Let's cut to the chase. Do you have any evidence?

[no evidence no belief]

I feel like we've been beating around the bush for... 6000 years!

Can you please either provide some evidence for your supernatural beliefs, or admit that you have no evidence?

If you believe there once was a talking donkey (Numbers 22) could you please provide evidence?

If you believe there once was a zombie invasion in Jerusalem (Mat 27) could you please provide evidence?

If you believe in the flying horse (Islam) could you please provide evidence?

Walking on water, virgin births, radioactive spiders who give you superpowers, turning water into wine, turning iron into gold, demons, goblins, ghosts, hobbits, elves, angels, unicorns and Santa.

Can you PLEASE provide evidence?

[Danmark]

Why does it take an extra step to come up with the idea of a god when this God has revealed Himself to some?....like me. I like to go with God has always existed. ....

That is my point, that you accept that 'God has always existed' but deny that possibility that the universe has always existed. It takes a 'extra step' because we start with the universe, then add the fantastic, the supernatural, the personality: 'God.'
You claim God has 'revealed himself to you. Please explain how 'he' has done so.
Did you see him, the way you see people in your every day life? Did you hear him the way you hear the grocery clerk ask, 'Is there anything else I can help you with?'

I ask this, because your entire argument rests upon this one claim, that God has revealed Himself to you. Since this is an extraordinary claim, a claim that goes beyond our normal senses, or at least beyond what people normally report, it is fair to ask the circumstances and detail about this revelation you claim.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to iamtaka]

This "uncreated intelligent designer who is almost infinitely more complicated than an RNA molecule" is not the god of Christianity. Christian theism adheres to a doctrine of divine simplicity.

Divine Simplicity
First published Mon Mar 20, 2006; substantive revision Fri Jul 2, 2010
According to the classical theism of Augustine, Anselm, Aquinas and their adherents, God is radically unlike creatures in that he is devoid of any complexity or composition, whether physical or metaphysical. Besides lacking spatial and temporal parts, God is free of matter/form composition, potency/act composition, and existence/essence composition. There is also no real distinction between God as subject of his attributes and his attributes. God is thus in a sense requiring clarification identical to each of his attributes, which implies that each attribute is identical to every other one. God is omniscient, then, not in virtue of instantiating or exemplifying omniscience " which would imply a real distinction between God and the property of omniscience " but by being omniscience. And the same holds for each of the divine omni-attributes: God is what he has. As identical to each of his attributes, God is identical to his nature. And since his nature or essence is identical to his existence, God is identical to his existence. This is the doctrine of divine simplicity (DDS). It is represented not only in classical Christian theology, but also in Jewish, Greek, and Islamic thought. It is to be understood as an affirmation of God's absolute transcendence of creatures. God is not only radically non-anthropomorphic, but radically non-creaturomorphic, not only in respect of the properties he possesses, but in his manner of possessing them. God, we could say, differs in his very ontology from any and all created beings.


Christians declare that an invisible all powerful all knowing but ultimately unknowable Being, fully omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent, who can manipulate matter and alter the laws of physics at His whim, who created everything which exists from a word but who is not responsible for evil, and who at times becomes frustrated, disappointed and angry at the way human events transpire, sent Himself to earth in human form to die in agony so to shed His own blood in accordance with His own rules and so redeem humankind for succumbing to the lies of the evil being that the all knowing infallible Being created but is not responsible for. And this redeemer who has been proclaimed to be about to return at any moment now for the last 2,000 years will judge humankind and allow the invisible souls of the righteous to enter into an invisible dwelling place to be with the invisible Being. But this invisible omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent unknowable Being is actually divinely simple. Less complicated in fact then a simple RNA molecule. No, seriously folks! None of this represents make believe in any way! It's all twue and could hardly be more obvious!

[Sir Hamilton]

Why does it take an extra step to come up with the idea of a god when this God has revealed Himself to some?....like me. I like to go with God has always existed. ....

That is my point, that you accept that 'God has always existed' but deny that possibility that the universe has always existed. It takes a 'extra step' because we start with the universe, then add the fantastic, the supernatural, the personality: 'God.'
You claim God has 'revealed himself to you. Please explain how 'he' has done so.
Did you see him, the way you see people in your every day life? Did you hear him the way you hear the grocery clerk ask, 'Is there anything else I can help you with?'

I ask this, because your entire argument rests upon this one claim, that God has revealed Himself to you. Since this is an extraordinary claim, a claim that goes beyond our normal senses, or at least beyond what people normally report, it is fair to ask the circumstances and detail about this revelation you claim.

That is a very good question. For me there was no vision or dream...no miraculous event that I can point to that God sent to me personally. He has always been there. That still small voice has always been there as long as I can remember. I guess that is kind of boring but that is the way it is with me...unlike you. You had Jesus appear to you and talk to you and tell you he was not divine. Now having said that which one do you believe? Has the universe just always been or did it have an origin and if so who or what created the universe?

[Danmark]

Why does it take an extra step to come up with the idea of a god when this God has revealed Himself to some?....like me. I like to go with God has always existed. ....

That is my point, that you accept that 'God has always existed' but deny that possibility that the universe has always existed. It takes a 'extra step' because we start with the universe, then add the fantastic, the supernatural, the personality: 'God.'
You claim God has 'revealed himself to you. Please explain how 'he' has done so.
Did you see him, the way you see people in your every day life? Did you hear him the way you hear the grocery clerk ask, 'Is there anything else I can help you with?'

I ask this, because your entire argument rests upon this one claim, that God has revealed Himself to you. Since this is an extraordinary claim, a claim that goes beyond our normal senses, or at least beyond what people normally report, it is fair to ask the circumstances and detail about this revelation you claim.

That is a very good question. For me there was no vision or dream...no miraculous event that I can point to that God sent to me personally. He has always been there. That still small voice has always been there as long as I can remember. I guess that is kind of boring but that is the way it is with me...unlike you. You had Jesus appear to you and talk to you and tell you he was not divine. Now having said that which one do you believe? Has the universe just always been or did it have an origin and if so who or what created the universe?

I can accept that my experience* arose from inside my own mind; that there was nothing supernatural about it. In fact, to me that seems the most likely explanation. I only mention it in the interest of candor and as a reference point for others who have claimed to have had similar experiences, like Paul and Joseph Smith.

Not everyone has such an experience, but everyone has a 'still small voice.' It's generally called a conscience. It is my contention The unconscious mind is so great, unfathomable and mysterious that it is mistaken for god. Most of us greatly underestimate the power, depth, and beauty of our own minds.

Julian Jaynes, in his book The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind suggested that the human brain, 3 to 4000 years ago had a more substantial barrier between the left and right hemisphere. His theory explained why, for example, the 'gods' in Homer gave characters commands.

Jaynes wrote that ancient humans before roughly 1000BC were not reflectively meta-conscious and operated by means of automatic, nonconscious habit-schemas. Instead of having meta-consciousness, these humans were constituted by what Jaynes calls the "bicameral mind". For bicameral humans, when habit did not suffice to handle novel stimuli and stress rose at the moment of decision, neural activity in the "dominant" (left) hemisphere was modulated by auditory verbal hallucinations originating in the so-called "silent" (right) hemisphere (particularly the right temporal cortex), which were heard as the voice of a chieftain or god and immediately obeyed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_Jaynes




_______________________
*I've written the details of this experience several times on this forum

[keithprosser3]

the power, depth, and beauty of our own minds.

I am certainly going to look up Jaynes book. But in the meantime I can recommend also "The man who thought his wife was a hat" by Oliver Sacks to anyone interested in the human mind. The link is a free pdf download.

[Danmark]

the power, depth, and beauty of our own minds.

I am certainly going to look up Jaynes book. But in the meantime I can recommend also "The man who thought his wife was a hat" by Oliver Sacks to anyone interested in the human mind. The link is a free pdf download.

Good choice! The title is actually The Man who Mistook his Wife for A Hat. Sacks is also the author of Awakenings, which was made into a movie staring Robert De Niro and Robin Williams. The more we learn about the human mind, the more fantastic it seems. Among the things we have learned is that the mind is clearly the product of material, non thinking stuff. When a region of the physical brain is injured we can frequently predict precisely what problems will result in the mind. The 'soul' was a term coined when we did not understand the physical basis for 'mind'.

[Sir Hamilton]

Why does it take an extra step to come up with the idea of a god when this God has revealed Himself to some?....like me. I like to go with God has always existed. ....

That is my point, that you accept that 'God has always existed' but deny that possibility that the universe has always existed. It takes a 'extra step' because we start with the universe, then add the fantastic, the supernatural, the personality: 'God.'
You claim God has 'revealed himself to you. Please explain how 'he' has done so.
Did you see him, the way you see people in your every day life? Did you hear him the way you hear the grocery clerk ask, 'Is there anything else I can help you with?'

I ask this, because your entire argument rests upon this one claim, that God has revealed Himself to you. Since this is an extraordinary claim, a claim that goes beyond our normal senses, or at least beyond what people normally report, it is fair to ask the circumstances and detail about this revelation you claim.

That is a very good question. For me there was no vision or dream...no miraculous event that I can point to that God sent to me personally. He has always been there. That still small voice has always been there as long as I can remember. I guess that is kind of boring but that is the way it is with me...unlike you. You had Jesus appear to you and talk to you and tell you he was not divine. Now having said that which one do you believe? Has the universe just always been or did it have an origin and if so who or what created the universe?

I can accept that my experience* arose from inside my own mind; that there was nothing supernatural about it. In fact, to me that seems the most likely explanation. I only mention it in the interest of candor and as a reference point for others who have claimed to have had similar experiences, like Paul and Joseph Smith.

Not everyone has such an experience, but everyone has a 'still small voice.' It's generally called a conscience. It is my contention The unconscious mind is so great, unfathomable and mysterious that it is mistaken for god. Most of us greatly underestimate the power, depth, and beauty of our own minds.

Julian Jaynes, in his book The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind suggested that the human brain, 3 to 4000 years ago had a more substantial barrier between the left and right hemisphere. His theory explained why, for example, the 'gods' in Homer gave characters commands.

Jaynes wrote that ancient humans before roughly 1000BC were not reflectively meta-conscious and operated by means of automatic, nonconscious habit-schemas. Instead of having meta-consciousness, these humans were constituted by what Jaynes calls the "bicameral mind". For bicameral humans, when habit did not suffice to handle novel stimuli and stress rose at the moment of decision, neural activity in the "dominant" (left) hemisphere was modulated by auditory verbal hallucinations originating in the so-called "silent" (right) hemisphere (particularly the right temporal cortex), which were heard as the voice of a chieftain or god and immediately obeyed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_Jaynes




_______________________
*I've written the details of this experience several times on this forum

It probably was from your own mind but how can you prove it? Maybe you were influenced by a "supernatural" being? Actually i dislike "supernatural". There is nothing "supernatural". All of existence is natural. Just because we can't understand it with our 5 senses and our 3 dimensions doesn't make it "supernatural"....it just means we are not able to comprehend it with our finite imperfect minds. Your comment on the unconscious mind and it's power and beauty is very interesting and eloquently stated...i don't think that i can accept it as God though.

[Danmark]

It probably was from your own mind but how can you prove it? Maybe you were influenced by a "supernatural" being? Actually i dislike "supernatural". There is nothing "supernatural". All of existence is natural. Just because we can't understand it with our 5 senses and our 3 dimensions doesn't make it "supernatural"....it just means we are not able to comprehend it with our finite imperfect minds. Your comment on the unconscious mind and it's power and beauty is very interesting and eloquently stated...i don't think that i can accept it as God though.

Thank you Sir. I may have misunderstood your reply, but I do not contend the unconscious mind is God. Far from it. I simply think that our unconscious is so powerful and mysterious, many mistake it for God.
Another way of saying it is that our minds do things, particularly our unconscious minds, that are so astounding we jump to the false conclusion that a god is causing the phenomena when it is really our own minds. For most people this stuff comes from the right side of our brains. As an example of this, I ask people to reflect on their dreams. Haven't you had dreams that were so elaborate and detailed and filled with stuff you didn't recognize, couldn't find a real world source for, that it seems like some incredible genius is hidden in there somewhere? This hidden self, the unconscious paints these lavish and beautiful and complicated pictures and scenarios that I frequently wake and am in awe of my own dreams.
I have to laugh sometimes because it seems to me that my conscious self is a complete and unimaginative dullard by comparison. Where is this stuff coming from and why can't I tap into it when I'm awake? I don't think it is God, but compared to the conscious self I am aware of, it is godlike.

I hope that makes sense to someone. I have a hard time believing that my experience is unique.

[iamtaka]

No, seriously folks! None of this represents make believe in any way! It's all twue and could hardly be more obvious!

Now that the strawman has been dismantled all that remains is mockery and ridicule. Thanks for the discussion.

[Danmark]

No, seriously folks! None of this represents make believe in any way! It's all twue and could hardly be more obvious!

Now that the strawman has been dismantled all that remains is mockery and ridicule. Thanks for the discussion.

How does that remark advance the debate?
What 'strawman?' How has it been 'dismantled?' What 'mockery and ridicule?'
In other words, 'What ARE you talking about?