Sodom, Greece, Rome and homosexuality.

[AlAyeti]

Does allowing for diversity include parents having no voice in what their children are forced to be taught and have to accept?

Do Christians and the many other cultures and belief systems opposed to homosexuality have the right to have their culture and religious views respected in society when it comes to decent and natural sexual behavior in the education system and in public?

Are homosexuals demanding accesss to children under the label of diversity and anti-hate legislation?

This seems the number one issue between average and normal "family" people and the homosexual agenda.

Can there be laws passed that keeps homosexuality from becoming forced on children and families that oppose it, without the homosexual community and homosexual action organizations crying discrimination?

Is there such a thing anymore as heterosexual rights?

[Scrotum]

We are back to basics. "My" point is, that it is not bigotry or hateful to see homosexuality as not normal and indeed unnatural and a choice behavior.

You mean, like your choice behaviour to type on a keyboard which is unnatural and not normal? I already explained it to you John, this is by your own definition unnatural. So why dont you use this as a simile instead? Perhaps then you realize how tragic the entire opinion becomes.

And yes, you show hatred and bigotry against homosexuality, dont deny this clear fact which more or less everyone on the forum would agree to. As well as your sick behaviour of typing on a keyboard. Sicko.

[1John2_26]

It's funny: The things in the Bible, never scared me as much as 1John does (by what He often implies).

I'm sure the Romans said that of Paul's writings. They attacked him as well. Christ Jesus re-defined marriage as ONLY a man and a woman. Obviously a homphobe to the Gay Agenda and the Human Rights Campaign. Ask a gay or lesbian in Massachusetts.

Dogmatism is a real thing, and it seems that 1John is as dogmatic as anyone I've encountered in this life.

Just a note of facts here: You have only encountered me in defending Christians in their rights to disapprove of homosexual acts. Nothing more than New Testament apologetics Melikio. Your drama does not support what you are trying to do "to me."

I listen to 1John, and I feel hated and rejected; NOTHING like the warmth and goodness I've felt/sensed the many times I've gotten on my knees and prayed to God.

Believe it or not, I consider God greater than my posts. You would do well to never stop praying. To God. If you want to practice Christian beliefs, you'll find them defined in the New Testament.

The big difference between what 1John says and reality itself, is that reality isn't nearly as hopeless as the message 1John cosistently delivers.

Reality is salvation in Christ Jesus. Reality doe not exist in a lifestyle that will fade away with age and time. Your ad hominem attack on "me" is all you have isn't it Melikio? I have never not onced wished you well in the Lord.

Quote:
We are back to basics. "My" point is, that it is not bigotry or hateful to see homosexuality as not normal and indeed unnatural and a choice behavior.

You mean, like your choice behaviour to type on a keyboard which is unnatural and not normal? I already explained it to you John, this is by your own definition unnatural. So why dont you use this as a simile instead? Perhaps then you realize how tragic the entire opinion becomes.

It would be tragic if I tried sex acts with my computer keyboard. It was not designed for that. Reality does not serve your analogy well Scrotum.

And yes, you show hatred and bigotry against homosexuality, dont deny this clear fact which more or less everyone on the forum would agree to.

Yes the wide array of liberal adherents seem quite united wehn all is said and done. I have noticed that "freethinkers" are only allowed to think one way. Only.

As well as your sick behaviour of typing on a keyboard. Sicko.

Only if I click on websites that promote sick behaviors. Otherwise i am doing "with the keyboard" what it was designed I do.

Unbelieveable you cannot understand "design" but viewing the European education system you have touted, it comes as no surprise "to me."

[melikio]

Reality is salvation in Christ Jesus. Reality doe not exist in a lifestyle that will fade away with age and time. Your ad hominem attack on "me" is all you have isn't it Melikio? I have never not onced wished you well in the Lord.

Whatever 1John; you simply don't have much moral credibility with me; there are few people that I likely trust less. I honestly sense that you are a danger to homosexual people, but the best I can hope for is to never have to deal with you and your mind outside of this forum. I have always prayed for protection from the kind of thing/s you bring to the table; God has been merciful.

Maybe you can win the world over to Jesus, but I'll likely continue to view your words as being tentatively trustworthy and enigmatic.

Your well-wishes (for your information) aren't congruent with the overall atmosphere of hatefulness which encapsulate the customized message you have so often expressed. And you really need to think about these things I say, no matter what you think/believe my motivation is for saying them. I cannot be the only person affected in the same way as I have been. It's worth being objective about.

Do NOT hold out your hand as a friend, when you aren't... that is hypocritical at worst, delusional at best. (I'm not falling for it.)

-Mel-

[1John2_26]

Always emotionalism Melikio? Cannot you at least oppose me on analytical grounds? Support your "Christian" views with New Testament support?

"Love" is not allowing a child to play in the middle of a highway because you think the child may get "emotionally" hurt when yelled at to get out of harms way. In the secular world, the child would be yanked out of the road if he didn't listen to the "voices of reason" (in uniforms) trying to save his life. AND, his parent (note singular, usually mother) would get arrested for child abuse-neglect.

Quote:
Reality is salvation in Christ Jesus. Reality doe not exist in a lifestyle that will fade away with age and time. Your ad hominem attack on "me" is all you have isn't it Melikio? I have never not onced wished you well in the Lord.

Whatever 1John; you simply don't have much moral credibility with me; there are few people that I likely trust less.

Yet, "I" have never lied to "you" even once. Odd the people you pick as your support group don't you think?

I honestly sense that you are a danger to homosexual people, but the best I can hope for is to never have to deal with you and your mind outside of this forum.

You may actually believe that; altough "I" have given "you" no reason to believe anything but the Gospel of Christ, un-washed by politics and the New Testament un-perverted by those with an agenda and ulterior motives.

I have always prayed for protection from the kind of thing/s you bring to the table; God has been merciful.

Pray without ceasing.

Ummmm, but, how do you do that with atheist/secularist, anti-Christian "friends?"

Maybe you can win the world over to Jesus, but I'll likely continue to view your words as being tentatively trustworthy and enigmatic.

"Tentatively?" "Enigmatic?" Two things (actually three): I have never admonished "you" or anyone else to "just trust" anything I offer for rebuttal or consideration without testing every point I present. I have never presented anything tentatively or enigmatically. I am hardly hated by the garden-variety progressives here at debatingchristianity.com (socialists/leftists, secularists/atheists, infideldotorgers), for being ambiguous.

Your well-wishes (for your information) aren't congruent with the overall atmosphere of hatefulness which encapsulate the customized message you have so often expressed.

It seems the 2006 mind has been conditioned to react to any dissent of the liberal/progressive paradigm with the knee-jerk reaction to stigmatize the dissenter with pat "hater/bigot" response. It does seem that secular brain-washing has been carried out very effective and: "may I add as a Christian," satanically. NOW, morality is never challenging chaos and perversion, and living and proclaiming a normal and decent life is seen as a hate crime and a civil rights violation of others. It is fascinating to see "the powers and principalities" taking their places of authority over society and the majority populace. How many people are not debauched in one way or another? Now we have oral sex parties as a social meeting in our public schools. We have "Proms" that can no longer be "the way they have always been" because maybe one or two gays or lesbians "may be insulted."

So the entire moral world has been turned upside down for perversion and deviant sexual behavior to take a place alongside a normal and moral life. And sexual acts have replaced teenage activities in rampant displays. Where once were kids kissing under the bleachers, we have sodomy as a way to be popular.

Where is your "Christian opposition to this Melikio?"

"We" are the ONLY voice of dissent left in this western world for debauchery to be a class taken in public schools.

And you really need to think about why I say these things, no matter what you think my motivation is for saying them.

Your "motivation?" Do you think that your behaviors that you choose to undertake are any different than mine? There is only one Gospel delivered to the saints. You can continue to paint me as an a$#&*% all you want to, but the proof of my presentations is not from my inventions, nor my agenda.

I cannot be the only person affected in the same way.

Obviously you have the support of every anti-Christian on this site. You do not smell the coffee brewing?

Do NOT hold out your hand as a friend, when you aren't... that is hypocritical at worse, delusional at best.

Then a dust covered sandal it will be.

I have never doubted that you smack away my hand. You have been quite "personally" vitriolic in "replying" to my posts. Christ Jesus said quite clearly how, who and what, it would affect in following "Him."

Love the sinner, hate the sin. I haven't found that in the Bible. Love those the spitefully accuse you. I have. Love does not sell licentiousness and debauchery and convince others to embrace a lifestyle that cannot be supported by the children of God. Force can be implemented on beauitiful people to have them submit to evil authorities, but that does not mean that Christians should support those evil authorities. Love does not mean encouraging evil. Blessing those that commit abominations is not in telling them to practice them:

Love for Enemies
27"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31Do to others as you would have them do to you.
32"If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. 33And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that. 34And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. 35But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

Judging Others
37"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."
39He also told them this parable: "Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit? 40A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher.

41"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 42How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

Melikio:

The Gay Agenda applies martyrdom applications to its message. Please show me how that that is possible?

"They" have an immense palnk in "their" own eye do "they" not. How can they see clearly the message of purity and morality proclaimed in the Gospel and the New Testament?

Or, for that matter in a world where homosexuality is - no matter what politics is employed, the aberration of sexual normalcy - how can the Gay Agenda claim that "it" is not the intolerant viewpoint?

You are supporting relativism be unleashed on the modern world. How is this rational or Biblical?

"Do what thou wilt." Is neither Biblical nor "sensible." Though, it is a statement supported by occultists. Al Crowley despised Christianity and that theme runs the gamut in those that proclaim hedonism and licentiousness go unabated and unrestricted in any way.

Of course the hating of Christian morality is nothing new. It seems to run the themes of the licentious.

http://tim.maroney.org/CrowleyIntro/Christianity.html

http://www.dowhatthouwilt.com/

Test all things and hold on fast to that which is truth.

That is your choice.

It is a choice.

[Scrotum]

(1)"Love" is not allowing a child to play in the middle of a highway because you think the child may get "emotionally" hurt when yelled at to get out of harms way. In the secular world, the child would be yanked out of the road if he didn't listen to the "voices of reason" ((2)in uniforms) trying to save his life. (3)AND, his parent (note singular, usually mother) would get arrested for child abuse-neglect.

1. You have the right to your opinion.

2. Why uniforms? There going to a Christian school?

3. Why no father? You dont want children to have fathers?

[Scrotum]

Or, for that matter in a world where homosexuality is - no matter what politics is employed, the aberration of sexual normalcy - how can the Gay Agenda claim that "it" is not the intolerant viewpoint?

Indeed, i presume you referring to fellatio/cunnilingus as well as anal intercourse. Oral is conducted by the majority of the worlds population (usually involved in something called foreplay), and anal is getting popular, and people are atleast trying it out.

NOTE: When i say "people", i mean Heterosexuals. Im sorry John, but if you want to condem thomosexuals for conducting oral and anal sexual activities, you have to condem the majority of the worlds population. Perhaps you have had fellatio? Or your parents, i promise ou they have had. Your father should have got it atleast once in his life. So do you condem them? Have you asked them ?

[melikio]

Always emotionalism Melikio?

Yep. You are dealing with *&%*$ ing human beings (including me); get used to it.

Cannot you at least oppose me on analytical grounds?

Your views border on INSANITY; that is if you truly believe that others MUST regard or adhere to them.

Support your "Christian" views with New Testament support?

I've done that; you have virtually ignored it indeed. Ok.

"Love" is not allowing a child to play in the middle of a highway because you think the child may get "emotionally" hurt when yelled at to get out of harms way.

1John, YOU are not in a position (as God is) to forcibly affect the lives of adult human beings (not in a moral/social/physical sense). And if there were some direct physical endangerment involved (ie. criminal act, or issue of consent), then I would be right with you; but there isn't. I could be reading this wrongly, but I think you are behaving as a jerk would, it's just that you package it in "religion" or your own brand of "Christianity".

I don't trust you; remember that, and that is a problem you cannot really control from where you are. You can call it "emotionalism" or whatever you wish, but it's one of those "facts" of life (the direct proof of which is right here on this page) so deal with it.

In the secular world, the child would be yanked out of the road if he didn't listen to the "voices of reason" (in uniforms) trying to save his life. AND, his parent (note singular, usually mother) would get arrested for child abuse-neglect.

You aren't my "parent" or dedicated "overseer"; you are hardly a "brother" to me; who is to say that you have some right or calling "YANK" anyone in this case? (Get real, please.)

Quote:
Reality is salvation in Christ Jesus. Reality doe not exist in a lifestyle that will fade away with age and time.

That is a statement made in faith; you shouldn't PUSH it, no matter how much YOU believe in it. Secondly, if you must believe that this is about some "lifestyle", that's too bad; your view is obviously distorted from the start.

Your ad hominem attack on "me" is all you have isn't it Melikio? I have never not onced wished you well in the Lord.

Sorry if I do not (by any means) trust you. The face value of your message, does not exude the love I expect of one who "claims" to come from or be of "God". So, take what you have and do what you will; just don't think that pulling/swaying others to that will be inevitable as it concerns you.

Whatever 1John; you simply don't have much moral credibility with me; there are few people that I likely trust less.

Still "true"; believe it.

Yet, "I" have never lied to "you" even once. Odd the people you pick as your support group don't you think?

In my eyes (as a human being), you are a cruel jerk and relentless in you negativity toward anyone or anything you believe is "homosexual". If that is your truth, then perhaps it is not as much about me thinking that you "lied", as much as it is your obligation to be far better at human relations than you obviously are. You cannot FORCE even what you view as "good" upon others; but nearly all of the meaning in your words/message, leans THAT way. In my heart and mind, you stand DISTINCTLY APART from Jesus Christ and the message related to His life; let God handle that, if you cannot.

Quote:
I honestly sense that you are a danger to homosexual people, but the best I can hope for is to never have to deal with you and your mind outside of this forum.

Still "true".

You may actually believe that; altough "I" have given "you" no reason to believe anything but the Gospel of Christ, un-washed by politics and the New Testament un-perverted by those with an agenda and ulterior motives.

You simply come-off as "grief" and "negativity" to me. I don't LIKE seeing people that way, but I have met and known them; dealt with them my entire life. Don't even tell me what to believe 1John; I DO NOT TRUST YOU. I may examine your points in due time (hopefully never again), but don't demand that I "interpret" anything in the manner you have; that's simply ARROGANCE.

Quote:
I have always prayed for protection from the kind of thing/s you bring to the table; God has been merciful.

Still "true".

Pray without ceasing.

My LIFE is a prayer; I don't care if you take my word for that, or not.

Ummmm, but, how do you do that with atheist/secularist, anti-Christian "friends?"

Being "loving", as opposed to acting as a "jerk" tends to, accomplishes things that you, I or no one else needs to explain. (It can't be put into a can and sold.)

Quote:
Maybe you can win the world over to Jesus, but I'll likely continue to view your words as being tentatively trustworthy and enigmatic.

Still "true".

"Tentatively?"

See definition here: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=tentatively

"Enigmatic?"

See definition here: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=enigmatic

Two things (actually three): I have never admonished "you" or anyone else to "just trust" anything I offer for rebuttal or consideration without testing every point I present.

In your mind that may be so; still you come off to me as being "untrustworthy"; you can't FIX that by your own power. Leave it to your God, and this person who has told you so.

I have never presented anything tentatively or enigmatically.

In taht puzzle-like thinking of yours, I can see how you might "believe" that is the case.

I am hardly hated by the garden-variety progressives here at debatingchristianity.com (socialists/leftists, secularists/atheists, infideldotorgers), for being ambiguous.

I think it is that you underestimate what other human beings are made of; and I think you believe you are above others on the "worth" scale. That's my take on YOUR view of others.

Quote:
Your well-wishes (for your information) aren't congruent with the overall atmosphere of hatefulness which encapsulate the customized message you have so often expressed.

Still "true".

It seems the 2006 mind has been conditioned to react to any dissent of the liberal/progressive paradigm with the knee-jerk reaction to stigmatize the dissenter with pat "hater/bigot" response.

Care to discuss (objectively) the paradigms and/or memes which steer your fingers across that keyboard of yours?

It does seem that secular brain-washing has been carried out very effective and: "may I add as a Christian," satanically. NOW, morality is never challenging chaos and perversion, and living and proclaiming a normal and decent life is seen as a hate crime and a civil rights violation of others.

Not every believer in God or religion, turns out to be a controlling "jerk", but so many do. Too bad for mankind.

It is fascinating to see "the powers and principalities" taking their places of authority over society and the majority populace.

It's also fascinating and interesting to see the anatomy of delusional-thinking, attempt to overtake good common sense and reason. Be fascinated, but pray "always".

How many people are not debauched in one way or another? Now we have oral sex parties as a social meeting in our public schools. We have "Proms" that can no longer be "the way they have always been" because maybe one or two gays or lesbians "may be insulted."

There are problems, but you aren't THE one to solve them all; you really should turn more of the solutions toward yourself.

So the entire moral world has been turned upside down for perversion and deviant sexual behavior to take a place alongside a normal and moral life.

Nothing new going on in this world; you know that. People are imperfect, and the bad, stupid or criminal things they do have to be dealt with as they occur. When the END comes, then that will be what it is. Spread LOVE, make the world better; don't think that you can control what is going on (because you really can't).

And sexual acts have replaced teenage activities in rampant displays. Where once were kids kissing under the bleachers, we have sodomy as a way to be popular.

What are you going to DO about that, 1John? I haven't seen anyone here promote the STUPID things which people do (young or old). You have to do what you can, and leave the rest to your God; otherwise you'll step above/beyond you authority or span of real control; you'll just make yourself into a complete NUT-CASE. (Think about it.)

Where is your "Christian opposition to this Melikio?"

It's appropriately placed into my life (something you assume too much about, and not just in my case).

"We" are the ONLY voice of dissent left in this western world for debauchery to be a class taken in public schools.

YOU are too "controlling" in my view.

Quote:
And you really need to think about why I say these things, no matter what you think my motivation is for saying them.

Still good advice (imho).

Your "motivation?"

See definition here: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=motivation

Do you think that your behaviors that you choose to undertake are any different than mine?

I don't know what yo do; for now you are merely words on my screen. You can claim anything you want to claim, and not be able to prove otherwise.

There is only one Gospel delivered to the saints.

But there are MANY interpretations of that same "Gospel". The only think I'll take from you as "Gospel" are your actions as I see you perform them (even then, I may question every word and move).

You can continue to paint me as an a$#&*% all you want to, but the proof of my presentations is not from my inventions, nor my agenda.

Not painting anything; just being a human being, interacting with you. Get over it, please.

Quote:
I cannot be the only person affected in the same way.

Still "true". (Be more objective about the effects you are poised to have upon others, 1John; it matters.

Obviously you have the support of every anti-Christian on this site. You do not smell the coffee brewing?

That is YOUR label for almost anyone that doesn't agree with YOU; so what?

Quote:
Do NOT hold out your hand as a friend, when you aren't... that is hypocritical at worse, delusional at best.

Still, it's worth noting (basically true); thinkj about it. People who are poised to be LORDS over others, are NOT primarily functioning as "friends".

Then a dust covered sandal it will be.

Learn to dust that shoe off and pray more often, instead of pushing your ideas of faith and morality upon others (just like the Bible instructs).

I have never doubted that you smack away my hand.

Ok, you are astute enough, but why are you having such a problem dusting off you sandals and moving on in your faith? Do you "doubt" that you aren't going to change/repair homosexuals or enforce God's will by your own power? I think you overstep your bounds, imho.

You have been quite "personally" vitriolic in "replying" to my posts.

No I haven't; maybe the truth hurts more than you want it to. It can sting in all directions; you aren't perfect either.

Christ Jesus said quite clearly how, who and what, it would affect in following "Him."

Do you really believe He was talking about JUST YOU? Speak for yourself, and take it to God in private; I don't want to hear about how "faithful" and "obedient" you believe you are before The Lord. Learn to really LOVE people, and move along in your "faith"; don't make a point of thinking you can fix the whole darned world yourself; that is DELUSIONAL.

Love the sinner, hate the sin.

The "LABEL" (cliche') which too often means, "Hypocrite Inside".

I haven't found that in the Bible.

There are a MULTITUDE of ideas and attitudes which many believe originate from the BIble, which simply aren't in there. (There is NOTHING new or unusual about that.)

Love those the spitefully accuse you. I have.

Still, I do not think you know what love really is. I have no proof that you do what you say.

Love does not sell licentiousness and debauchery and convince others to embrace a lifestyle that cannot be supported by the children of God.

Nor does it prop itself up to act as "God", when such "acts" are merely fashioned by human beings to gain favor or credibility.

Force can be implemented on beauitiful people to have them submit to evil authorities, but that does not mean that Christians should support those evil authorities.

Some believers see YOU and others with your view, as being the "evil" authority. You talk as you were standing beside God, when He was writing The Law. I know for a fact (since you are human), that you deserve no less than death (were it not for grace). When you share what you think is true, you need to find a way to communicate that you know that, more readily than you typically do.

What?! Are you REALLY that much BETTER than every other sinner, 1John?

Love does not mean encouraging evil.

Love does not FORCE what is "good" either. (Get used to God controlling things, not you and your interpretation of His Word.)

Blessing those that commit abominations is not in telling them to practice them:

1John, how many times a day would someone have to tell you to SHUT UP, to keep you under control (as you seem to want control over others)? That people do NOT tell you to shut the heck up here, doesn't necessarily mean that they do not think it wouldn't be a good thing. You cannot PUSH your faith like a bulldozer, over everything you believe is "sin"l; that isn't love and the Bible makes that as clear as anything else.

Quote:
Love for Enemies
27"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also.

OK, here we go again! You quote Scripture that most of us have studied before we posted here; many of us have practiced this all of our lives. Yet, you somehow think that POSTING it here, somehow validates or mitigates the message you've offended many with. What are you thinking in doing that? It doesn't make up for the perceived or actual meaning of what you say.

If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31Do to others as you would have them do to you.

I seriously doubt that most Christians want to treated in the way that most homosexual people ARE treated by (many) "Christians".

32"If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. 33And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that.

It makes sense to me; still, my biggest concern is with those (cruel people) who don't really know what love is, then go about preaching it as if they "invented" it. Most Christians are NOTHING like Jesus, and that is so very easy to detect.

34And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. 35But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

Good words, indeed.

Judging Others
37"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

Who else doesn't know this? Also good words, not necessarily followed by all who might "post" them.

39He also told them this parable: "Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit? 40A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher.

41"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 42How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

Still, many Christians are effectively difficult and place unreasonable demands upon unbelievers and sinners (as if they don't know what it is to be "faulted" or "human". These WORDS are so easy to recite or post. I knew what a Christian was before I knew what a homosexual was. Some people are FAKERS; almost like magicians with their "religion", giving either false or unverifiable testimony for their own benefit. How in the world do I know that isn't YOU?

You've given me more reasons to DOUBT your character and to DISCOUNT the things you've posted than I can count. I see you don't GET IT!! I'll say it another way:

Until you can PROVE that you are ALL THAT (before God), then come down to where the rest of the sinners are and have a real conversation. And no, that doesn't mean you have to agree when someone says something you reject; you just have to work harder at NOT playing "God" when you hear something you either don't like, don't agree with or find offensive.

Melikio:
The Gay Agenda applies martyrdom applications to its message. Please show me how that that is possible?

Your view of this is ALL so EXTREME! I've never talked to anyone gay/straight who has implied that as a purpose.

"They" have an immense palnk in "their" own eye do "they" not. How can they see clearly the message of purity and morality proclaimed in the Gospel and the New Testament?

If we (collectively) have planks obscurring the truth; then it is up to the individual to correct the problem. You seem to be taking the "Bible" (as a hammer) (along with much ATTITUDE) and trying to WHACK the protruding planks into people's brains. Nowhere in that book, does it tell people to PUT UP with that kind of CRAP.

Or, for that matter in a world where homosexuality is - no matter what politics is employed, the aberration of sexual normalcy - how can the Gay Agenda claim that "it" is not the intolerant viewpoint?

Simple. Those who are "extremist-fundamentalists" or just plain "homophobic", do not act out of love toward homosexuals.

Hatred is what is TRANSMITTED (onto others), then denied, then justified (internally) by the same elements which caused the EXTREMISM and HOMOPHOBIA in the first place.

You are supporting relativism be unleashed on the modern world. How is this rational or Biblical?

Is the Bible truly "rational"? I don't know about YOU, but many things in there take more than a "little" faith to actually believe. If by "relativism" you implying that I should take more into account than some bigoted "biblical" view pushed down at mankind for generations, then YEP...I'm a RELATIVIST (for sure); deal with it.

"Do what thou wilt." Is neither Biblical nor "sensible."

So, why do you ignore things you shouldn't? Whatever it is 1John, it's 2-Way... not YOUR-way.

Though, it is a statement supported by occultists.

I've heard many more occultists make far better sense of "darkness", than you allegedly make of so-called "truth". I don't say that lightly, because I'm not into the occult; but it is the reality of things as I've experienced things.

Al Crowley despised Christianity and that theme runs the gamut in those that proclaim hedonism and licentiousness go unabated and unrestricted in any way.

You show that you enjoy labeling people often; I think it distorts or obscures the "truth" you would know. I don't care what "Crowley" thought of Christianity, really. But I can tell you why you offer me a lot of reasons to reject the bulk of what you claim is "right" or "true". (Did I say, that I don't TRUST you?)

Of course the hating of Christian morality is nothing new. It seems to run the themes of the licentious.

Christian morality? What do you truly know of it, in your own life? Don't try to prove it here; because you can't.

Test all things which 1John offers, and hold fast to that which is actual truth. (I suspect the load might very "light".)

-Mel-

[1John2_26]

It's late but this is worth it.

First off , since I watched an old episode of Law and Order tonite (another Christian-bash piece), I found it odd and very appropriate. In the show: If you disapprove of homosexuality you are either a closeted homosexual or a hateful violent bigot. You can't just be a normal natural moral person, you have to either except homosexuality or applaud its spread. No other position is offered.

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Always emotionalism Melikio?

Yep. You are dealing with *&%*$ ing human beings (including me); get used to it.

In a debate, it usually is frowned upon to whine and cry and scream.

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Cannot you at least oppose me on analytical grounds?

Your views border on INSANITY; that is if you truly believe that others MUST regard or adhere to them.

Ah yes, I have noticed this "new theme." If you oppose or disapprove of homosexuality and its pervasive spread, you are suffering from a mental disorder called "homophobia." A new mental illness is created as homosexuality is sued out of psychiatry. Interesting.

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Support your "Christian" views with New Testament support?

I've done that; you have virtually ignored it indeed. Ok.

You have never showed one support for promoting homosexuality from the New Testament.

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"Love" is not allowing a child to play in the middle of a highway because you think the child may get "emotionally" hurt when yelled at to get out of harms way.

1John, YOU are not in a position (as God is) to forcibly affect the lives of adult human beings (not in a moral/social/physical sense). And if there were some direct physical endangerment involved (ie. criminal act, or issue of consent), then I would be right with you; but there isn't.

BS. No one can oppose homosexuality be proclaimed in public schools as far down as the grades go. It is now a hate crime to want your children to grow up and get married "the old fashion way."

I could be reading this wrongly, but I think you are behaving as a jerk would, it's just that you package it in "religion" or your own brand of "Christianity".

I defend Christians to let them know that they are not actually the bad guys. Christians are vilified for wanting a moral world where purity is role-modeled to children. Not how to use a condom to prevent STD;s. Better role models would be showcasing something different that unrestricted (except for the latex) hedonism.

I don't trust you; remember that, and that is a problem you cannot really control from where you are. You can call it "emotionalism" or whatever you wish, but it's one of those "facts" of life (the direct proof of which is right here on this page) so deal with it.

"You" are not in the group of people that I protect. You are free to pursue your choices anywhere you wish. When you support the Gay Agenda vilifying Christians, know for sure that I am not in that camp.

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In the secular world, the child would be yanked out of the road if he didn't listen to the "voices of reason" (in uniforms) trying to save his life. AND, his parent (note singular, usually mother) would get arrested for child abuse-neglect.

You aren't my "parent" or dedicated "overseer"; you are hardly a "brother" to me; who is to say that you have some right or calling "YANK" anyone in this case? (Get real, please.)

I have the support of many people that feel comforted in my words and actions that they are not homophobes, bigots and hate crimes perpetrators for not wanting homosexuality to be promoted.

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Reality is salvation in Christ Jesus. Reality doe not exist in a lifestyle that will fade away with age and time.

That is a statement made in faith; you shouldn't PUSH it, no matter how much YOU believe in it. Secondly, if you must believe that this is about some "lifestyle", that's too bad; your view is obviously distorted from the start.

"Actions speak louder than words." Though, we are judged by both.

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Your ad hominem attack on "me" is all you have isn't it Melikio? I have never not onced wished you well in the Lord.

Sorry if I do not (by any means) trust you. The face value of your message, does not exude the love I expect of one who "claims" to come from or be of "God". So, take what you have and do what you will; just don't think that pulling/swaying others to that will be inevitable as it concerns you.

Believe me I am not trying to sway leftists . . . et al. A seared mind is just that. I am in their opposition.

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Whatever 1John; you simply don't have much moral credibility with me; there are few people that I likely trust less.

Still "true"; believe it.

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Yet, "I" have never lied to "you" even once. Odd the people you pick as your support group don't you think?

In my eyes (as a human being), you are a cruel jerk and relentless in you negativity toward anyone or anything you believe is "homosexual".

Why should presenting "what" same-gender sex "is" be so offensive? I thought the whole "out in the open" thing was part of the Gay Agenda?

If that is your truth, then perhaps it is not as much about me thinking that you "lied", as much as it is your obligation to be far better at human relations than you obviously are. You cannot FORCE even what you view as "good" upon others; but nearly all of the meaning in your words/message, leans THAT way.

I want my message to be unambiguos. If the liberal/progressives don't like, I never was deluded in thinking thay would. My debate position is for Christians to know they are not the bad guys. That means the liberals are.

In my heart and mind, you stand DISTINCTLY APART from Jesus Christ and the message related to His life; let God handle that, if you cannot.

OK. That is good Godly advice. So, I should just sit back as the Gay Agenda takes over every part of the education process and also, outlaws Christians? I vote pal. I still as of yet, have free speech rights. I urge people not to be part of the enemy of Christians.

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I honestly sense that you are a danger to homosexual people, but the best I can hope for is to never have to deal with you and your mind outside of this forum.

Still "true".

That is how the licentous permissive mind of the liberal views any dissent of leftist ideology. They are quite the absolutists.

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You may actually believe that; altough "I" have given "you" no reason to believe anything but the Gospel of Christ, un-washed by politics and the New Testament un-perverted by those with an agenda and ulterior motives.

You simply come-off as "grief" and "negativity" to me. I don't LIKE seeing people that way, but I have met and known them; dealt with them my entire life. Don't even tell me what to believe 1John; I DO NOT TRUST YOU.

I will be sleeping well in a few minutes. I will also sleep in late tomorrow morning. My "negativity" comes from being opposite to your position.

I may examine your points in due time (hopefully never again), but don't demand that I "interpret" anything in the manner you have; that's simply ARROGANCE.

OK. My arrogance is a great sin I'll admit (confess). Please forgive me if I think liberalism has entered worthlessness. Diatribe and anti-Christs dwell where once was lucid thout. The left is the enemy of Christians.

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I have always prayed for protection from the kind of thing/s you bring to the table; God has been merciful.

Still "true".

No comment.

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Pray without ceasing.

My LIFE is a prayer; I don't care if you take my word for that, or not.

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Ummmm, but, how do you do that with atheist/secularist, anti-Christian "friends?"

Being "loving", as opposed to acting as a "jerk" tends to, accomplishes things that you, I or no one else needs to explain. (It can't be put into a can and sold.)

It can be mislabeled and deadly when done. Love should never mean unrestrained licentiousness and permissiveness. That is now a dogma of liberal thought.

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Maybe you can win the world over to Jesus, but I'll likely continue to view your words as being tentatively trustworthy and enigmatic.

Still "true".

And always the only "perception" and perspective you have from where you hold your views.

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"Tentatively?"

See definition here: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=tentatively

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"Enigmatic?"

See definition here: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=enigmatic

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Two things (actually three): I have never admonished "you" or anyone else to "just trust" anything I offer for rebuttal or consideration without testing every point I present.

In your mind that may be so; still you come off to me as being "untrustworthy"; you can't FIX that by your own power. Leave it to your God, and this person who has told you so.

I come off as someone that does not trust liberals et al. The world is stained by relativism. Children are still dying from it.

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I have never presented anything tentatively or enigmatically.

In taht puzzle-like thinking of yours, I can see how you might "believe" that is the case.

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I am hardly hated by the garden-variety progressives here at debatingchristianity.com (socialists/leftists, secularists/atheists, infideldotorgers), for being ambiguous.

I think it is that you underestimate what other human beings are made of; and I think you believe you are above others on the "worth" scale. That's my take on YOUR view of others.

I am confident and that is hated by liberals. I view Christ as gain (and the most valuable) and those that oppose Christ as the bad guys. That will change some day but not today. I have to learn to "love my enemies" far more. But, that is still calling enemies enemies. I have great disdain for the garden-variety anti-Christian viewpoint. It is petty more so than not.

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Your well-wishes (for your information) aren't congruent with the overall atmosphere of hatefulness which encapsulate the customized message you have so often expressed.

Still "true".

Those who love the sin, and promte others to sin are not going to find my views warm and fuzzy. I do not care. I care for people that need to know that seeking a morally sound life is a good thing and not a hate crime.

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It seems the 2006 mind has been conditioned to react to any dissent of the liberal/progressive paradigm with the knee-jerk reaction to stigmatize the dissenter with pat "hater/bigot" response.

Care to discuss (objectively) the paradigms and/or memes which steer your fingers across that keyboard of yours?

I present my views in the acerbic style that the garden-variety progressive thinks they own. Why should I care if anyone is insulted by being opposed? None of these "freethinkers" seem to care about the vitriolic dribble they spout from their infidels.org research. I am not seeking their membership forms.

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It does seem that secular brain-washing has been carried out very effective and: "may I add as a Christian," satanically. NOW, morality is never challenging chaos and perversion, and living and proclaiming a normal and decent life is seen as a hate crime and a civil rights violation of others.

Not every believer in God or religion, turns out to be a controlling "jerk", but so many do. Too bad for mankind.

Yes, that lie about Christians has been told so often that freethinkers will not challenge the stupidity of it. They fear a bad grade from a socialist professor, or that they might not get laid on spring break.

Mel, Muslims really are killing people thousands of them worldwide (it's not a GOP ploy); while Christians feed the world's starving people. These infideldotorgers only goal is to dismantle Christians. Do you see the stupidity in their goals?

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It is fascinating to see "the powers and principalities" taking their places of authority over society and the majority populace.

It's also fascinating and interesting to see the anatomy of delusional-thinking, attempt to overtake good common sense and reason. Be fascinated, but pray "always".

I have watched good questions turn into "freethinker" idolatry.

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How many people are not debauched in one way or another? Now we have oral sex parties as a social meeting in our public schools. We have "Proms" that can no longer be "the way they have always been" because maybe one or two gays or lesbians "may be insulted."

There are problems, but you aren't THE one to solve them all; you really should turn more of the solutions toward yourself.

Good advice. . . . . . . . . . . . OK. Now how about you? Repent, find a good women in a good Christian Church, get married and have kids. That is the New Testament idea of family and marriage, and of course sex.

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So the entire moral world has been turned upside down for perversion and deviant sexual behavior to take a place alongside a normal and moral life.

Nothing new going on in this world; you know that.

Men marrying men elevated to normalcy IS very new.

People are imperfect, and the bad, stupid or criminal things they do have to be dealt with as they occur. When the END comes, then that will be what it is. Spread LOVE, make the world better; don't think that you can control what is going on (because you really can't).

That is somewhat creepy. I feel like I am tied up and awaiting something dreadful to happen to me and there's nothing I can do about it.

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And sexual acts have replaced teenage activities in rampant displays. Where once were kids kissing under the bleachers, we have sodomy as a way to be popular.

What are you going to DO about that, 1John? I haven't seen anyone here promote the STUPID things which people do (young or old).

Scrotum?

You have to do what you can, and leave the rest to your God; otherwise you'll step above/beyond you authority or span of real control; you'll just make yourself into a complete NUT-CASE. (Think about it.)

That is graet advice.

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Where is your "Christian opposition to this Melikio?"

It's appropriately placed into my life (something you assume too much about, and not just in my case).

Actions and words CAN BE judged.

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"We" are the ONLY voice of dissent left in this western world for debauchery to be a class taken in public schools.

YOU are too "controlling" in my view.

Why or, how, is disapproving that homosexuality be taught to every child on earth as something they should try, seen as controlling? Why not see the truth in the Gay Agenda as being purely controlling, as theirs is the only paradigm allowed?

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And you really need to think about why I say these things, no matter what you think my motivation is for saying them.

Still good advice (imho).

Questioning your motives is a good idea.

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Your "motivation?"

See definition here: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=motivation

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Do you think that your behaviors that you choose to undertake are any different than mine?

I don't know what yo do; for now you are merely words on my screen. You can claim anything you want to claim, and not be able to prove otherwise.

Then why do you get so huffy and puffy emotional about words on a screen? Dissent is not allowed huh?

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There is only one Gospel delivered to the saints.

But there are MANY interpretations of that same "Gospel". The only think I'll take from you as "Gospel" are your actions as I see you perform them (even then, I may question every word and move).

I do not alter the words of the New Testament.

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You can continue to paint me as an a$#&*% all you want to, but the proof of my presentations is not from my inventions, nor my agenda.

Not painting anything; just being a human being, interacting with you. Get over it, please.

I will never allow this licensing of licentiousness to be implemented on society without dissenting from those that proclaim debauchery is something that children should do. Children need an alternate voice than that of the hedonists.

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I cannot be the only person affected in the same way.

Still "true". (Be more objective about the effects you are poised to have upon others, 1John; it matters.

I want pompous secularists to know that they are not fooling anyone. They peddle pitiless selfishness in collegiate wording. They always have a fresh batch of victims to replace those that move on to regrets to scared to fight back.

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Obviously you have the support of every anti-Christian on this site. You do not smell the coffee brewing?

That is YOUR label for almost anyone that doesn't agree with YOU; so what?

This website is almost completely anti-Christians that pretend they are some kind of philospher. Who do you think you are kidding Melikio?

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Do NOT hold out your hand as a friend, when you aren't... that is hypocritical at worse, delusional at best.

Still, it's worth noting (basically true); thinkj about it. People who are poised to be LORDS over others, are NOT primarily functioning as "friends".

Pederasty and pedophiles, whoremongers and rapists come to mind here. History has many sexual miscraents as leaders over the masses that somehow always rise to power.

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Then a dust covered sandal it will be.

Learn to dust that shoe off and pray more often, instead of pushing your ideas of faith and morality upon others (just like the Bible instructs).

Geez, I thought this was "Debating Christianity dot com?" Forgive me for NOT joining in the lock step of Christian bashing. I see the typical knee-jerk reactions of the common leftist so often I forget sometimes the oneness of thought that permeates this site.

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I have never doubted that you smack away my hand.

Ok, you are astute enough, but why are you having such a problem dusting off you sandals and moving on in your faith?

I have never deviated from my faith in any thread.

Do you "doubt" that you aren't going to change/repair homosexuals or enforce God's will by your own power? I think you overstep your bounds, imho.

Paul's use of the term "reprobate" does not escape my rationality. I am not here thinking "I" am going to change the unchangables. That is not my mission or goals here.

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You have been quite "personally" vitriolic in "replying" to my posts.

No I haven't; maybe the truth hurts more than you want it to. It can sting in all directions; you aren't perfect either.

Yes, would have sufficed. We both enter the acidic and that is sometimes fair. I have never been hurt by one thing posted. I just marvel in the minds in opposition to Christ Jesus and morality. It is everything I have come to expect of progressives.

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Christ Jesus said quite clearly how, who and what, it would affect in following "Him."

Do you really believe He was talking about JUST YOU? Speak for yourself, and take it to God in private; I don't want to hear about how "faithful" and "obedient" you believe you are before The Lord.

Is that what you are hearing? Gimme a break.

Learn to really LOVE people, and move along in your "faith"; don't make a point of thinking you can fix the whole darned world yourself; that is DELUSIONAL.

This is just a tiny little website on the world wide web. Though I have been humbled by some emails I've received.

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Love the sinner, hate the sin.

The "LABEL" (cliche') which too often means, "Hypocrite Inside".

Because sinning isn't supported? Sounds like Soulforce talking.

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I haven't found that in the Bible.

There are a MULTITUDE of ideas and attitudes which many believe originate from the BIble, which simply aren't in there. (There is NOTHING new or unusual about that.)

I have observed liberals and progressives long enough to know how right you are.

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Love those the spitefully accuse you. I have.

Still, I do not think you know what love really is. I have no proof that you do what you say.

I am vilified on this site by people that only hate Christians. Now, I am not claiming martyrdom. I am just calling a leftist (progressive/liberal) what they are and what they do. I do not suffer on account of them.

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Love does not sell licentiousness and debauchery and convince others to embrace a lifestyle that cannot be supported by the children of God.

Nor does it prop itself up to act as "God", when such "acts" are merely fashioned by human beings to gain favor or credibility.

Political spin taught so well to the practioners of another Gospel. I'll repeat it: Love does not sell licentiousness and debauchery and convince others to embrace a lifestyle that cannot be supported by the children of God.

Part two later:

[melikio]

Later on 1John; enjoy your memes and bigotry.

-Mel-

[1John2_26]

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Force can be implemented on beauitiful people to have them submit to evil authorities, but that does not mean that Christians should support those evil authorities.

Some believers see YOU and others with your view, as being the "evil" authority.

Then they must use scripture unchanged by politics to make their charges. That does not bode well for the promoters of deviant sex acts and is impossible to support same-sex marriage. Unless Jesus is wrong to certain kinds of Christians. I am not one of them.

You talk as you were standing beside God, when He was writing The Law. I know for a fact (since you are human), that you deserve no less than death (were it not for grace). When you share what you think is true, you need to find a way to communicate that you know that, more readily than you typically do.

If accurate facts will not persuade people that disapproving of homosexuality is not homophobia or bigotry, then being fluffy will only encourage them.

What?! Are you REALLY that much BETTER than every other sinner, 1John?

In what Bible? In mine, I am a sinner.

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Love does not mean encouraging evil.

Love does not FORCE what is "good" either. (Get used to God controlling things, not you and your interpretation of His Word.)

I do. Get used to people like me not going along with progressive laws. No way. The trash of leftist liberalism will fade quickly when it assumes power. Moral people will be alright when it comes and goes.

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Blessing those that commit abominations is not in telling them to practice them:

1John, how many times a day would someone have to tell you to SHUT UP, to keep you under control (as you seem to want control over others)? That people do NOT tell you to shut the heck up here, doesn't necessarily mean that they do not think it wouldn't be a good thing. You cannot PUSH your faith like a bulldozer, over everything you believe is "sin"l; that isn't love and the Bible makes that as clear as anything else.

This is a debate forum. We are on opposite sides. That is all that is happening "here." We are affecting no one.

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Love for Enemies
27"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also.

OK, here we go again! You quote Scripture that most of us have studied before we posted here; many of us have practiced this all of our lives. Yet, you somehow think that POSTING it here, somehow validates or mitigates the message you've offended many with. What are you thinking in doing that? It doesn't make up for the perceived or actual meaning of what you say.

Christians that preach and teach morality and purity are absolutely vilified by your postion and that of your clubmembers of liberals and anti-Christians that scream out against anything a Christian holds precious. Why do you support the vilification of Christians living the way Jesus taught them to?

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If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31Do to others as you would have them do to you.

I seriously doubt that most Christians want to treated in the way that most homosexual people ARE treated by (many) "Christians".

What kind of political spin is that? I was treated the exact same way as any non-Christian should be treated by a Christian as I was taught about Jesus Christ. NOW, preaching that a person most turn away from sins is a hate crime!!!!!!! You make that charge in your position.

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32"If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. 33And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that.

It makes sense to me; still, my biggest concern is with those (cruel people) who don't really know what love is, then go about preaching it as if they "invented" it. Most Christians are NOTHING like Jesus, and that is so very easy to detect.

That would be the "Christians" teaching that men can marry men and women can marry women. And that people should practice homosexuality with members of their own sexual gender. Uh yeah.

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34And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. 35But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

Good words, indeed.

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Judging Others
37"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

Who else doesn't know this? Also good words, not necessarily followed by all who might "post" them.

Criminalizing Christians as homphobes is condemning them as commiting crimes for preaching and teaching Christianity the only way it can be. It is OK I guess for Scrotum and Grumpy to criminalize and vilify Christians but I cannot understand why you do it?

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39He also told them this parable: "Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit? 40A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher.

41"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 42How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

Still, many Christians are effectively difficult and place unreasonable demands upon unbelievers and sinners (as if they don't know what it is to be "faulted" or "human". These WORDS are so easy to recite or post. I knew what a Christian was before I knew what a homosexual was. Some people are FAKERS; almost like magicians with their "religion", giving either false or unverifiable testimony for their own benefit. How in the world do I know that isn't YOU?

You've given me more reasons to DOUBT your character and to DISCOUNT the things you've posted than I can count. I see you don't GET IT!! I'll say it another way:

Until you can PROVE that you are ALL THAT (before God), then come down to where the rest of the sinners are and have a real conversation.

How? I would be the only sinner there. Grumpy and Scrotum are atheists and homosexuals were born with an excuse away the sin of homosexuality. Doesn't seem like a good open discussion. Just a bash session in waiting. And you be quite safe in that one.

And no, that doesn't mean you have to agree when someone says something you reject; you just have to work harder at NOT playing "God" when you hear something you either don't like, don't agree with or find offensive.

We are all intelligent enough to know when someone is calling someone a liar. Even with big words. There is a seperation between Christians and their adversaries. Jesus made that clear.

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Melikio:
The Gay Agenda applies martyrdom applications to its message. Please show me how that that is possible?

Your view of this is ALL so EXTREME! I've never talked to anyone gay/straight who has implied that as a purpose.

WHAT" The very reason the Gay Agenda has siezed power in Massachusetts and California schools is because gays and lesbians are so downtrodden. It is cunning and clever a deception but martyrdom is the fuel behind the homosexual political goals. I have posted the proof.

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"They" have an immense palnk in "their" own eye do "they" not. How can they see clearly the message of purity and morality proclaimed in the Gospel and the New Testament?

If we (collectively) have planks obscurring the truth; then it is up to the individual to correct the problem. You seem to be taking the "Bible" (as a hammer) (along with much ATTITUDE) and trying to WHACK the protruding planks into people's brains. Nowhere in that book, does it tell people to PUT UP with that kind of CRAP.

The same book that tells the followers of Jesus to leave sexual debauchery. Not to practice the sins of the world that will pollute you. James would be charged with homophobia for his writings.

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Or, for that matter in a world where homosexuality is - no matter what politics is employed, the aberration of sexual normalcy - how can the Gay Agenda claim that "it" is not the intolerant viewpoint?

Simple. Those who are "extremist-fundamentalists" or just plain "homophobic", do not act out of love toward homosexuals.

Please explain what "homophobia" actually is? Right now it seems to be anything that does NOT celebrate and promote the Gay Agenda and to teach children to embrace homosexuality.

Hatred is what is TRANSMITTED (onto others), then denied, then justified (internally) by the same elements which caused the EXTREMISM and HOMOPHOBIA in the first place.

Is wanting to be "right with the Lord" extreme homophobia? It is clear that it is from looking at gay legislation.

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You are supporting relativism be unleashed on the modern world. How is this rational or Biblical?

Is the Bible truly "rational"? I don't know about YOU, but many things in there take more than a "little" faith to actually believe. If by "relativism" you implying that I should take more into account than some bigoted "biblical" view pushed down at mankind for generations, then YEP...I'm a RELATIVIST (for sure); deal with it.

You better deal with the fact that opposition is growing to homosexualizing the Christian Church. This really is not Greece or Rome and they didn't tolerate homosexuality when all was said and done.

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"Do what thou wilt." Is neither Biblical nor "sensible."

So, why do you ignore things you shouldn't? Whatever it is 1John, it's 2-Way... not YOUR-way.

As you can see I do not ignore many things.

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Though, it is a statement supported by occultists.

I've heard many more occultists make far better sense of "darkness", than you allegedly make of so-called "truth". I don't say that lightly, because I'm not into the occult; but it is the reality of things as I've experienced things.

Darkness is an experience.

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Al Crowley despised Christianity and that theme runs the gamut in those that proclaim hedonism and licentiousness go unabated and unrestricted in any way.

You show that you enjoy labeling people often; I think it distorts or obscures the "truth" you would know. I don't care what "Crowley" thought of Christianity, really. But I can tell you why you offer me a lot of reasons to reject the bulk of what you claim is "right" or "true". (Did I say, that I don't TRUST you?)

Your buddies sound like Crowley. Not really anything new.

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Of course the hating of Christian morality is nothing new. It seems to run the themes of the licentious.

Christian morality? What do you truly know of it, in your own life? Don't try to prove it here; because you can't.

Test all things which 1John offers, and hold fast to that which is actual truth. (I suspect the load might very "light".)

First start with the human anatomy.