JohnPaul wrote:
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Replying to post 392 by arian]
arian wrote:
DISTANCE/Time dilation for the outside static/stationary observer:
In one second the ping pong ball would have traveled 186,282 miles and two feet. Doesn't matter what the observer seen or thinks he saw, or what time he thinks the guy in the ship had, .. all that is irrelevant. The main thing is the fact, which is that the bouncing ping pong ball traveled 186,282 miles and two feet in one second.
You have overlooked a couple of points here. The first is a very minor point, the distance the ping pong ball has traveled. The ball's motion is a combination of two motions, an up-and-down motion and a "forward" motion of the ship. Therefore the path of the ping pong ball is a diagonal motion to an outside observer, the hypotenuse of a right triangle. Using grade school math, the square of the hypotenuse of a right triangle is the sum of the squares of the other two sides. Therefore, the distance the ball has traveled is the square root of the sum of 186282 miles squared plus 1 foot squared, or only infinitesimally more than 186282 miles, not two feet more. Perhaps the kindergarten boy in your example can be forgiven for not yet having grade school math, but the father has no such excuse.
I didn't have grade school math, or high school math, but I did learn trigonometry using a booklet to figure out the sides of the triangle I need. Also, I don't see the ball traveling in a strait line up two feet and then down two feet, because the ball is traveling at a much slower speed than 186,282 miles per second. Now if the distance between the two plates was 93,141 feet high, and the ball traveled at the speed of light, then you should get a straight line, am I correct? But like this, we have a curve the ball is traveling, and to trig out the curve which has infinite points, it takes a lot of trigging. Tell me at what intervals you want it trigged out at, 1 foot, one inch or .001 increments? The smaller the increments, the more accurate distance we get. I know you know that, I'm just saying.
JohnPaul wrote:The first point is too trivial to bother with, but the second point is fundamental and overwhelmingly important. WHAT THE OUTSIDE OBSERVER SEES is the whole point of Relativity. In this case, the ship would be traveling at the speed of light relative to the outside observer, so time dilation would cause time within the ship to be reduced to zero.
Prove it.
Relative to themselves-
The time for the guy in the ship is running normally, correct? Or seems like it anyways, right?
The time for the observer is running normally, .. correct?
The time for every other being or thing in the universe is running normally, so why would time dilate for the guy traveling 186,282 m/p/s in the ship? Because Einstein said so? What made him come up with an idea like that anyways?
What I mean is this, bear with me here; He said that speed decreases time, but it doesn't, speed only decreases the time we get from here to there.
Look JohnPaul, .. if an observer at a distance was watching a rocket traveling 186,282 m/p/s between two telephone poles set at 186,282 miles apart, the observer would see the ship pass the first pole and with his atomic clock time the rocket when it reached the other pole 186,282 mile away, and it would be exactly one second, correct?
Or two sensors are built in both poles, and when the rocket passes the first pole, the sensor starts the clock, and when it reaches the second pole, it stops the clock. The clock sitting still should show 1 second, correct?
The guy in the rocket would show one second traveled between the two poles on his clock also, because for the guy in the rocket relative to himself time passes the same, correct?
But now you say that when the guy comes out of the ship, his clock would suddenly go backwards and show less than one second, .. far less. HOW and WHY? So the guy in the ship who timed one second on his atomic clock between the poles, steps out of his rocket and his clock would go back one second? Showing no time passed? But he seen it with his own eyes at the same time the observer seen his own clock. This is one event observed by two observers, one stationary and the other traveling 186,282 m/p/s
.
Not only that, but you guys say that because of his speed, once he got out of his ship after passing the 186,282 mile mark and walked over to the observer, the observer would have aged weeks or maybe even months?
Look again .. the observer sees the rocket at a distance passing from one telephone pole and reaching the other at 186,282 miles away in one second (as timed by the sensors mounted on the two telephone poles)
One second passed for the observer.
The guy in the rocket has his clock running too, and he sees one second pass as he reaches the other telephone pole, correct?
He then pulls over, gets out;
He would say that he observed that he timed and observed that one second passed in traveling from one telephone pole to the other, correct?
The observer would say he watched and timed him traveling the 186,282 mile distance in one second also, correct?
So what Einstein is saying is that once the guy gets out of his rocket, the observer would age weeks, while the rocket guys clock would show zero time passed. I say that is a fairytale time traveling sci-fi delusion. the guy in the rocket 'timed' his travel between the two poles, and he seen the atomic clock with its billionth of a second come to a stop at exactly one second. So once he gets out of his ship, time, and his clock does a trick on him?
JohnPaul wrote:The ping pong ball, the crew's clocks and watches, their brains and hearts, everything in the ship as seen by the outside observer, would be absolutely motionless and would remain motionless for all eternity for the outside observer. Seconds, hours, days, years, centuries would pass for the outside observer, but not the tiniest fraction of a second for those inside the moving ship.
Says who, the guy in the moving ship, or the guy outside observing INSIDE the moving ship, as if that make sense, or was possible? A ship
passing by the observer at 186,282 m/p/s, and you guys are trying to tell me he would say;
"wow, I saw the whole thing dude, .. he was like, .. standing still dude! I swear!"
Yes, compared to the ship he was traveling in at 186,282 m/p/s, the guy in the rocket would SEEM like standing still, but he is not. He could be walking around and juggling 5 apples in his hand while traveling, and his heart, his apples, his walking would all be relative to the universal time that others were observing him. No less or no more.
JohnPaul wrote:You have not yet grasped the fundamental principle of Relativity. TIME AND DISTANCE ARE DIFFERENT FOR DIFFERENTLY MOVING OBSERVERS. If they are moving at the speed of light, the difference is infinite, as in your example above
Say what you will, but the day I buy into something traveling 186,282 m/p/s as infinite, is the day I admit the universe popped out of nothing, or that our Creator God is really one plural three gods.
You measure stars at light years distance, all the while claiming C has no time, or infinite. Don't you see the irony in that? Now if light was 'instant', then having something other then light, like a ship travel at C (instant) it would make sense that time would stop, because you could reach the other side of the physical universe in NO TIME, or in an instant.
Now this would make sense in length contraction also, since the ship would be here and at the end of the universe at the same time, but I would call that length expansion, because the ship would span the entire universe, being here AND there at the 'same time', or in no time.
If you guys don't have an acceptable, reasonable and rational explanation to this over-used statement of; "
TIME AND DISTANCE ARE DIFFERENT FOR DIFFERENTLY MOVING OBSERVERS", I will consider this debate WON!
You may call me names for all I care, but I will continue to pray for all you Big-bang Evolution Relativists, that you may see the light, not the illuminati one, but the truth, the true light that only your mind can see.
