Let's cut to the chase. Do you have any evidence?

[no evidence no belief]

I feel like we've been beating around the bush for... 6000 years!

Can you please either provide some evidence for your supernatural beliefs, or admit that you have no evidence?

If you believe there once was a talking donkey (Numbers 22) could you please provide evidence?

If you believe there once was a zombie invasion in Jerusalem (Mat 27) could you please provide evidence?

If you believe in the flying horse (Islam) could you please provide evidence?

Walking on water, virgin births, radioactive spiders who give you superpowers, turning water into wine, turning iron into gold, demons, goblins, ghosts, hobbits, elves, angels, unicorns and Santa.

Can you PLEASE provide evidence?

[help3434]

What sort of evidence would you like?

The question is a bit moot. Since it is those with religious beliefs that are making the positive assertion, the onus is on them to provide convincing evidence. The more relevant question is "What evidence have you got?" Let us know what it is that convinced you and your colleagues, and we can thoroughly skeptically and rationally evaluate it.

Would you like God to appear to you? talk to you? And even then how could you know for sure if it is God and not your imagination or an evil spirit deceiving you?

Good point. Even a personal appearance by the goddess Ixtab might not convince me of her existence, as you say, it might just be may be an undigested bit of beef, a blot of mustard, a crumb of cheese, a fragment of an underdone potato. So, I ask again, what have you got?

Well, you have just put your finger on why I don't claim to be able to prove that God exists, and don't try. If a personal appearance by God (or 'a' god) wouldn't convince you of his/her/its existence, then nothing would.

Scientifically minded people are still people, and people all tend to discard any evidence (of any description) that messes with their preconceptions. The only difference between me and all the other theists (and atheists) regarding this is that, well....I'm right.

(grin)

I disagree. You say that if a personal appearance by a God wouldn't convince then nothing would. You chalk that up to people not accepting evidence that goes against their preconceptions. However, many people have had visions of deity appearing them. I think that many of these people really mean it, that they are not all lying. Yet many of these visions contradict each other. This shows that visions are not a reliable way of finding out about reality. Why should I be so arrogant to think that any visions that I may ever have are any different than the contradicting visions of other visionaries? There should be evidence beyond that, preferably tangible evidence that third parties can examine so I know that it not just all in my head.

[dianaiad]

What sort of evidence would you like?

The question is a bit moot. Since it is those with religious beliefs that are making the positive assertion, the onus is on them to provide convincing evidence. The more relevant question is "What evidence have you got?" Let us know what it is that convinced you and your colleagues, and we can thoroughly skeptically and rationally evaluate it.

Would you like God to appear to you? talk to you? And even then how could you know for sure if it is God and not your imagination or an evil spirit deceiving you?

Good point. Even a personal appearance by the goddess Ixtab might not convince me of her existence, as you say, it might just be may be an undigested bit of beef, a blot of mustard, a crumb of cheese, a fragment of an underdone potato. So, I ask again, what have you got?

Well, you have just put your finger on why I don't claim to be able to prove that God exists, and don't try. If a personal appearance by God (or 'a' god) wouldn't convince you of his/her/its existence, then nothing would.

Scientifically minded people are still people, and people all tend to discard any evidence (of any description) that messes with their preconceptions. The only difference between me and all the other theists (and atheists) regarding this is that, well....I'm right.

(grin)

I disagree. You say that if a personal appearance by a God wouldn't convince then nothing would. You chalk that up to people not accepting evidence that goes against their preconceptions. However, many people have had visions of deity appearing them. I think that many of these people really mean it, that they are not all lying. Yet many of these visions contradict each other. This shows that visions are not a reliable way of finding out about reality. Why should I be so arrogant to think that any visions that I may ever have are any different than the contradicting visions of other visionaries? There should be evidence beyond that, preferably tangible evidence that third parties can examine so I know that it not just all in my head.

Please note: I did not refer to 'a vision.' I wrote 'personal appearance.' As in, He really shows up.

There's a running joke among Mormons...too true to be all THAT funny...about how we could find a road sign, properly carbon-dated and authenticated, with 'Zarahemla, 5 (proper unit of measurement) ahead' engraved upon it, with an arrow pointing at a city with 'Zarahemla" on all the buildings, and the anti-Mormons would STILL not believe that such a city existed, nor that the BoM had any accuracy in it.

Several of the folks in this thread have confirmed the idea behind that joke; God could personally show up and they still would not believe; they'd find some way of dismissing the experience. "More of gravy than of grave," indeed.

[help3434]

[Replying to post 2476 by dianaiad]

How would you know the difference? Even God and Jesus appearing to Joseph Smith is called "the First Vision".

[olavisjo]

.

One cannot will into existence beings a priori. The perfect thing does not exist just because I can, in the abstract, imagine such a thing.

True enough, the perfect thing does not exist just because you can, in the abstract, imagine such a thing.
Rather, because you can, in the abstract, imagine the perfect thing existing, you can know that the perfect thing does exist.
It is similar to...
You do not exist just because you can, in the abstract, imagine existing.
Rather, because you can, in the abstract, imagine existing, you can know that you do exist.

[help3434]

[Replying to post 2478 by olavisjo]

What, what? Are you saying we are only capable of imagining things that exist? Absurd.

[dianaiad]

[Replying to post 2476 by dianaiad]

How would you know the difference? Even God and Jesus appearing to Joseph Smith is called "the First Vision".

That's the key, isn't it?

If you are convinced that God does not exist, then there is no difference; it's all "vision.' How would you suggest that God prove that He was actually THERE, rather than being a mental abberation/hallucination? Would it be possible to do?

[Tired of the Nonsense]

Uh oh, nenb just bought the big one. He was nominated for rookie of the year too. Wouldn't it be funny if.....

[Sir Hamilton]

[Replying to post 1 by no evidence no belief]

What sort of evidence would you like? Would you like God to appear to you? talk to you? And even then how could you know for sure if it is God and not your imagination or an evil spirit deceiving you?

I would be impressed if the literary quality of the Bible or Quran greatly exceeded the works of mere mortals like Shakespeare, Shelly, Keats, E E Cummings, William Blake and so forth.
Mere mortals wrote the Bible inspired by God. Literary quality is unimportant.
I'd be impressed if there was dramatically less crime in States and countries that have a more religious population. Instead there's more crime in religious localities.
Never looked at the stats for that one....i wonder if you can believe them? Besides..religion doesn't make one a good person....
I'd be impressed if the Bible was consistent with what science teaches us, instead of simply reflecting the scientific understanding of the time and place where it was written.
Be a little more specific...when you say science are you refering to Big Bang, abiogenesis, evolution?? You know all those things that science can not prove.
I'd be impressed if the gospel accounts were written in the language of the people who supposedly viewed the events, and those accounts were published contemporaneously with the events they purport to represent.
You will have to learn Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic for that one.
I'd be impressed if the miracles that believers were promised they could perform, were actually performed.
Such as?
And yes, I'd be impressed if God actually communicated with us clearly and explained that 90% or so of those who claim to speak for Him are full of chowder and completely misrepresent God.
Probably at least 90%.
I am impressed when those who defend the faith do so with 'gentleness and respect.'

How was i being disrespectful and ungentle? [font=Impact][/font]

[Sir Hamilton]

[Replying to post 1 by no evidence no belief]

What sort of evidence would you like? Would you like God to appear to you? talk to you? And even then how could you know for sure if it is God and not your imagination or an evil spirit deceiving you?

I would be impressed if the literary quality of the Bible or Quran greatly exceeded the works of mere mortals like Shakespeare, Shelly, Keats, E E Cummings, William Blake and so forth.
Mere mortals wrote the Bible inspired by God. Literary quality is unimportant.
I'd be impressed if there was dramatically less crime in States and countries that have a more religious population. Instead there's more crime in religious localities.
Never looked at the stats for that one....i wonder if you can believe them? Besides..religion doesn't make one a good person....
I'd be impressed if the Bible was consistent with what science teaches us, instead of simply reflecting the scientific understanding of the time and place where it was written.
Be a little more specific...when you say science are you refering to Big Bang, abiogenesis, evolution?? You know all those things that science can not prove.
I'd be impressed if the gospel accounts were written in the language of the people who supposedly viewed the events, and those accounts were published contemporaneously with the events they purport to represent.
You will have to learn Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic for that one.
I'd be impressed if the miracles that believers were promised they could perform, were actually performed.
Such as?
And yes, I'd be impressed if God actually communicated with us clearly and explained that 90% or so of those who claim to speak for Him are full of chowder and completely misrepresent God.
Probably at least 90%.
I am impressed when those who defend the faith do so with 'gentleness and respect.'

How was i being disrespectful and ungentle? [font=Impact][/font]

[Sir Hamilton]

[Replying to post 1 by no evidence no belief]

What sort of evidence would you like? Would you like God to appear to you? talk to you? And even then how could you know for sure if it is God and not your imagination or an evil spirit deceiving you?

I would be impressed if the literary quality of the Bible or Quran greatly exceeded the works of mere mortals like Shakespeare, Shelly, Keats, E E Cummings, William Blake and so forth.

I'd be impressed if there was dramatically less crime in States and countries that have a more religious population. Instead there's more crime in religious localities.

I'd be impressed if the Bible was consistent with what science teaches us, instead of simply reflecting the scientific understanding of the time and place where it was written.

I'd be impressed if the gospel accounts were written in the language of the people who supposedly viewed the events, and those accounts were published contemporaneously with the events they purport to represent.

I'd be impressed if the miracles that believers were promised they could perform, were actually performed.

And yes, I'd be impressed if God actually communicated with us clearly and explained that 90% or so of those who claim to speak for Him are full of chowder and completely misrepresent God.

I am impressed when those who defend the faith do so with 'gentleness and respect.'

Mere mortals wrote the Bible inspired by God. Literary quality is unimportant. Never looked at the stats on that one...i wonder if you can trust them? Besides religion doesn't make one a good person.

• Be a little more specific...science is a rather large subject....are you refering to the Big Bang, abiogenesis, and evolution? Hypothesis' that science can not prove.
  • Go study Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic for that one.
  Which miracles?
  • At least 90%.
  How am i being disrespectful and ungentle??