Let's cut to the chase. Do you have any evidence?

[no evidence no belief]

I feel like we've been beating around the bush for... 6000 years!

Can you please either provide some evidence for your supernatural beliefs, or admit that you have no evidence?

If you believe there once was a talking donkey (Numbers 22) could you please provide evidence?

If you believe there once was a zombie invasion in Jerusalem (Mat 27) could you please provide evidence?

If you believe in the flying horse (Islam) could you please provide evidence?

Walking on water, virgin births, radioactive spiders who give you superpowers, turning water into wine, turning iron into gold, demons, goblins, ghosts, hobbits, elves, angels, unicorns and Santa.

Can you PLEASE provide evidence?

[no evidence no belief]

re no evidence no belief Post3011--Please stop arguing against imaginary opponents


Like olavisjo, I too found this demand amusing given its source. Does imaginary opponents include cave dwelling primitives writing down superstitious nonsense. There seems to be no limits to your world view here, no evidence no belief. First you explain ignorance to us across both distance and time and then you decide to give us a linguistic analogy to the process of evolution. I take my hat off to you here because I personally enjoyed it. Linguistic evolution is a human conscious act or response to circumstance and your analogy supports both arguments.

Evolution is not random hardly warrants discussion. Is the fact that most people are religious a random happening? I honestly enjoy your posts and I think that you may have some level of truth in what you say. I will continue to try and find it as an amusing pastime.

Setting aside the condescending tone in which you describe my postings as an amusing pastime, I do hope they help, and that if you find flaws in what I say, you address it in detail rather than vaguely.

[Peter]

Why is the Theory of Evolution so difficult to understand for some people. I learned about it in Mrs. Blackwell's Biology class when I was 13.

I think some people just don't want to understand. Some people see it as a threat to their cherished belief that they are special. If the ToE is true then they're not special any more and that's sad.

Again we see ample evidence that what you believe can be more determined by what you want to believe than the actual facts. Humans are strange creatures.

[olavisjo]

.

To say that foxes can transform into whales is as absurd as saying that Spanish can evolve into Japanese. It cannot.

Again you are wrong. Spanish is not evolving into Japanese in any significant way, but there is no reason why it can't.
However, Spanish is evolving into English in many parts of the world. The same could happen to Japanese.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanglish

[olavisjo]

.

Why is the Theory of Evolution so difficult to understand for some people. I learned about it in Mrs. Blackwell's Biology class when I was 13.

Any 13 year old can understand it, it is not exactly rocket science. But, why would anyone over the age of 13 still believe it, is the part that baffles me.

[zeromeansnothing]

re no evidence no belief Post3023--Setting aside the condescending tone in which you describe my postings as an amusing pastime, I do hope they help, and that if you find flaws in what I say, you address it in detail rather than vaguely.

I stated that you used a linguistic analogy that supported the opposite of your position and I suggested without being rude that highlighting the words, evolution is not random in big red letters was childish. I also stated that I enjoyed your posts but also that it is a bit rich to start talking about imaginary opponents when you have little cave dwelling ignorants running around invention superstitious nonsense all the time. . Your posts I would consider helpful but you must admit that they take some chewing

[Joab]

.

Provide evidence that this is possible.

Why would you dispute it? Every properly educated person knows this is possible.

So you made it up? You do understand that you need to support any claim you make as per forum rules?

[Peter]

.

Why is the Theory of Evolution so difficult to understand for some people. I learned about it in Mrs. Blackwell's Biology class when I was 13.

Any 13 year old can understand it, it is not exactly rocket science. But, why would anyone over the age of 13 still believe it, is the part that baffles me.

So you claim to understand it and reject it. If that's true you would be the first such person I've ever encountered!

[Sir Hamilton]

Sir Fred Hoyle a mathematician and astronomer calculated that the probability of one simple enzyme forming by chance is 10 to the power of 20 (one with twenty zeros behind it), to 1. Hence for one cell to form, about 2000 enzymes are needed, which makes the probability of the first self replicating cell forming by random movement of atoms as 10 to the power of 40000 to 1. One bitter critic of Hoyle begrudgingly says that that this figure is 'probably not overly exaggerated'.

It has been said that this is as likely as a cyclone going through a junkyard and producing a fully functional jumbo jet.

People do say that if you allow enough time, anything can happen. However, at best we have about 4.6 billion years to work with. If Sir Fred Hoyle's calculated probability was for a cell to form in say the next second then the probability of a cell forming in 4.6 billion years is still about 10 to the power of 39982 to 1. If it was for a microsecond, the probability would be 10 to the power of 39976 to 1. If it was for a picosecond, the probability would be 10 to the power of 39970 to 1.

There are approximately 10 to the power of 80 atoms in this universe.

It is also claimed that life came from another planet. Nobel Prize winner Francis Crick recognised the problem of the extremely low probability that life could come from non-life on earth. He concluded that the earth was not old enough, and postulated that life may have come from another planet. Hence in order for us then to have a 1000 to 1 chance of life forming by itself, (and lets assume that an asteroid will definitely take the life to earth) there would need to be roughly 10 to the power of 38970 planets out there (fairly close to us) capable of supporting life.

It's mind-blowing, I get that, but those are some highly pessimistic calculations.

What odds, do you think, are there of your god being formed? Introducing a more complex first-cause just creates a more profound paradox if we're to apply your logic consistently. If life is so complex it needs a creator, then the same must also be true for your god, in fact, even more so, since he's presumably more complex, indicating that he was even more intelligently-designed.

To say that your god is eternal or self-generating, but nature cannot be, is the fallacy of special pleading.

Edit: You plagiarized this post! You copy and pasted this from Post #7 at this message board. We can Google your posts to see where you copy it from. This is terrible!

http://s1.zetaboards.com/Express_Yourse ... 4493441/1/

We believe that God has always been.

I believe in Leprechauns. Do you find that at all convincing?

So it is better to assume that the first cause was what? Nothingness? Eternal matter? You just don't seem to want to accept that you don't know. I ask again...what is the origin of the universe? of life? of man? Declare to me if you know.

Generally, I try not to make assumptions, "better" or otherwise. We don't yet know the origin of the universe. Why is that so hard for you to accept? Why must every unanswered question be answered with "a god" did it? So far, every question answered by "a god" did it was wrong. You have noticed that haven't you?

I do accept that you don't know the origin of the universe. As for me, because of my relationship with my heavenly Father i do know the origin of the universe. I never claimed that every unanswered question is something that god did.

You Sir cannot possibly know the origin of the universe because you cannot possibly know any more about it than anyone else and nobody else knows the origin of the universe. Can you tell me one instance where "god did it" was correct?

Oh my the idea that I know the origin of the universe and you don't just irritates you doesn't it? Just because you don't know doesn't mean that others do not. You are not the be all and end all of knowledge my dear Peter. As for the "god did it"....you brought up that nonsense first so you will have to explain what you mean.

[Sir Hamilton]

there is more evidence for precise intelligent design than accidental

The notion that the complexity of life arose accidentally or randomly is absurd. Of course that's not what happened. You are definitely winning this argument that you're having against yourself. But that's not an argument you're having against any evolutionary biologist. That's because no evolutionary biologist would EVER say that evolution is random/accidental.

I can't stress this enough: Evolution is not random. EVOLUTION IS NOT RANDOM. EvOlUtIoN Is NoT rAnDoM. Evolution is not random. Evolution is not random.. Evolution is not random.. Evolution is not random. Evolution is not random. Evolution is not random

EVOLUTION IS NOT RANDOM

Do you understand?

When you say that "Intelligent design is more likely than random accident" it's as though you were saying 'The earth being flat is more likely than the earth being the shape of a 1950s telephone". NOBODY IS SAYING the earth is the shape of a 1950s telephone, and nobody is saying the complexity of life arose randomly or by accident. The earth is a globe, and the complexity of life arose through cumulative processes over billions of years through natural selection guided by the survival of the fittest.

Please stop arguing against imaginary opponents who say evolution is random, and start arguing against actual proponents of evolution - WHO SAY THE EXACT OPPOSITE.

You are absolutely wrong. If there was or is no Intelligence designing or guiding this natural selection then it is indeed RANDOM. It is indeed chance. It is indeed blind-luck. So which is it? Oh wait a minute I get it...these molecules just decided one day to get together in just the precise manner in order to become a simple living cell....is that it?

[Joab]

[Replying to post 3030 by Sir Hamilton]

Leprechauns have always been and they created the universe, they also created bubbles. I know these things because of my personal relationship with Leprechauns.