The Vitriol of the Pro-Gay Agenda

[dbohm]

In a debate currently occurring under the title of "Can you choose what gender you are attracted to?", I have been called a homophobe, ignorant and bigot by people who I otherwise have a high regard for in this forum.

Nowhere did I even say that homosexuality was even so much as immoral in my posts. Yet because I was putting forward a secular argument against gay marriage that is opposed to the current pro-gay agenda, I'm called any number of names.

Is this really the way to debate what is currently a very controversial and significant issue for everyone? Is it a legitimate tactic to shout down your opponents by calling them ignorant bigots because they have reasoned concerns?

[Overcomer]

If nothing else, that post hits on one of the great tragedies of homosexuality -- the high number of suicides in that group. It's just so tremendously sad and I am appalled by it, too.

However, I don't think it is rooted in society's intolerance of homosexuality, but in the fact that gays are disconnected from God -- as we all are and as we will all remain if we don't confess and repent of our sins.

That's what I hope for everybody -- whether heterosexual or homosexual -- just grab on to Jesus and let him change you and your life! He is capable of it and more than willing to do it, but it takes our willingness to make it happen.

And I know that's not easy. It isn't easy for anybody, but it comes down to this -- which do we love more? God or our sins?

[Boosh]

If nothing else, that post hits on one of the great tragedies of homosexuality -- the high number of suicides in that group. It's just so tremendously sad and I am appalled by it, too.

However, I don't think it is rooted in society's intolerance of homosexuality, but in the fact that gays are disconnected from God -- as we all are and as we will all remain if we don't confess and repent of our sins.

That's deluded and disrespectful. It doesn't even make sense. You just got done saying there's a high number of gay suicides and conclude its because they are apart from God, but you go on to say we all are. What??? If we all are shouldn't gay suicide rate be in line with all us other sinners apart from God? There's plenty of gay Christians that repent just as anyone does. They still feel the same feelings of rejection any other LGBT person does from society

[Haven]

Moderator Warning


This reaction is out of line. I'm making this a warning because you just acknowledged that we should be civil in this discourse.

Again, people are free to express and attack beliefs, but nobody is free to make any personal attacks and name-calling.

Please review our Rules.

______________

Moderator warnings count as a strike against users. Additional violations in the future may warrant a final warning. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

Otseng, I'd like to apologize for making that post, which did violate the rules on civility. While I feel it's sometimes justified to call out what I believe to be bigotry, you own this forum, not me, and I had no right to derail the thread and break the rules; such a thing violates my own ethics. I'll excuse myself from this discussion, because it is too emotional for me to debate in a civil manner. Please forgive me.

[Darias]

I've studied history, too (I have a degree in it from a secular university). I learned the opposite. Wherever Christians following Christ's teachings went, they improved health care and education. They fought for the rights of women and children, the poor and the weak, the sick and the disenfranchised (for example, Christians founded the Red Cross). And they also fought against slavery. Christians like William Wilberforce successfully ended in it in their countries.

Check out this link for more examples:

http://christiangoodinsociety.blogspot.ca/

Paul claimed that Christ spake through him. Paul approved of slavery. The Christianity history has witnessed isn't all golden as you describe it. Did you not learn about the conquest of the New World? The wars between Protestants and Catholics in Europe? They all thought they were following Christ's teachings. Are you really going to go with the no true Scotsman fallacy here?

Just because you managed to cherry pick a handful of decent human beings who called themselves Christian doesn't mean Christianity is a net plus for the world. Just because you didn't educate yourself on the horror that Christian dogma has wrought, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

As to the Judeo-Christian tradition being the basis of human rights, it is. It teaches that we are made in God's image and have value to him. All people are to be regarded as worthwhile and worthy of respect because of this.

Are you joking?

But where does the atheist's idea of the value of human life come from? It can't come from the purely naturalist or evolutionary worldview. After all, if we're all just accidents of nature, what would make a human being more important than a fly or a snake? And maybe that's why, in atheistic regimes, it has been so easy for those in power to kill so many of the people who have the misfortune of living in them. There is no basis for believing humanity is special.

Have you never heard of philosophy before or any secular argument? I do not appeal to nature.

I can tell you one thing. I know objective morality cannot flow forth from a subjective agent. It cannot be derived from might. Morality can only be examined with an objective framework, measuring whether or not certain behaviors are consistent.

The root of all evil is special pleading. It's what makes people think they can steal from others, but not desire to be stolen from themselves. It what makes leaders think they can get away with breaking the law, whilst holding the public at a higher level of accountability.

The initiation of force is immoral. Rape, pedophilia, zoophilia, murder, theft -- all violate consent. Right and wrong isn't based on the whim of some celestial dictator.

I can't speak for all atheists because I am an individual, but if you're truly interested in an objective case for secular ethics, I recommend giving this a listen.

[center][yt][/yt][/center]

If not, you're welcome to stick with divine command theory and the inconsistent morality of the Bible.

If there is no source of morality outside of human beings, then we are left with individuals deciding what is right and what is wrong according to their own beliefs and feelings. However, if morality is relative in that way, it means NO ONE has the right to tell anybody else they are wrong about anything. That means a person can't even say that the Judeo-Christian traditions are wrong because they have no basis on which to say that -- unless they borrow from the Judeo-Christian religion and claim humanity of particular value. There is certainly no reason to believe it apart from Christianity or God.

Morality isn't based on feelings and opinions. It's based on reason and consistency and non violence. It is wholly rational and doesn't need an external threat to spread or exist. Be good or Santa won't come. Don't hurt others or you'll go to hell --- both of these ideas appeal to force and threat of force and are invalid.

Morality is a real problem for atheists. As atheist Richard Dawkins put it, for the atheist, there is no "ought", there is just "is". This is why the atheist has to borrow from religion to get a value system, without which, we would have chaos.

Morality is a real problem for everyone it seems. Dawkins is being inconsistent. I do not borrow morality from Bronze Age warlords. I don't go on killing sprees because Yahweh said not to, even though he supposedly orchestrated genocides himself. I don't want to kill because violence is irrational, not in my best interests, and horrifying to anyone capable of empathy; murder is wrong because it makes me the unjustified exception and isn't logically justified. From a consequentialist perspective, murder is also wrong because it maximizes misery for everyone.

But the idea that "murder is wrong because god or government said so" -- such a retarded concept, not a foundation for ethics whatsoever.

As to the issue of homosexuality, here's the thing: To compare it to race or gender discrimination is completely bogus. It has never been a sin to be black or brown or white. It has never been a sin to be a woman. However, it has always been a sin to be homosexual in God's eyes. His idea of sin never changes even if an individual's does or even if an entire society's does. He considers homosexuality a sin right along with fornication, adultery, pedophilia, pride, lying, murder, etc.

I don't care what a fictional, hypocritical creation from the Bronze Age thinks about ethics. Someone who commanded his beloved people to dash babies brains into pieces on rocks, or to save the virgins of the city as rape trophies, is a monster -- not a role model for any sane, rational human being.

Something that harms no one, like eye color and attraction to other adults shouldn't be considered wrong. The Romans considered left handedness evil -- not much better than the Israelite morality in my book.

So how would you feel about having a pedophilia pride parade? Don't laugh at that. If we re-categorize one sexual sin as acceptable and even praiseworthy, then why not do that with all of them? As someone once said, never take down a fence until you see why it was put up in the first place, because once it's down, the cattle will all be out and it will be hard to collect them and re-establish the fence.

Pedophilia is wrong because children aren't capable of consent. Comparing it to homosexuality is as disgusting and retarded as saying that because you like women, you must really like little girls. It's really hard for me to take this thread about civility seriously when you make offensive comparisons like that. Seriously, what the hell?

Have you ever heard of the slippery slope fallacy? If gay people have rights then next thing you know rape will be socially acceptable. Can you show me exactly where the logic is in this train of thought, if you could call it thought?

I speak out against homosexuality, not because I hate homosexuals, but because I love them.

You love them so much that you wouldn't burden them with the same legal rights and privileges and tax breaks you enjoy. Freedom is the Christian man's burden.

I want them to enjoy a full, rich life in Christ on earth and eternity with the Lord in heaven. That won't happen if they persist in the sin of homosexuality.

It also won't happen if you've ever got a divorce, since divorce is permanent and marrying another is a lifestyle of adultery. It won't happen if you eat pork or wear cotton and nylon at the same time, and it won't happen if you don't dip yourself in water either. It also won't happen because once you die of old age, all that's left is what you left behind for everyone else to deal with.

Therefore, I am willing to be called a bigot, etc. for their sake. And I will continue to speak out about other sins, sexual or otherwise, for the same reason.

No one cares if you think homosexuality is wrong or if you think drinking is sinful or if you think worshiping other gods is unforgivable -- the only reason people get upset is because you vote -- not to ban alcohol or mosques or Jewish temples.... you vote to keep other taxpaying people away from the privileges you enjoy. Jesus said do unto others as you would have them do to you, but I guess that doesn't mean anything.

Logic, which predates Christ, says its fallacious to make oneself the unjustified exception to a rule. This is otherwise known as hypocrisy.

In my town, there is an ex-gay man who has written a book about his experiences in the gay culture. He asserts that 50 per cent of those in the lifestyle eventually leave it when it no longer excites them. He is one that walked away from it. In fact, I know a couple of ex-gays who walked away from the lifestyle upon becoming Christians. The Holy Spirit showed them why it was sinful and then empowered them to resist it successfully. They are glad to be freed from that sin stronghold.

Personal anecdotes are not evidence for anything; how would he have insight into half of the gay population? I sure as heck don't know what most atheists think and feel about things.

I could tell you about how I deconverted but that doesn't prove anything about the truth. What value is that fact to you?

I'm sorry but ghosts and phantoms don't help you resist anything. The build up of semial fluid in your body isn't whisked away to heaven. If you're attracted to someone sexually, you don't pretend it away. You can't pray the gay away. Who knows, maybe he was bicurious and decided he liked women better.

Is marriage between a man and a woman a lifestyle? Or is that just a choice of words you like to use to demean the love people can have for each other?

I'm bisexual, and I can tell you that any relationship I enter into will be a loving one, not devoid of sex mind you, but your laws and your voting and your terminology will not do a damn thing to diminish what I will have. I'm a virgin btw, not a sex addict -- oh but how can it be? I thought all gays were sex obsessed?

That, of course, constitutes a problem for those who remain in the gay lifestyle -- people walk away from it and never return. They live happy lives as heterosexuals -- even though at some point in their lives, they were absolutely convinced that they were born that way. Why? Because it felt right. But we cannot rely on feelings. Because we are all born with sin natures, our feelings are going to be warped to a certain extent and, therefore, lead us astray. After all, it feels right to the pedophile to molest children, but that doesn't make it right, does it? We cannot go by feelings alone.

Homosexuality isn't justified on the basis of feelings. It is an activity that requires consent. Boxing, sex, making a sale -- all of these require consent, lest they be considered assault, rape, or theft.

And what's really sad are the stories coming from ex-gays who are attacked and brutalized by gays who don't want their stories to be heard.

What the hell are you talking about?

I live in Canada where homosexuals can legally married. However, very few of them have done so. When asked why, gay men have said they have no interest in marriage at all because they want to be free to go from lover to lover to lover (something my ex-gay neighbour who wrote the book attests to). It's all about sex, not love. The only reason they campaigned to get the right to marry was to try to make people accept their lifestyle. They had no intention of actually tying the knot with anybody.

Have you actually met any gay people or conducted a poll? Do you have a study that shows gay people don't wanna get married? I plan to get married one day but even if I didn't I should be able to have the freedom to do it anyway. Saying gay people don't really wanna get married is a really stupid argument, given that so many gay people support equality under the law.

Apart from sodomy laws in the US, there's nothing threatening gay people for having sex already. It's not about sex, it's about having the same legal rights as people who like the opposite sex.

It's one thing for adults to choose to remain gay, but what's really troublesome is their having families. Even secular psychologists and experts say that a child needs a mother and a father. That is the ideal situation for kids. Yes, heterosexual marriages can go down the drain and some kids grow up without one parent (usually a father), but most don't start out planning that. However, when it comes to homosexuals, we are purposely allowing them to put children in a home that is less-than-ideal right from the start, without hope of any change for the better. In a few generations, we will see just how this experiment has negatively affected kids raised with two "mothers" or two "fathers" and no influence from a parent of the opposite sex.

Same sex couples are often more prepared to have children because they want them. It doesn't matter what the sex of your parents are, but it does matter that you have parents in your life as a kid. Keeping people in foster homes by outlawing gay adoption isn't helping any children. Also 5% of the population cannot be condemned for what 95% of the population does to their children. Don't you know how many accident babies are made by people who are careless? That can't happen between gay couples. Gay people aren't the ones having abortions out the wazzoo and aren't the ones ignoring their kids, by and large. Straight Christians are the champions of divorce, abortions, and child neglect, and child rape. That's just statistics. If those issues concern you, focus on the majority of people who do those things. Oh I forgot, homosexuality is the most important of all sins... even though they're all equally bad.

I agree that no gay person should be beaten up or mocked, etc. just as no adulterer should be beaten up or mocked. Nor do I feel any superiority over homosexuals just because I am heterosexual. I have sins, too. They are no more pretty to God than that of the homosexual. But I am aware of them and I am working with the Holy Spirit to overcome the temptation to commit them in his power. That's what being a Christian is all about -- being in a relationship with the Lord and going through a life-long process of sanctification to clean up one's act and become more like Jesus.

Your sins aren't illegal. You won't see me voting away your freedoms

That option is available for homosexuals, too. But if we keep saying to them that their sin is perfectly fine, they will miss out on that opportunity. I am intolerant of anything that keeps people from God. That's why I am intolerant of homosexuality just as I am of adultery, lying, greed, etc. And I don't apologize for my intolerance. It's based in God's truth and love whether pro-gay people realize it or not.

I don't care what you think. You can be as intolerant towards or ignorant of others and secular values as you want to be -- just don't use force against me as if society was your property. I will not be your slave, and I will not be your god's slave, or your country's slave. If you go anywhere near the ballot box, you're just like Peter with a sword. If you abstain from voting, only then can you be said to be like Christ.

Being christ-like in your own eyes only has little value to me.



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[Goat]

If nothing else, that post hits on one of the great tragedies of homosexuality -- the high number of suicides in that group. It's just so tremendously sad and I am appalled by it, too.

However, I don't think it is rooted in society's intolerance of homosexuality, but in the fact that gays are disconnected from God -- as we all are and as we will all remain if we don't confess and repent of our sins.

That's what I hope for everybody -- whether heterosexual or homosexual -- just grab on to Jesus and let him change you and your life! He is capable of it and more than willing to do it, but it takes our willingness to make it happen.

And I know that's not easy. It isn't easy for anybody, but it comes down to this -- which do we love more? God or our sins?

Well, yes, it is in specifically Christian criticism and intolerance to gays that is causing many of those suicides. Many of those suicides come from the Christian 'repartive Therapy' to try to turn gays into ex-gays.

Case in point. My friend is a lesbian who was forced by her fundamentalist parents to go to a 'pray the gay' away boot camp. She was plunged into cold water and prayed over, electroshock therapy, and other behaviors that would be considered brain washing techniques. There were 12 people with her in that boot camp undergoing 'treatment'. Out of the 13 of them , (it's been 16 years), 7 are dead. They all were in their teens. Several of those deaths were OD's, and several of those deaths were suicides. That is specifically because of the actions of Christians, telling these people they were worthless.

Sorry, but it's right wing Christian intolerance of gays that cause these people to kill themselves.

[David Henson]

[Replying to post 1 by dbohm]

I once posted an article on hell on a atheist forum and an atheist poster there started announcing in all caps that I was a homophobic Christian. The article never mentioned homosexuality, it was only assumed that I was Christian and so homophobic. I told the poster I was homosexual and he started announcing that in all caps, with homophobic insults and jokes.

On another forum when I revealed that I was a non practicing homosexual because of my beliefs a homosexual poster there started to endlessly harass me for being "ambiguously gay," and "a self loathing homosexual."

On yet another forum a heterosexual who was a gay rights activist started harassing me when I said that I stopped practicing homosexuality because of my beliefs by calling me an "intellectually dishonest coward" in response to all of my posts, no matter what the OP was.

People get really emotionally fixed upon issues that are of a political, social or religious nature, and homosexuality an issue in all three of those categories. Though when I was an atheist homosexual I wouldn't be caught dead in any parade, at the same time I can see their position, in the face of organized religion's self appointed moral policing of the globe.

On the other hand often all I can do is sit back and wonder how we haven't destroyed ourselves by now.

[dbohm]

[Replying to Goat]

There is absolutely no place for that sort of behaviour and mainstream Christianity totally rejects such programs. Even the founder of out-of-exodus has pulled the plug on his program.

[JoeyKnothead]

From the OP:

When one promotes the "virtues" of a book so full of condemnation and hatred toward others, they should not find it less than obvious they'd receive them some flack for it.

Conclusions?

"Beats me why them folks are so full of hate, all I'm a-tryin' to do is spread the 'love' of a hateful god."

[Darias]

[Replying to post 47 by dbohm]

It's too late; they're all dead now. Gone.

Name calling may be uncivil, but torturing the innocent to death or into suicide is evil.

[dbohm]

[Replying to post 47 by dbohm]

It's too late; they're all dead now. Gone.

Name calling may be uncivil, but torturing the innocent to death or into suicide is evil.

Yes agreed.