A large number of Islamic countries have the tradition of having child brides. The continued use of child brides is justified using the story in the Quran of Momahmmad marrying Aeyshea when she was 6.
In Yemen, an 8 year old child bride died of sexual trauma
http://www.albawaba.com/editorchoice/ye ... hts-519066
Every year, there are over 50 million girls under the age of 15 that are forced to marry.
In 2007, it was made illegal to marry under the age of 17 in Yemen, but the conservative lawmakers got that law overturned, because it was 'un-Islamic.'
THis child died as a result.
Why do so many (not all) of Islamic countries cling to the idea of marrying girls off much to young for their health. A girl under the age of 15 that gets pregnant and has a child has many health issues for herself, and the child quite often has health issues too.
Why do they think that is Mohammed did it, it's still justified in this age and time?
Islam and child brides
Moderator: Moderators
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Goat
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Islam and child brides
Post #1“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�
Steven Novella
Steven Novella
Post #11
Goat
Therefore the level of maturity varies. Even more disappointing is the fact that you dont seem to be reading the very posts you are posting, as there seems to be no mention in your link that says that 50 million girls die each year as you claim, so I need ask you, where you are getting your figures from??
With regard to the consummation of the marriage with a minor, it does not become permissible by merely drawing up a marriage contract, rather the husband should not consummate the marriage with her until she is able to have intercourse, this is something that varies from one environment and time to another. With regard to that, Shariah pays attention to physical makeup.
More to the point this is not something uncommon, so you need not be concerned, especially when the minimum age for marriage in the US-State of Delaware in year 1880 was 7:
http://chnm.gmu.edu/cyh/primary-sources/24
Therefore this is not something solely specific to the Muslim world, rather it is a demonstration of how Islam does not change what is permissible and legislated by God at any given time or place just because all of a sudden man decides to ban or disregard something without any evidence, rather we adhere to what is prescribed by Shariah through authentic evidence.
As for your link Goat, it is clear that you havent grasped what we are talking about. This article does not say anywhere that age is a common cause for any health issues, rather it is dealing with health issues relating to "emotional, physical, or sexual abuse; intimate partner violence; living with someone who has substance abuse or mental illness, or is involved in criminal activity; having parents who are divorced or separated" experienced by adolescents. All of which is not accepted in Islam.
So unless you can prove that having a child at a young age has more health concerns due to "age" rather than the older you are, you have nothing. The health issues concerning mothers that fall pregnant at a later stage far outweigh those that are younger.
Provided a marriage is done according to what is accepted by God can never be changed, as Muslims we abide by what is right and forbid what is wrong according to what God has instructed us, we do not wish to change the religion of God according to what is "acceptable" in the eyes of man or society. We will never compremise the religion of God and make excuses for what is permissible to please others.
You need not be disappointed about Islam, as the future of Islam is written, Muslims are happy and content with this beautiful religion of God.
Im even more disappointed by your response Goat, as you seem to think Yemen is ruled under Shariah Law in its totality, which it is not. The very fact that the legislation tries to place a minimum age for marriage is something that goes against Islam, because God All-Mighty created every human being unique and different, our physical bodies vary.I have to say that I am strongly disappointed in your response. Do you not consider Yemen an Islamic country??? Did you not notice that every year, 50 million girls who were married off before they were 17, die before they are 15. Yemen declared the law where women can't be under 17 'un-Islamic', and had it reversed.
As for Mohammed, no, he didn't consummate the marriage to Aeysaha when she was 6, he waited till she was all of 9. Do you think a 6, or a 8, or a 9 year old girl has the ability to say consent??
You seem to be mixing up teenage pregnancies', and pregnancies of women over the age of 40. There is a big gap where there isn't an age related risk factor there.
Here is one link http://www.aafp.org/afp/2007/0501/p1310.html
Adolescent pregnancy also increases the chance of lifetime incontinence to the mother due to the pregnancy.
I was really hoping to get hope that this trend in the third world Islamic countries would be able to be fought. Instead, I get excuses, denials, deflections, and all in all a big disappointment for my viewpoint of how Islam is verses how it could be. I wanted to see some hope for the future of Islam, instead I get excuses and denial.
Therefore the level of maturity varies. Even more disappointing is the fact that you dont seem to be reading the very posts you are posting, as there seems to be no mention in your link that says that 50 million girls die each year as you claim, so I need ask you, where you are getting your figures from??
With regard to the consummation of the marriage with a minor, it does not become permissible by merely drawing up a marriage contract, rather the husband should not consummate the marriage with her until she is able to have intercourse, this is something that varies from one environment and time to another. With regard to that, Shariah pays attention to physical makeup.
More to the point this is not something uncommon, so you need not be concerned, especially when the minimum age for marriage in the US-State of Delaware in year 1880 was 7:
http://chnm.gmu.edu/cyh/primary-sources/24
Therefore this is not something solely specific to the Muslim world, rather it is a demonstration of how Islam does not change what is permissible and legislated by God at any given time or place just because all of a sudden man decides to ban or disregard something without any evidence, rather we adhere to what is prescribed by Shariah through authentic evidence.
As for your link Goat, it is clear that you havent grasped what we are talking about. This article does not say anywhere that age is a common cause for any health issues, rather it is dealing with health issues relating to "emotional, physical, or sexual abuse; intimate partner violence; living with someone who has substance abuse or mental illness, or is involved in criminal activity; having parents who are divorced or separated" experienced by adolescents. All of which is not accepted in Islam.
So unless you can prove that having a child at a young age has more health concerns due to "age" rather than the older you are, you have nothing. The health issues concerning mothers that fall pregnant at a later stage far outweigh those that are younger.
Provided a marriage is done according to what is accepted by God can never be changed, as Muslims we abide by what is right and forbid what is wrong according to what God has instructed us, we do not wish to change the religion of God according to what is "acceptable" in the eyes of man or society. We will never compremise the religion of God and make excuses for what is permissible to please others.
You need not be disappointed about Islam, as the future of Islam is written, Muslims are happy and content with this beautiful religion of God.
Post #12
Keith
Furthermore in regards to pure fundamentalism it is the only answer in combating the biases and misinterpretations of Islam and all world problems of this day and age. I would also just like to add that there is only one interpretation of the Quran and this can only be understood with sound authenticated knowledge.
I do not understand why the west be concerned about Islam, as Islam is all moderation. Moderation in religion means that one does not exaggerate and go beyond the limit set by God, and that one does not neglect it and fall short of the limits set by God. However when we compare the interpretation of what the west have given "moderate Islam" it is far beyond this.
We were witness to the introduction and formal release of the Rand Corporation report in the past entitled Civil Democratic Islam: Partners, Resources, and Strategies.
The report had two fold agendas:
1. Try to create a version of Islam that suit western agendas
2. Creating divisions in the Muslim society at home and abroad
In order to achieve this objective it was encouraged to promote the "so called" modernist Muslims and play one section of the society against another to split the society. In another report they recommended playing the Sunnis and Shiites against each other to achieve policy objects.
This is what the west does in the name of peace and freedom, they sit, plot and plan against Islam, as they are full aware of its truth. The truth is a threat as any authority willing to stand up for justice has been shut down in the past and present, likewise this is happening to Muslims, these are the agenda's of the west. We need look at the bigger picture.
I would like to ask you what "moderate Islam" in your opinion is?? In the eyes of the west this is changing Islam to a belief system "ideal" according to what they "think" is acceptable according to their own beliefs and values.
In fact, there is only One Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and there is only One God, and there is only One Quran, and there is amongst those that adhere to the true teachings of Islam One Muslim, hence only One Islam, hence there can never be a Moderate Islam, this would be a direct insult to Muslims. This idea of creating a moderate Islam goes against the values of our religion as it is only an attempt to change the religion of Islam by those in the west. Applying this notion would be a direct prostration to the west. Something that Muslims will always fight against.
Keith, what I dont understand is why Muslims would need to change how they apply the examples taught to them by the last and final Messenger (peace be upon him)?? He was the best of examples in regards to all aspects of life. I can understand how we would need to change the lack of knowledge and education some Muslims have in terms of them going to extremes with the religion and adding things into it without any evidence, however this wouldnt be considered something that the Prophet (peace be upon him) taught us anyway, especially when something is misunderstood.I think you received an excellent response from Hali. There is surely more than one issue here. Firstly, Islamic teaching contains the tradition of Mohammed's marriage to Ayesha and it will contain it for ever. That cannot change. What can change is how that tradition is applied. People and societies are notoriously capable of being selective in how they interpret their religions. It is clear that the Hadith regarding the consent of the girl was not applied in this case. By picking and choosing what aspects of a religion to apply and which to ignore any religion can be used to serve any purpose.
What we are seeing in recent years is an upswing in a particular interpretation of Islam, one which has its own biases and selectivity. It is a parallel to the rise of fundamentalist Christianity in the West, but 'fundamentalist Islam' is far more powerful than fundamentalism - at least at the moment. It is not unreasonable to suppose that if the fundamentalists obtained comparable power in the west, things would not be much different in the US from how they are in Yemen.
But just as fundamentalism is not the only interpretation of Christianity, Islamism is not the only possible interpretation of Islam. That radical Islam is now well entrenched and seemingly gaining ground is worrying, but I think the reasons for the modern rise of Islamic fundamentalism have to be examined.
Islam cannot be eradicated. If there is a solution it lies in encouraging moderate interpretation of the its teachings. If that is not so, then there is no solution.
Furthermore in regards to pure fundamentalism it is the only answer in combating the biases and misinterpretations of Islam and all world problems of this day and age. I would also just like to add that there is only one interpretation of the Quran and this can only be understood with sound authenticated knowledge.
I do not understand why the west be concerned about Islam, as Islam is all moderation. Moderation in religion means that one does not exaggerate and go beyond the limit set by God, and that one does not neglect it and fall short of the limits set by God. However when we compare the interpretation of what the west have given "moderate Islam" it is far beyond this.
We were witness to the introduction and formal release of the Rand Corporation report in the past entitled Civil Democratic Islam: Partners, Resources, and Strategies.
The report had two fold agendas:
1. Try to create a version of Islam that suit western agendas
2. Creating divisions in the Muslim society at home and abroad
In order to achieve this objective it was encouraged to promote the "so called" modernist Muslims and play one section of the society against another to split the society. In another report they recommended playing the Sunnis and Shiites against each other to achieve policy objects.
This is what the west does in the name of peace and freedom, they sit, plot and plan against Islam, as they are full aware of its truth. The truth is a threat as any authority willing to stand up for justice has been shut down in the past and present, likewise this is happening to Muslims, these are the agenda's of the west. We need look at the bigger picture.
I would like to ask you what "moderate Islam" in your opinion is?? In the eyes of the west this is changing Islam to a belief system "ideal" according to what they "think" is acceptable according to their own beliefs and values.
In fact, there is only One Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and there is only One God, and there is only One Quran, and there is amongst those that adhere to the true teachings of Islam One Muslim, hence only One Islam, hence there can never be a Moderate Islam, this would be a direct insult to Muslims. This idea of creating a moderate Islam goes against the values of our religion as it is only an attempt to change the religion of Islam by those in the west. Applying this notion would be a direct prostration to the west. Something that Muslims will always fight against.
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Goat
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Post #13
I never said Yemen was under Shariarh law in it's totallity, so that is a straw man.HaLi8993 wrote: Goat
Im even more disappointed by your response Goat, as you seem to think Yemen is ruled under Shariah Law in its totality, which it is not. The very fact that the legislation tries to place a minimum age for marriage is something that goes against Islam, because God All-Mighty created every human being unique and different, our physical bodies vary.I have to say that I am strongly disappointed in your response. Do you not consider Yemen an Islamic country??? Did you not notice that every year, 50 million girls who were married off before they were 17, die before they are 15. Yemen declared the law where women can't be under 17 'un-Islamic', and had it reversed.
As for Mohammed, no, he didn't consummate the marriage to Aeysaha when she was 6, he waited till she was all of 9. Do you think a 6, or a 8, or a 9 year old girl has the ability to say consent??
You seem to be mixing up teenage pregnancies', and pregnancies of women over the age of 40. There is a big gap where there isn't an age related risk factor there.
Here is one link http://www.aafp.org/afp/2007/0501/p1310.html
Adolescent pregnancy also increases the chance of lifetime incontinence to the mother due to the pregnancy.
I was really hoping to get hope that this trend in the third world Islamic countries would be able to be fought. Instead, I get excuses, denials, deflections, and all in all a big disappointment for my viewpoint of how Islam is verses how it could be. I wanted to see some hope for the future of Islam, instead I get excuses and denial.
And, since you are then saying putting a minuimn age is against Islam, that makes the point I was making all the stronger. I was hoping that I woudl get some hope for seeing some compassion and understanding in Islam,but you just ruined it totally. I think at this point, the converstaion is at the end, because I want to hold out hope. Instead, I get deflection, strawmen, and not answering the fact that 30 million girls who are forced to marry die so very very young.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�
Steven Novella
Steven Novella
Post #14
Goat
I fail to understand what your intended point is??, in my opinion the conversation has come to an end only because you were unable to prove anything you said Goat, this is merely a common response from people that are shown the truth, and from those that lack a great deal of knowledge about Islam and its teachings. Again I will ask you where you are getting these figures from and if you can support this claim, that 30 million girls forced to marry die due to getting married at an early age.
What you did say Goat, is if I considered Yemen to be an Islamic country, how can it be considered an Islamic country if it is not ruled under Shariah Law in its totality?? so I dont see any straw man here!I never said Yemen was under Shariarh law in it's totallity, so that is a straw man.
And, since you are then saying putting a minuimn age is against Islam, that makes the point I was making all the stronger. I was hoping that I woudl get some hope for seeing some compassion and understanding in Islam,but you just ruined it totally. I think at this point, the converstaion is at the end, because I want to hold out hope. Instead, I get deflection, strawmen, and not answering the fact that 30 million girls who are forced to marry die so very very young.
I fail to understand what your intended point is??, in my opinion the conversation has come to an end only because you were unable to prove anything you said Goat, this is merely a common response from people that are shown the truth, and from those that lack a great deal of knowledge about Islam and its teachings. Again I will ask you where you are getting these figures from and if you can support this claim, that 30 million girls forced to marry die due to getting married at an early age.
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goodwithoutgod
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Post #15
I love misinformation, here let me expound on the Islam obsession with sex with children, like their pedophile prophet..HaLi8993 wrote: Goat
Firstly, can I just say that you are mistaken in saying that a large number of Islamic countries have child brides, this is incorrect. Secondly which country is Islamic?? meaning run under a totality Islamic Law?? Thirdly I do not know of any story in the Quran that talks about Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) marrying Aysha at the age of six, maybe you can give us the chapter or verse you are referring to Goat.A large number of Islamic countries have the tradition of having child brides. The continued use of child brides is justified using the story in the Quran of Momahmmad marrying Aeyshea when she was 6.
In Yemen, an 8 year old child bride died of sexual trauma
http://www.albawaba.com/editorchoice/ye ... hts-519066
Every year, there are over 50 million girls under the age of 15 that are forced to marry.
In 2007, it was made illegal to marry under the age of 17 in Yemen, but the conservative lawmakers got that law overturned, because it was 'un-Islamic.'
THis child died as a result.
Why do so many (not all) of Islamic countries cling to the idea of marrying girls off much to young for their health. A girl under the age of 15 that gets pregnant and has a child has many health issues for herself, and the child quite often has health issues too.
Why do they think that is Mohammed did it, it's still justified in this age and time?
Furthermore in regards to forced marriage, Muslims follow the teachings of the Prophet (peace be upon him) in this regard. It is not permittrd for the guardian (wali) of the woman to force her to marry someone she does not want and does not like, because the Prophet (peace be upon him) said:
The virgin should not be given in marriage until her permission has been sought.
(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 6968; Muslim, 1419.)
The fact that a girl is married does not imply that it is permissible to have intercourse with her, rather the husband should not have intercourse with her until she becomes able for that. Hence the reason why the Prophet (peace be upon him) delayed consummating the marriage to Aysha.
Furthermore I would really like to see these health issues your talking about Goat, in the contrary I can name many heath issues related to women that have children at such a later stage. A lower chance of fertility, miscarrige or a baby with down syndrome and other genetic abnormalities to name a few.
Therefore there are many reasons why Muhammad (peace be upon him) married Aysha, one being that she grew up to become one of the greatest female scholars of her time memorizong many Hadith due to her age. Hence we follow the best of examples provided it is done the right way according to Islamic law without causing any harm or injury.
Allah managed to hand down quite a few "revelations" that sanctioned Muhammad's personal pursuit of sex to the doubters around him. Interestingly they have become part of the the eternal, infallible word of the Qur'an, to be memorized by generations of Muslims for whom they have no possible relevance.
Qur'an (33:37) - "But when Zaid had accomplished his want of her, We gave her to you as a wife, so that there should be no difficulty for the believers in respect of the wives of their adopted sons, when they have accomplished their want of them; and Allah's command shall be performed." No doubt millions of young Muslims, trying to outdo one another at memorizing the Qur'an, have wondered about what this verse means and why it is there. In fact, this is a "revelation" of convenience that Allah just happened to hand down at a time when Muhammad lusted after his daughter-in-law, Zaynab, - a state of affairs that disturbed local customs. The verse "commands" Muhammad to marry the woman (following her husband's gracious divorce). As for why this should be part of the eternal word of God...?
Qur'an (33:50) - "O Prophet! surely We have made lawful to you your wives whom you have given their dowries, and those whom your right hand possesses out of those whom Allah has given to you as prisoners of war, and the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts, and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of your maternal aunts who fled with you; and a believing woman if she gave herself to the Prophet, if the Prophet desired to marry her-- specially for you, not for the (rest of) believers; We know what We have ordained for them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess in order that no blame may attach to you; " This is another special command that Muhammad handed down to himself that allows virtually unlimited sex, divinely sanctioned by Allah. One assumes that this "revelation" was meant to assuage some sort of disgruntlement in the community over Muhammad's hedonism.
Qur'an (33:51) - "You may put off whom you please of them, and you may take to you whom you please, and whom you desire of those whom you had separated provisionally; no blame attaches to you; this is most proper, so that their eyes may be cool and they may not grieve, and that they should be pleased" This is in reference to a situation in which Muhammad's wives were grumbling about his preference for sleeping with a slave girl (Mary the Copt) instead of them. Accordingly, Muhammad may sleep with whichever wife (or slave) he wishes without having to hear the others complain... as revealed in Allah's literal and perfect words to more than a billion Muslims.
Qur'an (66:1-5) - "O Prophet! Why ban thou that which Allah hath made lawful for thee, seeking to please thy wives?..." Another remarkable verse of sexual convenience concerns an episode in which Muhammad's wives were jealous of the attention that he was giving to a Christian slave girl. But, as he pointed out to them, to neglect the sexual availability of his slaves was against Allah's will for him!
Qur'an (4:24) - "And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." Allah even permitted Muhammad and his men to have sex with married slaves, such as those captured in battle.
Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) narrated that the Prophet (may the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) married her when she was six years old, and he consummated her in marriage when she was nine years old. Then she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).
Khadijah died three years before the Prophet (the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) departed to Madina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consummated that marriage when she was nine years old.
Urwa narrated: The Prophet (may the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) wrote the (marriage contract) with Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years.
Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allahs Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.
Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allahs Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and she was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.
This is just a sample of the early Muslim traditions reporting Muhammads marriage to the young Aisha, but it is sufficient to show that she certainly wasnt fifteen years old at the time of the consummation, as some Muslims claim.
here is an educational link for you showing the Islamic proof that his wife was 9yo upon marriage/sex.
http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/prepubescent.htm
Muslims are quick to point out immorality around the world, especially in the West. It seems, then, that they are suggesting a very inconsistent message. When confronted with an immoral practice in another culture, Muslims cry out in one accord, "We condemn these practices, for they are against the eternal, perfect, and unalterable Law of God!" Yet, whenever the moral character of Muhammad is being scrutinized, Muslims suddenly say, "Dont judge Muhammad! You should remember that he was from a different culture! Marrying young girls was common in Arabia, and it still is, thanks to Muhammads precedent. Different people have different moral standards, so no one should worry about Muhammads sexual relationship with a nine-year-old girl."
This convenient switch from moral absolutism to moral relativism is logically unacceptable. If it is wrong to judge the practices of another culture, then both Muhammad and the Quran were wrong for condemning immoral practices in Arabia. But if condemning immoral practices is acceptable, then Muslim apologists need a better response to criticisms of Muhammads relationship with Aisha.
First, Consider a husband on trial for beating his wife. When he takes the stand, he explains, "Your Honor, many women are victims of spousal abuse, and they need someone to talk to. Out of the kindness of my heart, I decided to beat my wife, so that she would be able to comfort other women whose husbands beat them." Such an explanation would never be accepted (except, perhaps, in countries under Islamic rule, where the Quran guarantees a husbands right to beat his wife). Besides, if Muhammad had outlawed sex with children instead of becoming a willing participant, little girls wouldnt have to worry about sex, and they wouldnt need to question Aisha.
Second, it isnt necessary for a lawgiver to institute laws by performing actions that create a precedent. In other words, Muhammad didnt need to marry a young girl in order establish a law about marrying girls who had reached puberty. Muhammad, as Islams lawgiver, could have simply issued a decree. For instance, Muhammad allowed husbands to beat their wives. Was it necessary for Muhammad to beat his wives in order to establish this as a law? Certainly not. Similarly, when an American lawmaker says that killing someone in self-defense is acceptable, no one argues that the lawmaker must go out and kill someone in self-defense if his law is to stand. Hence, the argument that Muhammad needed to marry a young girl to establish puberty as the appropriate age for marriage completely fails.
Third, the Muslim claim that Aisha was a "precocious child" strains the evidence. Aisha herself reports that, when she was taken to Muhammads house, she was playing on a swing with her friends. She was also still playing with dolls. Based on the evidence, Aisha sounds like a normal little girl, not like a young adult. Besides, Muhammad didnt marry her because she was precocious; he married her because he was dreaming about her.
Fourth, it is unlikely that God was using Muhammads relationship with Aisha to establish puberty as the appropriate age for marriage, since the Quran itself seems to allow marriage to prepubescent girls. According to Surah 65:4, a man must wait three months to divorce a wife who hasnt yet reached menses. If Islam allows a man to divorce a girl who isnt old enough to have her period, it follows that Islam also allows a man to marry a girl who hasnt yet reached menses. And if the Quran allows marriage to prepubescent girls, then Muhammads marriage to Aisha would in no way rule out such a practice.
Fifth, Muslims search for reasons to justify Muhammads relationship with Aisha because they are convinced that everything Muhammad did had a divine purpose behind it. When critics point out Muhammads numerous murders and assassinations, Muslims claim that these violent acts were just. When critics note the extent of Muhammads polygamy, or his participation in the slave-trade, or his countless robberies, Muslims provide answers based on the view that Muhammad was an outstanding moral example. Similarly, when Muslims are confronted with the evidence for Muhammads sexual encounters with Aisha, they assume that there must have been a reason for it. They then invent reasons for Muhammads behavior (i.e. the other little girls needed someone to talk to about sex), and they offer these reasons as a defense of Muhammads morality. However, non-Muslims do not share this confidence in Muhammads moral perfection. Indeed, when non-Muslims hear about Muhammads violence, his greed, his polygamy, and his support of spousal abuse, we arent as quick to say "He must have had a reason" as Muslims seem to be. Because of this, Muslim justifications for Muhammads marriage to Aisha sound hollow when presented as a logical defense of his actions.
Finally, Muslim explanations for Muhammads behavior fail to take into account the dangers that accompany sex at a young age. Many Muslims claim that, as soon as a young girl gets her first period, she is ready to bear children. This "old enough to bleed, old enough to breed" mentality, aside from being disgusting, is completely false. A nine-year-old girl isnt ready for sex or children, even if she reaches menses earlier than other little girls. Children that young are still growing; when they become pregnant, their bodies divert nutritional resources to the developing fetus, depriving the growing girls of much-needed vitamins and minerals. Further, complications often result from adolescent pregnancies, because the bodies of the young girls simply arent ready to give birth.
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junaidbasha
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Post #16
Praise be to Allaah.
Firstly:
It is permissible for a man to arrange a marriage for his young son even if he has not reached puberty; it is also permissible for him to arrange a marriage for his young daughter even if she had not reached the age of puberty. It was narrated that there was consensus on this point, but that is provided that compatibility is taken into account and that a clear and real interest is served by this marriage.
Ibn Abd al-Barr (may Allah have mercy on him) said:
The scholars are unanimously agreed that the father may arrange a marriage for his young daughter without consulting her. The Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) married Aaishah when she was six years old.
End quote from at-Tamheed, 19/98
Ismaaeel ibn Ishaaq (may Allah have mercy on him) said:
The father may arrange a marriage for a young (daughter) according to the consensus of the Muslims, and that is binding on her.
End quote from at-Tamheed, 19/84
Ibn Shubrumah disagreed with that, as we shall see below.
Secondly:
It is not prescribed to arrange a marriage for a young girl unless there is a clear and real interest to be served by doing so. The same applies to young boys, but the ruling is emphasized more with regard to girls because a boy has the power of divorce (talaaq).
An-Nawawi (may Allah have mercy on him) said:
It should be noted that ash-Shaafai and his companions said: It is recommended for the father or grandfather not to arrange a marriage for a virgin until she reaches the age of puberty and he seeks her consent, lest she find herself trapped in a marriage that she resents. What they said is not contrary to the hadeeth of Aaishah, because what they meant is that he should not give her in marriage before puberty if there is no clear and real interest to be served by that for which there is the fear that it will be missed by delaying marriage, such as the story of Aaishah. In that case (i.e., if there is a clear and real interest to be served) it is recommended not to miss the opportunity to marry that husband, because the father is enjoined to take care of his childrens interests, not to neglect them.
End quote from Sharh Muslim, 9/206
Shaykh Ibn Uthaymeen (may Allah have mercy on him) was of the view that in the case of a girl who has reached the age of nine years it is stipulated that she give consent and he said: This is the view favoured by Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah, and this is the correct view.
With regard to the girl who is younger than the age of nine years, he favoured the view that the father does not have the right to arrange a marriage. He narrated from Ibn Shubrumah (may Allah have mercy on him) that he said: It is not permissible to arrange a marriage for a young girl who has not reached the age of puberty, because if we say that that is subject to her consent, her consent does not count (because she is too young to make such decisions), and when she does reach the age of puberty we believe that she should not be forced into a marriage. The Shaykh said: This view is the correct one, that the father should not arrange a marriage for his daughter until she reaches the age of puberty, and when she reaches the age of puberty he should not arrange a marriage unless she gives her consent.
But if we assume that a man regards this suitor as compatible and he is old, and there is the fear that if he passes away and guardianship of the girl passes to her brothers, they may not take the matter of her marriage seriously and they may arrange her marriage according to their whims and desires, not according to what is in her best interests, and he thinks that it is in her best interests to arrange her marriage to someone who is compatible, there is nothing wrong with that, but she will have the choice when she grows up; if she wishes she may say: I do not agree to this and I do not want it.
If the matter is like this, then the safest option is not to arrange her marriage and to entrust her to Allah, may He be glorified and exalted. Perhaps now he thinks that this man is compatible but then the mans situation may change, and perhaps when she reaches the age of marriage Allah will bring her a man who is better than this man, because all things are in the hand of Allah, may He be glorified and exalted.
End quote from ash-Sharh al-Mumti, 12/57-59
The Shaykh also favoured the view that marriage should not be arranged for a boy until he reaches the age of puberty.
Ash-Sharh al-Mumti, 12/53
With regard to consummation of the marriage with a minor, it does not become permissible by merely drawing up the marriage contract; rather the husband should not consummate the marriage with her until she is able to have intercourse, which is not necessarily at puberty. This is something that varies from one environment and time to another. With regard to that, shareeah pays attention to physical makeup.
See the answer to question no. 146882 and 127176
Thirdly:
From the words of the Muslim fuqaha concerning this issue, it is clear that marriage of minors is based on achieving clear and real interests thereby. If marriage of a young girl will serve some very real interest for her, then her guardian may arrange a marriage for her, but if no real interest will be served for her by that, then he does not have the right to arrange a marriage when she is still a minor, until she can choose for herself and give consent.
That is not a transgression against her rights, as may be said with regard to the trustees handling of the orphans wealth; it is permissible for him to buy and sell on his behalf without obtaining his consent, if that serve a clear and real interest and is more beneficial for him and his wealth.
The view concerning young boys is the same as that concerning young girls; it is essential for the guardian to take into consideration what interests may be achieved for the minor thereby.
This is applicable in all cases in which Islam gives permission to conduct affairs on behalf of another and gives guardianship of another. Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allah have mercy on him) said:
If a person has authority to handle the affairs or wealth of another, either as a guardian or by appointment as a proxy, it is not permissible for him to do whatever he wants; he has to choose that which is in (his wards) best interests.
End quote from Mukhtasar al-Fataawa al-Masriyyah, 796
Based on that, one should take the appropriate approach to the emotional aspect of this issue, because choosing the right person for the woman in terms of his character and choosing the right time for arranging this marriage is in fact paying attention to the womans natural and emotional needs and inclinations. Emotion here does not refer to love relationships and infatuations that may occur between young men and women; these relationships and ideas are one thing and the reality of life is something else. How many marriages have started with these relationships but soon failed, and how many marriages have started without prior acquaintance between the spouses but Allah created love, compassion, tranquillity and harmony between them, and they continued to live happily together.
And Allah knows best.
Firstly:
It is permissible for a man to arrange a marriage for his young son even if he has not reached puberty; it is also permissible for him to arrange a marriage for his young daughter even if she had not reached the age of puberty. It was narrated that there was consensus on this point, but that is provided that compatibility is taken into account and that a clear and real interest is served by this marriage.
Ibn Abd al-Barr (may Allah have mercy on him) said:
The scholars are unanimously agreed that the father may arrange a marriage for his young daughter without consulting her. The Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) married Aaishah when she was six years old.
End quote from at-Tamheed, 19/98
Ismaaeel ibn Ishaaq (may Allah have mercy on him) said:
The father may arrange a marriage for a young (daughter) according to the consensus of the Muslims, and that is binding on her.
End quote from at-Tamheed, 19/84
Ibn Shubrumah disagreed with that, as we shall see below.
Secondly:
It is not prescribed to arrange a marriage for a young girl unless there is a clear and real interest to be served by doing so. The same applies to young boys, but the ruling is emphasized more with regard to girls because a boy has the power of divorce (talaaq).
An-Nawawi (may Allah have mercy on him) said:
It should be noted that ash-Shaafai and his companions said: It is recommended for the father or grandfather not to arrange a marriage for a virgin until she reaches the age of puberty and he seeks her consent, lest she find herself trapped in a marriage that she resents. What they said is not contrary to the hadeeth of Aaishah, because what they meant is that he should not give her in marriage before puberty if there is no clear and real interest to be served by that for which there is the fear that it will be missed by delaying marriage, such as the story of Aaishah. In that case (i.e., if there is a clear and real interest to be served) it is recommended not to miss the opportunity to marry that husband, because the father is enjoined to take care of his childrens interests, not to neglect them.
End quote from Sharh Muslim, 9/206
Shaykh Ibn Uthaymeen (may Allah have mercy on him) was of the view that in the case of a girl who has reached the age of nine years it is stipulated that she give consent and he said: This is the view favoured by Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah, and this is the correct view.
With regard to the girl who is younger than the age of nine years, he favoured the view that the father does not have the right to arrange a marriage. He narrated from Ibn Shubrumah (may Allah have mercy on him) that he said: It is not permissible to arrange a marriage for a young girl who has not reached the age of puberty, because if we say that that is subject to her consent, her consent does not count (because she is too young to make such decisions), and when she does reach the age of puberty we believe that she should not be forced into a marriage. The Shaykh said: This view is the correct one, that the father should not arrange a marriage for his daughter until she reaches the age of puberty, and when she reaches the age of puberty he should not arrange a marriage unless she gives her consent.
But if we assume that a man regards this suitor as compatible and he is old, and there is the fear that if he passes away and guardianship of the girl passes to her brothers, they may not take the matter of her marriage seriously and they may arrange her marriage according to their whims and desires, not according to what is in her best interests, and he thinks that it is in her best interests to arrange her marriage to someone who is compatible, there is nothing wrong with that, but she will have the choice when she grows up; if she wishes she may say: I do not agree to this and I do not want it.
If the matter is like this, then the safest option is not to arrange her marriage and to entrust her to Allah, may He be glorified and exalted. Perhaps now he thinks that this man is compatible but then the mans situation may change, and perhaps when she reaches the age of marriage Allah will bring her a man who is better than this man, because all things are in the hand of Allah, may He be glorified and exalted.
End quote from ash-Sharh al-Mumti, 12/57-59
The Shaykh also favoured the view that marriage should not be arranged for a boy until he reaches the age of puberty.
Ash-Sharh al-Mumti, 12/53
With regard to consummation of the marriage with a minor, it does not become permissible by merely drawing up the marriage contract; rather the husband should not consummate the marriage with her until she is able to have intercourse, which is not necessarily at puberty. This is something that varies from one environment and time to another. With regard to that, shareeah pays attention to physical makeup.
See the answer to question no. 146882 and 127176
Thirdly:
From the words of the Muslim fuqaha concerning this issue, it is clear that marriage of minors is based on achieving clear and real interests thereby. If marriage of a young girl will serve some very real interest for her, then her guardian may arrange a marriage for her, but if no real interest will be served for her by that, then he does not have the right to arrange a marriage when she is still a minor, until she can choose for herself and give consent.
That is not a transgression against her rights, as may be said with regard to the trustees handling of the orphans wealth; it is permissible for him to buy and sell on his behalf without obtaining his consent, if that serve a clear and real interest and is more beneficial for him and his wealth.
The view concerning young boys is the same as that concerning young girls; it is essential for the guardian to take into consideration what interests may be achieved for the minor thereby.
This is applicable in all cases in which Islam gives permission to conduct affairs on behalf of another and gives guardianship of another. Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allah have mercy on him) said:
If a person has authority to handle the affairs or wealth of another, either as a guardian or by appointment as a proxy, it is not permissible for him to do whatever he wants; he has to choose that which is in (his wards) best interests.
End quote from Mukhtasar al-Fataawa al-Masriyyah, 796
Based on that, one should take the appropriate approach to the emotional aspect of this issue, because choosing the right person for the woman in terms of his character and choosing the right time for arranging this marriage is in fact paying attention to the womans natural and emotional needs and inclinations. Emotion here does not refer to love relationships and infatuations that may occur between young men and women; these relationships and ideas are one thing and the reality of life is something else. How many marriages have started with these relationships but soon failed, and how many marriages have started without prior acquaintance between the spouses but Allah created love, compassion, tranquillity and harmony between them, and they continued to live happily together.
And Allah knows best.
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Goat
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Post #17
Well, that's the whole point now isn't it. We have MEDICAL knowledge that Mohammed did not, and we can see the negative effects of girls being forced to get married before the age of 18. Those girls have a much higher chance of dying in child birth. Those girls have a much higher chance of disabilities due to child birth. The childred of those girls have a higher chance of disabilities.junaidbasha wrote: Praise be to Allaah.
Firstly:
It is permissible for a man to arrange a marriage for his young son even if he has not reached puberty; it is also permissible for him to arrange a marriage for his young daughter even if she had not reached the age of puberty. It was narrated that there was consensus on this point, but that is provided that compatibility is taken into account and that a clear and real interest is served by this marriage.
<snipping a whole bunch of preaching>
And Allah knows best.
And, all this gets justified by 'holy scriptures'...
While Allah knows best, the people who think they are following him do not.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�
Steven Novella
Steven Novella
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junaidbasha
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Post #18
Marrying a young girl before she reaches the age of adolescence is permitted in shareeah; indeed it was narrated that there was scholarly consensus on this point.
(a) Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubt (about their periods), is three months; and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise
[al-Talaaq 65:4]
In this verse we see that Allaah has made the iddah in the case of divorce of a girl who does not have periods " because she is young and has not yet reached puberty " three months. This clearly indicates that Allaah has made this a valid marriage.
(b) It was narrated from Aaishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) married her when she was six years old, he consummated the marriage with her when she was nine and she stayed with him for nine years.
(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 4840; Muslim, 1422)
The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) married Aaishah when she was six years old and consummated the marriage when she was nine.
(Narrated by al-Bukhaari and Muslim; Muslim says seven years)
The fact that it is permissible to marry a young girl does not mean that it is permissible to have intercourse with her; rather that should not be done until she is able for it. For that reason the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) delayed the consummation of his marriage to Aaishah. Al-Nawawi said: With regard to the wedding-party of a young married girl at the time of consummating the marriage, if the husband and the guardian of the girl agree upon something that will not cause harm to the young girl, then that may be done. If they disagree, then Ahmad and Abu Ubayd say that one a girl reaches the age of nine then the marriage may be consummated even without her consent, but that does not apply in the case of who is younger. Maalik, al-Shaafai and Abu Haneefah said: the marriage may be consummated when the girl is able for intercourse, which varies from one girl to another, so no age limit can be set. This is the correct view. There is nothing in the hadeeth of Aaishah to set an age limit, or to forbid that in the case of a girl who is able for it before the age of nine, or to allow it in the case of a girl who is not able for it and has reached the age of nine. Al-Dawoodi said: Aaishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) was reached physical maturity (at the time when her marriage was consummated).
Sharh Muslim, 9/206
It is preferable for a guardian not to marry off his daughter when she is still young unless there is a valid reason for that.
Al-Nawawi said:
It should be noted that al-Shaafai and his companions said: It is preferable for fathers and grandfathers not to marry off a virgin until she reaches the age of puberty and they ask her permission, lest she end up in a marriage that she dislikes. What they said does not go against the hadeeth of Aaishah, because what they meant is that they should not marry her off before she reaches puberty if there is no obvious interest to be served that they fear will be missed out on if they delay it, as in the hadeeth of Aaishah. In that case it is preferable to go ahead with the marriage because the father is enjoined to take care of his childs interests and not to let a good opportunity slip away.
And Allaah knows best.
(a) Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubt (about their periods), is three months; and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise
[al-Talaaq 65:4]
In this verse we see that Allaah has made the iddah in the case of divorce of a girl who does not have periods " because she is young and has not yet reached puberty " three months. This clearly indicates that Allaah has made this a valid marriage.
(b) It was narrated from Aaishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) married her when she was six years old, he consummated the marriage with her when she was nine and she stayed with him for nine years.
(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 4840; Muslim, 1422)
The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) married Aaishah when she was six years old and consummated the marriage when she was nine.
(Narrated by al-Bukhaari and Muslim; Muslim says seven years)
The fact that it is permissible to marry a young girl does not mean that it is permissible to have intercourse with her; rather that should not be done until she is able for it. For that reason the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) delayed the consummation of his marriage to Aaishah. Al-Nawawi said: With regard to the wedding-party of a young married girl at the time of consummating the marriage, if the husband and the guardian of the girl agree upon something that will not cause harm to the young girl, then that may be done. If they disagree, then Ahmad and Abu Ubayd say that one a girl reaches the age of nine then the marriage may be consummated even without her consent, but that does not apply in the case of who is younger. Maalik, al-Shaafai and Abu Haneefah said: the marriage may be consummated when the girl is able for intercourse, which varies from one girl to another, so no age limit can be set. This is the correct view. There is nothing in the hadeeth of Aaishah to set an age limit, or to forbid that in the case of a girl who is able for it before the age of nine, or to allow it in the case of a girl who is not able for it and has reached the age of nine. Al-Dawoodi said: Aaishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) was reached physical maturity (at the time when her marriage was consummated).
Sharh Muslim, 9/206
It is preferable for a guardian not to marry off his daughter when she is still young unless there is a valid reason for that.
Al-Nawawi said:
It should be noted that al-Shaafai and his companions said: It is preferable for fathers and grandfathers not to marry off a virgin until she reaches the age of puberty and they ask her permission, lest she end up in a marriage that she dislikes. What they said does not go against the hadeeth of Aaishah, because what they meant is that they should not marry her off before she reaches puberty if there is no obvious interest to be served that they fear will be missed out on if they delay it, as in the hadeeth of Aaishah. In that case it is preferable to go ahead with the marriage because the father is enjoined to take care of his childs interests and not to let a good opportunity slip away.
And Allaah knows best.
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junaidbasha
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Post #19
With regard to the issue being young and your being confused about that, you should note that the arabs grew up in a hot country, the Arabian Peninsula. Usually in hot countries adolescence comes early and people marry early. This is how the people of Arabia were until recently. Moreover, women vary greatly in their development and their physical readiness for marriage.
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goodwithoutgod
- Scholar
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Post #20
no 6 yo or 9yo is physically mature enough for sex....never, ever, ever. To justify this mentality via a book written by ignorant uneducated barbaric goat herders does not give it validity. For you to even posit this just validates my point...that islam embraces child rape. Thanks for making my point.junaidbasha wrote: With regard to the issue being young and your being confused about that, you should note that the arabs grew up in a hot country, the Arabian Peninsula. Usually in hot countries adolescence comes early and people marry early. This is how the people of Arabia were until recently. Moreover, women vary greatly in their development and their physical readiness for marriage.
