certain way that doesn't mean All Witchcraft are purely good?

That's irrelevant. To ask whether witchcraft is good or evil is a bogus question to begin with. This would be like asking if a knife is good or evil. A knife can be used for either. In the hands of a criminal it can be used to commit murder, in the hands of a doctor it can be used to save a life through surgery.

The same is true of witchcraft. However, the Wiccan Rede means that Wiccans cannot perform witchcraft that causes harm. Therefore their witchcraft is necessarily good.

If there is Witchcraft that uses it for good(Wiccan Rede) then I need to see a list of examples of what they use it for which you still haven't provided?

I don't need to provide any specific examples. There is no need for that. That would only distract into arguments over the morality of those specific examples which is absurd.

Since Wiccans can only do good words (because of their foundational Rede) then their power cannot come from Satan for the very same reason that Jesus proclaimed that his powers cannot come from Satan. They can only come from God.

This was Jesus' own excuse. If it holds true for him, then it must hold true for everyone.

So Jesus has vindicated the Wiccans as obviously being empowered by God. That is the only source from which their good works can emanate according to Jesus.

You don't know this to be true..you're only speculating based on the scripture that I mentioned to you on another thread: Matthew 12:22-37??
[Replying to post 106 by Divine Insight]

First, please provide those examples?

What examples? Jesus was being accused of performing his miracles (his sorcery and witchcraft) in the name of Beezelbub or Satan. Jesus excuse was that he was going good works and therefore his power cannot of come from and evil source since that evil source would then be divided against itself.

I'm not even saying that this is a valid excuse. However it was the defense that Jesus used in an effort to exonerate himself from these charges. Therefore if any credence is give to these words of Jesus, then they must apply to everyone, not just to Jesus.

In other words, if a Wiccan witch uses this same defensive argument (and it was considered a valid argument for Jesus) then it must also be recognized to be a valid argument for the Wiccan witch.

PS. So what do you call yourself? Are you a Wiccan Rede?

Thanks

I don't label myself. I am that I am. Period.

In terms of philosophy I embrace the philosophy of Taoism. In terms of morality and psychic health I embrace many of the teachings of "Buddhism", but I must be quick to add here that I do not embrace every teaching of Buddhism in every sect of Buddhism.

In terms of psychic paradigms and rituals I embrace various forms of Shamanism and my own version of "Solitary Eclectic Wicca" which in today's modern age is recognized as being a valid religion (although in truth I couldn't care less about that).

Part of this Wicca paradigm is indeed to orchestrate spiritual energies to obtain desired results. This is commonly referred to as "magick" or "Witchcraft". I might also add that Witchcraft in Wicca means something totally different from what it meant to the ancient Hebrews.

Many Christians even hold out that a "Witch" in the Bible was seen as a poisoner. It was just a bad translation of a term to begin with.

In European arena the term "Witch" was derived from the term "Wicce" which actually means "Wise One". Witchcraft is the craft of the wise. In fact, in European history witches were seen as doctors, not unlike the shamans. In fact, in many parts of the world witches are actually called "Witch Doctors". And they were called upon to heal the sick.

It was the Christian culture that perverted the concept of the Witch just as they attempt to pervert everything that doesn't support their dogma.

But in answer to your question, I don't "label" myself to be a Wiccan Witch (except maybe in my signature graphics just for artistic fun on this particular forum). But I would indeed qualify as being eligible for that label should I choose to wear it. I totally embrace the Wiccan Rede of harming none. So if you would like to label me as a witch, that's perfectly fine with me just be sure to call me a "Good Witch" because, as I say, I embrace the Wiccan Rede of harming none.

Even when Wiccans ask me if I am a Wiccan, I simply reply that I have adopted the foundational framework of the Wiccan Paradigm and I embrace and practice many of the spiritual and magical rituals that are commonly associated with Wicca.

Does this make me a "Wiccan"? That's even a hot issue in Wiccan circles.

Wiccans (having created an "officially recognized religion") have unfortunately also fallen into various groups that do not even recognize each others practices as necessarily being a valid expression of "Wicca". This is what happens when spirituality is made into "religion".

This is why I prefer to remain a "Solitary Witch" in practice. But I like using the term "Wiccan" when communicating this to others because I want to be sure that they understand that I embrace the Wiccan Rede of harming none.

[YahDough]

[Replying to post 16 by YahDough]

YahDough, you have provided evidence that the Christian apostle Paul believed that those who practice witchcraft shall not inherit the kingdom of God. What you have not done is to show that Paul's view on witchcraft is accurate.

Pauls view came from the heart of God. What I have not done is to show "you" that "Paul's view on witchcraft is accurate."

The question here is not whether witchcraft is approved or disapproved by the Christian religion but whether it is good or evil.

It should be clear witchcraft is more evil than good. Do I need to repeat why?

[Divine Insight]

You're talking about what the Christian dogma claims about witchcraft.

You call it "dogma". But it is really sound doctrine. What is better than the truth?

But that's clearly not true. There is nothing sound about it. It has clearly fallen into three majorly opposing sects: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

All of these broken religions have then fractured again within their own sects. Christianity has broken into two major opposing sects itself: Catholicism and Protestantism.

The Protestants then continued to protest against each other forming thousands of disagreeing broken religions.

So there is nothing sound about this doctrine at all. Not a thing.

The claim that it is a sound doctrine is totally unsupportable.

The whole point of this thread is the fact that Jesus himself was accused of performing his witchcraft in the name of Beezelbub (or Satan). Jesus' defense was to claim that good works cannot be done by the power of Satan for if they were then Satan's house would be divided against itself.

I went with the OP. "IS WITCHCRAFT GOOD OR EVIL?". But Jesus gave a great teaching about "a house divided".

Exactly. This proving that, according to Jesus, any witchcraft that is used to do good works can only have come from God, because it cannot have come from an evil source or it would be a "house divided against itself'.

What part of Jesus' defense are you not understanding? :-K

This was Jesus' defense when he was being accused of conducting magic, sorcerer, or witchcraft in the name of Beezelbub, or Satan.

Therefore anyone who does good works through sorcery or witchcraft can use the very same excuse that Jesus gave to defend the source of their magic.

I'm not arguing the "source" of witchcraft. I'm arguing the long term "merits" of it and whether witchcraft is (more) GOOD or (more) EVIL. It is obviously (more) evil since it exempts those who practice it from the kingdom of God.

This thread isn't about other claims within the dogma that supposedly claim that those who practice witchcraft are supposedly exempt from heaven. That's just hateful dogma that has nothing at all to do with the issue at hand.

We're talking about the EXCUSE that Jesus used in his own defense.

All I'm saying is that if this excuse is valid for Jesus, then it necessarily has to be valid for everyone.

No one is talking about any other dogma that claims that witchcraft is evil. That would actually violate Jesus' own defense.

If that were TRUTH, then Jesus would have been wrong by giving the defensive argument that he gave.

Jesus claimed that an evil source cannot be behind good works because that would then be a house divided against itself.

And THAT is the issue of discussion here. You are desperately trying to evade the real issue and sweep it under the carpet by appealing to other places in the dogma where witchcraft is supposedly condemned no matter what. But that totally misses the point of Jesus' own defensive argument.

If Jesus' argument is TRUE, then it must apply to everyone who does good works. They can only be obtaining their power from God, therefore God himself would be behind any GOOD witchcraft.

In fact, if you are so hung up on that label. Consider the following.

Modern day "witches" who perform "witchcraft" are just using that term. It's just a word. Moreover, they are using the term from a European background where the term actually means "Craft of the Wise". It doesn't have any negative connotations that the ancient Hebrews gave to it. So it's not even the same "witchcraft" that the Bible was supposedly condemning.

Christianity has a really nasty habit of trying to condemn everything and anything that even remotely appears to threaten their religion. It's an extremely arrogant and offensive religion. It's no wonder that it has become the focal point of much heated and adversarial debates anymore.

But no, there is nothing sound about the Christian dogma. And Christianity itself is the living proof of this.

[YahDough]

[Replying to post 25 by Divine Insight]

I'm not sure if I'm sorry or not that I appear to be disturbing your house of cards.

But to deny the truth in order to justify oneself is not right.

We can all think and even believe what we want about witchcraft. I am going with the truth about it, as the LORD has taught me by His Holy Spirit.

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to post 25 by Divine Insight]

I'm not sure if I'm sorry or not that I appear to be disturbing your house of cards.

But to deny the truth in order to justify oneself is not right.

We can all think and even believe what we want about witchcraft. I am going with the truth about it, as the LORD has taught me by His Holy Spirit.

"Witchcraft" is just a word, used to mean different things by different people.

All you are doing here is demanding that a specific word (a translated word none the less) must apply to every case where it might be used in the modern world today.

That very notion there is already unwarranted.

The fact that modern day Wiccans use the term "Witchcraft" which to them means "Craft of the Wise", really has nothing at all to do with how it may have been used by scriptural translators.

So forgetting about this word (which wasn't even used by Jesus in his defensive argument), and just focusing on directing spiritual power, we can see that any spiritual power that has been directed for the purpose of doing good works can only have come from the divine (if we accept that Jesus spoke the TRUTH).

Therefore modern day Wiccans who use spiritual powers to do good works, are necessarily obtaining their power from God, and not from some evil source.

It really doesn't matter what label you give it. Calling it "Witchcraft" is just assigning a label to it. If the Biblical meaning of "witchcraft" refers to only evil acts, then clearly that term does not apply to the modern use of the word as it applies to Wicca.

In other words, your argument is one based entirely on semantics and labels and misses the spirit of the concept entirely.

In fact, Jesus said that we would perform greater works than he. Wiccans are actually doing as Jesus suggested. They are doing the great works of God.

Whereas the Christians just sit around whining that they need prayer requests because their prayers aren't working.

Unlike the Christians, the Wiccans are actually doing what Jesus taught. They are out there being vessels through which the spirit of God can flow.

The Wiccans are more "Christlike" than the Christians. All the Christians do is complain that life sucks and they can't wait to go to heaven. The Wiccans are actually taking part in improving the quality of life.

I agree with Mahatma Gandhi, "Your Christians are so unlike your Christ".

[Goat]

[Replying to post 2 by Goat]

"Witchcraft" is neither good nor evil, it just is.

Do you have any experience with Witchcraft or this just own definition?

Now, the passages you gave in the bible are pretty badly translated.

Galatians 5:20 "..idolatry and witchcraft.."
Deuteronomy 18:14 "The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the Lord your God has not permitted you to do so."

It wouldn't matter if I gave you a hundred scriptures listing Witchcraft/Sorcery. There is no mistake in the translation it is referring to 'Practicing Sorcery/Witchcraft'.

So, no, witchcraft, as a rule, is not evil.

Gees...how confident are you? I'm not interested in any assumptions. Either you have some experience or not??

Dictionary Witchcraft
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/witchcraft?s=t

Make no mistake, Witchcraft also uses craftiness too?

So, you answer my point that the term' witchcraft' is a repetition of the term?? What?? No analyzing the Greek or Hebrew??

And, your dictionary term means nothing, when ti comes to the original language. Nor, does it back up your claim without some assumptions too.

[otseng]

All the Christians do is complain that life sucks and they can't wait to go to heaven.

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[acehighinfinity]

[Replying to post 23 by Divine Insight]

To ask whether witchcraft is good or evil is a bogus question to begin with. This would be like asking if a knife is good or evil. A knife can be used for either. In the hands of a criminal it can be used to commit murder, in the hands of a doctor it can be used to save a life through surgery.

Why is it a bogus question? The knife can be used as a weapon to strike or as a utensil. Why are you blind to know the handler is responsible? The same applies if the laws are broken then justice is served which means the person is responsible to uphold the law?

The same is true of witchcraft. However, the Wiccan Rede means that Wiccans cannot perform witchcraft that causes harm. Therefore their witchcraft is necessarily good.

I don't need to provide any specific examples. There is no need for that. That would only distract into arguments over the morality of those specific examples which is absurd.

Why is it hard for you to provide one good example?

In fact, in many parts of the world witches are actually called "Witch Doctors". And they were called upon to heal the sick.

Oh Witch Doctor now I understand. Is it only to heal the sick, anything else?

This is why I prefer to remain a "Solitary Witch" in practice.

Thanks good to know. [/quote]