From some recent threads, it appears that its time to repost this yet again -- as usual, as an informational piece only. It first appeared, in a slightly different form, in late 2007. It was among my very first posts to this forum.
My usual caveats before I begin:
This post is NOT an attack on Christianity.
This post is intended to EXPLAIN some things that very many non-Jews, including many Christians but also including many others, apparently do not understand.
Jews, as a rule, do not comment on the truth or falsehood of any other faith, and that includes the Christian faith; we have no right. We only claim to know how, in the words of our tradition, God chose to speak to US. If He chose to speak to another people in another manner, that is no business of ours, and we have no warrant to say that He did not.
Asserting a belief in one tradition is NOT, in our view, a negation of all others, no matter how passionately others try to put those words in our mouths. We go our own way, and others may go theirs; we do not believe ours to be "the only true religion," as some others do, nor do we believe that one must be Jewish to be "saved." We truly have no such concept anyway, as will be seen presently.
This post is also not addressed to atheists. I have spoken on the radically different theology (insofar as it exists) of the Jewish religion elsewhere, and at length, and have many times noted the fact that very many Jews ARE atheists; but all of those issues, and the debates and discussions connected thereto, are not for this thread, and I will not be dealing with them here.
This post is on the rather more limited topic of why the Jews did not, and do not, and will not, accept Jesus as our Messiah.
That some few have, and do, does not matter, any more than the fact that very many Christians have converted to Judaism as well (I am one of them). People may choose to believe as they like; but that is not relevant here. The fact is that there are reasons why very few Jews who are familiar with and committed to their faith and tradition ever have, or ever will, believe in Jesus. This post is an effort to explain some of the most important of those reasons. If you do not agree with them, that is your right, but these matters are not, for Jews, open to debate or argument.
The core of this problem is that the office of Messiah, to Jews, and that of the Christ, to Christians, are two very different and virtually mutually exclusive things.
To begin, then: Jesus, to put it plainly, simply did not perform the very specific actions that the Messiah was expected to do. There can be no "wiggle room" here; the tradition has been constant for, quite literally, thousands of years, and it has not changed. It is true that most modern Jews are no longer much interested in the figure of the Messiah, and his importance has rather sunk into the background in recent centuries; but the concept, and the office, remains the same.
The issue was never that there were certain "prophecies" that the Messiah had to "fulfill," as many seem to think. Most of the prophecies which it is claimed that Jesus fulfilled were never considered prophecies by Jews in the first place, a fact which is easily confirmed by any good book on Judaism. The very term prophecy has a different meaning in the Jewish religion anyway; there, it is only occasionally related to foretelling the future, and even then generally only in the short term.
The Messiah was never to be identified by prophecy; he was to be identified by the PERFORMANCE of certain concrete, real-world actions. To do them was to be the Messiah, and the meaning of the word "Messiah" was "the man who does these things."
Jesus did not do them. He was not the Messiah. There is no "therefore," because the phrases are synonymous.
Jesus fulfilled one and only one attribute of the Messiah; he was of the tribe of Judah. Much is made of this in two of the Gospels, Matthew and Luke, with elaborate genealogies given for Mary, and, oddly, for Joseph.
Other than that, St. Paul and the Gospels to the contrary, Jesus did nothing expected of the Messiah. Three such expectations will suffice for our purposes:
The Messiah was to be a military and/or a political leader, an actual, rightful King who would restore the line of David to the throne of Israel and reign in Jerusalem as the actual, literal earthly monarch of the Jewish nation.
He would restore the political independence of the land of Israel and free it from foreign rule.
Most importantly, his coming would coincide with the beginning of a time of perfect peace, justice, liberty and piety that would shortly extend over all the earth -- in THIS world and THIS life, and not in a "symbolic" or spiritual way, but in literal, present human history. Whether he himself would bring about this "Messianic Age," or whether he would arrive after we humans ourselves have achieved it by our own efforts, has been a bone of contention among Jews for centuries. I, myself, do not claim to know.
This last is, as I say, the most important signifier of all; the Messiah would arrive with the Messianic Age. He was named for it, and it was named for him. The two would come together, or not at all. They were, and remain, one.
It seems rather clear that none of these occurred, and most glaringly the last, which was and has always been the most important sign and task of the Messiah. The short answer, for many Jews, to the question "Why don't you believe in Jesus?" is "Oy! Look around!" The world is not at peace; ergo, Messiah has not come. That's an end to the "debate," for most Jews.
And now we come to the nature of the Christian Christ, and the enormous differences between what is said of Jesus and the attributes of the Jewish Messiah.
Put simply: Jesus claimed (or it was claimed for him) that he had power and authority that no Jew could or would claim for any man, and power and authority far beyond any that were ever attributed to the coming Messiah. These claims were, and remain, alien to Judaism and are in fact often blasphemous from a Jewish point of view.
First, It was claimed that Jesus was God incarnate; that he, a human being, was, in fact and truth, God Almighty Himself in the flesh.
It would be hard to think of an idea more repugnant to Jews, then or now. The oldest and most fundamental and nonnegotiable tenet of Judaism is that God is One, which means a good deal more than "one God." Among other things, it means that God is unique and indivisible, and shares His Essence and Being with no one and nothing. He is Alone. He is One.
It was, therefore, and will remain, impossible for Jews to accept the claim that a man could be, in any sense, God. The Messiah was never conceived to be anything other than an ordinary mortal man; anointed by God, to be sure, but no more a God himself than King David was, the paradigmatic King in Jewish history and tradition. There is no hint of such a thing as a Divine Man anywhere in Jewish tradition, teaching or literature; it is about as likely as the High Priest carving a stone idol and placing it in the Holy of Holies. It was, and remains, quite literally unthinkable.
The one -- count em, ONE -- verse from Scripture (Isaiah 9:6) that is commonly given as proof that this notion DID have a part in Jewish tradition is, without apology, a gross misreading and mistranslation of the passage in question; and it is also, just as importantly, unique. The idea that such a radical departure from the ancient tenets of the Jewish religion would not be known and even heavily emphasized throughout Jewish teachings over the centuries, as opposed to appearing in one and only one verse of the Bible, is more than a little ludicrous. Basing the practice of snake-handling on one verse in Mark is positively reasonable and credible in comparison.
Second, Jesus was said to be the literal son of God. This was way beyond bizarre. The idea that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of Moses and Sinai, could or would come down to earth and father a human child on a human woman is as foreign to Judaism as temple prostitution. That is a Greek idea, not a Jewish one -- consider Zeus and Hercules -- and it may be no coincidence that Paul was speaking to Greeks, not Jews, when he formulated it. There has never been anything within a light-year of that idea anywhere in all the enormous tradition and long history of the Jewish people. It is, once again, unthinkable:
Third, Jesus claimed the power and authority to forgive sins.
All sins.
It may be more difficult to see why this is such a problem for Jews, because this is not widely known: In the Jewish religion, sins can only be forgiven by the person being sinned against. That means, among other things, that God Himself cannot forgive all sins. If I punch you in the nose, who is God to forgive me? That sin must be forgiven by you, and only you, or it is not to be forgiven at all. No one else has the right. God can forgive sins against Himself -- failures to honor vows, ritual "sins," and so on -- but not personal sins against other people.
This is why Jews do not generally respond to the observation that the Holocaust should be "forgiven." We, the Jews of the present day, have no right. As Elie Wiesel, himself a Holocaust survivor, once said: "Ask the six million for forgiveness."
By the same token, even Christians, I think, often feel a certain revulsion when some convicted murderer taunts his victim's family with "God has forgiven me; why can't you?" I think most people instinctively feel that claim to be fraudulent and self-serving, not to mention hypocritical, even if they dont share our belief.
By claiming the authority to forgive ALL sins, Jesus was not claiming to be coequal with God; he was claiming to be greater than God. No wonder some tore their robes and cried Blasphemy! when they heard him speak.
Fourth, as if all this were not enough: It was claimed that Jesus took on a role that had never been contemplated by any Jew from Abraham onward, a role that was not necessary and was, again, alien to the whole of Jewish teachings and traditions from the beginning to the present day; That role was that of Savior. it is claimed that Jesus was the sacrifice that saves all men from their sins, and that this salvation is accessed by believing in him, and nothing more.
This seems simple; but for Jews, there are no less than six separate problems here.
First, the idea that people need to be saved from their sins in the first place. Jews have never believed in "Original Sin," nor that all people are born sinful. We believe that everyone has an impulse to do good, and an impulse to do evil, and that these remain with us all our lives; our job is to follow the first and resist (or redirect) the second to the best of our ability.
Second, St. Paul to the contrary, Jews have never taught, nor do we believe, that we are obligated to fulfill "the whole of the Law" or face eternal damnation. We believe that, since God made us, He knows our imperfection and our weakness, and does not demand that we be perfect and without fault or flaw. That would be the act of an unjust God, and we do not believe that God is unjust.
Third, Jews do not believe that any human can bear the sins of another. That principle is underlined in the Torah over and over again. Each man bears his own sins, and that cannot be changed. Sins are forgiven through prayer, repentance, and deeds of lovingkindness. No blood is necessary.
Fourth, we do not believe that a "sacrifice" is necessary to obtain forgiveness for sins, whether animal or human (and the idea of a human sacrifice is so far from any Jewish belief or practice that it is barely comprehensible that anyone would even propose it as a possibility). It is true that animal sacrifices were performed in the Tabernacle and later in the Temple, but it is clear throughout the Torah and the Prophets that the sacrifice itself was meaningless without the repentance and devotion of the individual human heart.
Fifth, in Judaism, "belief" accomplishes precisely nothing by itself. There is no Creed in Judaism, no specified set of acceptable beliefs. What one "believes" is all but insignificant next to what one does, and no amount of "belief" cancels or ameliorates the results of one's actions. Believing the proper "doctrines" in Judaism is utterly irrelevant to anything at all.
A concrete example, put simply: if I am in need, what do I care what you "believe"? Will you help me, or not? Nothing else matters.
Sixth, Jews are not even certain that there is a Heaven at all. Judaism has rather little concern with the afterlife; it is not mentioned in the Torah, and belief in it seems to have been entirely absent from its teachings in the early years of our religion. Even those Jews who do believe in Heaven spend little time or energy thinking and talking about it -- and there is no belief in an eternal fiery Hell at all, anywhere in all of Jewish history or tradition. The focus of the Jewish religion is THIS life, in THIS world. The next, we leave to God. Salvation, in the Christian sense of going to Heaven, is a non-issue for Jews. It is not even a peripheral interest, let alone a central principle.
As you can see, though Judaism and Christianity share an ethic, basic values, and many religious practices, as well as (in part) common literature, our views of the nature and structure of the relationship between God and man, the nature and importance of sin and the means of its forgiveness, the significance of the afterlife, and many other matters, are so profoundly different that they really do constitute two entirely separate religions.
That one was derived from the other, and that we share a large body of Scripture, no longer matters. We stand beside each other as brothers; but we have long since taken separate paths. We ought to respect one another and work together where our ideals and ethics converge in the real world -- which is almost everywhere. Where our beliefs differ, we should agree to disagree and leave each other alone, because there can be no reconciliation there.
One more note: It is wholly illegitimate and improper for a follower of any faith to attempt to dictate to a follower of another what his beliefs OUGHT to be, then castigate him because they do not follow his prescription. No one has any warrant to point out passages of "prophecy" in our own Scriptures that we do not, and have never, read as such, and overrule the traditions and beliefs that we have held for more than three thousand years--and tell us what we ought to think and believe. No one has that right; not you, not your Church, not Jesus himself.
To Christians: This caveat applies in both directions. We have no warrant to tell YOU how to read the Bible, either; you may read the Hebrew Bible, which you have adopted as your Old Testament, in any way you choose. We also have no warrant to deny that Jesus is your Savior, or to deny that, for you, any belief you may hold about him is true. That is between you and God, and is none of our business; for all any Jew knows, those beliefs are true and correct for Christians and God will honor them. Jesus may very well be YOUR Messiah, even though he is not ours. That is not for us to say.
But in the same way, it is not your right to insist that we abandon our own beliefs and convictions in favor of an understanding of our own Scriptures that we have never held. As I say; this matter is not open to debate. This determination was made by my people two thousand years ago, and it has been reaffirmed in every generation.
If anybody is planning to post a point-by-point attempt at refuting all this, complete with a whole raft of "proof texts" from the Bible -- Old OR New Testament -- it will be a waste of your time. It won't be a waste of mine, because I've seen them all before, and I'll be declining to "debate." Others may choose to respond, which is fine, but for my part, I'll just refer you to this website, where you will find all the information you need.
If anyone wishes to DISCUSS these things, on the other hand, I'd be glad to participate. But don't try to convince me, as so many have, that Judaism actually, really does teach that Jesus was the true Messiah. That argument entails one of two, and only two, corollaries, you see; (1) that Jews are too stupid to understand their own religion and have been for 2,000 years, or (2) that we all secretly know that Jesus was our Messiah and have simply been lying about it. Both of those claims are insulting, demeaning, and grossly offensive to Jews, and are therefore by definition antisemitic. Don't go there.
I'll close with a saying from the Talmud that, I would hope, indicates a way to peace. When the sages of old disagreed and could find no way to reconcile their differences, they would often allow both rulings to stand as equally acceptable options in Jewish law. When asked how this was possible, it was said that "When Elijah comes, he will explain which of us was right -- or why we both were."
In that spirit, I'll offer this: I have said for many years that, when (if) the Messiah finally comes, the Jews will look up and say, Youre here! the Christians will look up and say, Youre back! -- and then well all hug each other and laugh about it.
Peace to all.
One More Time: Why Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah
Moderator: Moderators
Post #31
cnorman18 wrote:First off your OP had no questions that I can remember. The first post was a statement that I felt was presumptuous and quite frankly wrong. Secondly, my last post answered two of your questions directed specifically to me so it was a lie to say what you said about no one answering your questions.This post is a response to McCulloch's observation, but in a way it is a response to all who have posted on this thread. It is also the last I shall make, unless and until someone attempts to answer MY questions -- something which has not yet happened here.
More to the point of this thread: In all this, Ive not yet seen a single response to my post even attempting to address the points I posted in my OP.
Are you kidding. I addressed the very "Title" of your OP: "Why Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah" Jesus may not be your Messiah, but He certainly was and is the Messiah to the Jews and Gentiles who received Him, both now and 2000 years ago.
No offence please, but isn't that what you have been trying to do to non-Jews from the beginning of this thread?Until someone has the intellectual honesty and the moral courage, not to mention the humility, to stop arrogantly imposing THEIR ideas on Jews and to address THESE issues -- which have been on the table from Page 1 -- I think Ill have nothing more to say here.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But I want to add a final statement that you made in your OP that makes good sense and will hopefully be true in the end. It was well said except for the (if) part.
cnorman18 said:
"In that spirit, I'll offer this: I have said for many years that, when (if) the Messiah finally comes, the Jews will look up and say, Youre here! the Christians will look up and say, Youre back! -- and then well all hug each other and laugh about it. "
-
cnorman18
Post #32
Ever heard of an IMPLIED question?YahDough wrote:First off your OP had no questions that I can remember.cnorman18 wrote: This post is a response to McCulloch's observation, but in a way it is a response to all who have posted on this thread. It is also the last I shall make, unless and until someone attempts to answer MY questions -- something which has not yet happened here.
Apparently not. Okay, to address that quibble, let me quote from the next-to-last paragraph of my last post, the one that was bolded --
"Ive not yet seen a single response to my post even attempting to address the points I posted in my OP."
Okay?
How about the ones I specifically listed immediately after the above statement? See below.The first post was a statement that I felt was presumptuous and quite frankly wrong. Secondly, my last post answered two of your questions directed specifically to me so it was a lie to say what you said about no one answering your questions.
Even to them, he was not the Messiah. He was the Christ.Are you kidding. I addressed the very "Title" of your OP: "Why Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah" Jesus may not be your Messiah, but He certainly was and is the Messiah to the Jews and Gentiles who received Him, both now and 2000 years ago.More to the point of this thread: In all this, Ive not yet seen a single response to my post even attempting to address the points I posted in my OP.
You have addressed ONLY the title of my OP, and then only by insisting that "Jesus WAS TOO the Messiah!" without ever explaining why! He just WAS, I guess.
You are quick to say that you saw "problems" in my post; but you have never addressed the problems that we Jews have with your "Messiah" claim. I have stated them over and over, but you have had nothing to say about any of those problems. You have only ignored them and continued to insist that you're right.
How about answering the questions I SPECIFICALLY LISTED? To wit:
"No attempts, not one, to explain why we Jews never, in all our history, ever taught or thought or believed that the Messiah (1) would be God Himself Incarnate, which is counter to the oldest and most basic of Jewish beliefs; (2) would be a literal Son of God, which is a Greek idea and was never a Jewish one; (3) would be a Savior from sin, which we have never held to be necessary; (4) would die and be resurrected, which is mentioned nowhere in the Hebrew Bible; and (5) why God would renege on his promises to the Patriarchs and prove Himself a LIAR, in that He told us, over and over, that His covenants with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Moses were eternal and everlasting? "
Where are you answers to THOSE?
Let me clarify the issues a bit: We had taught all these things and passed them down for more than a thousand years BEFORE Jesus showed up, along with all the rest of the traditions and beliefs and teachings and Scripture which Christians accepted, and still accept, as true and valid. So, explain it to me; why were THESE teachings, and ONLY these, so completely WRONG? Why do you claim that the Messiah was to be SEVERAL things that we had never even thought of -- and that God would go back on His word to us?
Do you have any answers here, or will you just duck the questions again?
No.No offence please, but isn't that what you have been trying to do to non-Jews from the beginning of this thread?Until someone has the intellectual honesty and the moral courage, not to mention the humility, to stop arrogantly imposing THEIR ideas on Jews and to address THESE issues -- which have been on the table from Page 1 -- I think Ill have nothing more to say here.[/b]
How many times have I refused to call Christianity a "false religion" or anything like it? How many times have I affirmed God's right to speak to other peoples in any way He chooses?
I have never said that Jesus was not the Christ, nor have I arrogantly informed Christians that they should give up that belief. Look, you Christians have an entirely new religion! You have dropped almost ALL of our Jewish practices and beliefs, starting with circumcision and dropping the kosher laws, then dropping MOST of the OT laws, changing the Sabbath day, dropping ALL of the Jewish holidays and instituting your own, even taking your hats OFF in services while we put ours ON. And we're OK with all that. No harm, no foul, no problem. Believe what you want! Practice as you like! But what's wrong with admitting that your Christ is not our Messiah, too?
I have said ONLY that Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah, and nothing more than that -- and no one here has had anything to say in rebuttal to the reasons I have given for that FACT.
Thanks, that's nice.----------------------------------------------------------------------
But I want to add a final statement that you made in your OP that makes good sense and will hopefully be true in the end. It was well said except for the (if) part.
cnorman18 said:
"In that spirit, I'll offer this: I have said for many years that, when (if) the Messiah finally comes, the Jews will look up and say, Youre here! the Christians will look up and say, Youre back! -- and then well all hug each other and laugh about it. "
But don't pretend to have answered my questions when you haven't even tried.
Post #33
cnorman18 wrote:How about answering the questions I SPECIFICALLY LISTED? To wit:"No attempts, not one, to explain why we Jews never, in all our history, ever taught or thought or believed that the Messiah (1) would be God Himself
Incarnate, which is counter to the oldest and most basic of Jewish beliefs;
Well that's good because Christ Jesus is the Son of God.
1Jn:5:5: Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
(2) would be a literal Son of God, which is a Greek idea and was never a Jewish one;
Again, you can't speak for all Jews. You can't leave Christ Jesus behind and expect to be a chosen group unto YHWH. It won't happen.
(3) would be a Savior from sin, which we have never held to be necessary;
That's a bad religious teaching. We stand alone before GOD and need help. He is a necessary mediator/intercessor.
(4) would die and be resurrected, which is mentioned nowhere in the Hebrew Bible;
That's not true. Much is mentioned about Jesus in the Old Testament.
Jesus OT-Prophesied NT-Fulfilled
Concerning his birth Prophesied Fulfilled
1. Born of the seed of woman Gen 3:15 Gal 4:4
2. Born of a virgin Isa 7:14 Mt 1:18-25
3. Seed of Abraham Gen 22:18 Mt 1:1
4. Seed of Isaac Gen 21:12 Lk 3:23+34
5. Seed of Jacob Num 24:17 Lk 3:34
Concerning his nature Prophesied Fulfilled
1. He pre-existed creation Mic 5:2 1 Pet 1:20
2. He shall be called Lord Ps 110:1 Acts 2:36
3. Called Immanuel (God with us) Isa 7:14 Mt 1:22-23
4. Prophet Deut 18:18-19 Acts 3:18-25
5. Priest Ps 110:4 Heb 5:5-6
Concerning his ministry Prophesied Fulfilled
1. Preceded by a messenger Isa 40:3 Mt 3:1-3
2. To begin in Galilee Isa 9:1-2 Mt 4:12-17
3. Ministry of Miracles Isa 35:5-6 Mt 9:35;11:4
4. Teacher of parables Ps 78:1-4 Mt 13:34-35
5. He was to enter the temple Mal 3:1 Mt 21:10-12
The day Jesus was crucified Prophesied Fulfilled
1. Betrayed by a friend Ps 41:9 Jn 13:18-27
2. Sold for 30 pieces of silver Zech 11:12 Mt 26:14-15
3. 30 pieces thrown in Temple Zech 11:13 Mt 27:3-5
4. 30 pieces buys potters field Zech 11:13 Mt 27:6-10
5. Forsaken by His disciples Zech 13:7 Mk 14:27+50
His Resurrection & Ascension Prophesied Fulfilled
1. Raised from the dead Ps 16:8-11 Acts 2:24-31
2. Begotten as Son of God Ps 2:7 Acts 13:32-35
3. Ascended to God Ps 68:18 Eph 2:8-10
4. Seated beside God Ps 110:1 Heb 1:3+13
And no one was able to keep the Covenants of the Law so He made a new Covenant maintained by faith and "written" in the blood of Christ Jesus.5) why God would renege on his promises to the Patriarchs and prove Himself a LIAR, in that He told us, over and over, that His covenants with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Moses were eternal and everlasting? "
Rom:5:1: Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
God didn't go back on His Word. It was that no one could live up to His Word. GOD gave a better Covenant that would include all people of all nations.Let me clarify the issues a bit: We had taught all these things and passed them down for more than a thousand years BEFORE Jesus showed up, along with all the rest of the traditions and beliefs and teachings and Scripture which Christians accepted, and still accept, as true and valid. So, explain it to me; why were THESE teachings, and ONLY these, so completely WRONG? Why do you claim that the Messiah was to be SEVERAL things that we had never even thought of -- and that God would go back on His word to us?
Thank you for letting me believe what I want. But I prefer to believe the Truth.I have never said that Jesus was not the Christ, nor have I arrogantly informed Christians that they should give up that belief. Look, you Christians have an entirely new religion! You have dropped almost ALL of our Jewish practices and beliefs, starting with circumcision and dropping the kosher laws, then dropping MOST of the OT laws, changing the Sabbath day, dropping ALL of the Jewish holidays and instituting your own, even taking your hats OFF in services while we put ours ON. And we're OK with all that. No harm, no foul, no problem. Believe what you want! Practice as you like! But what's wrong with admitting that your Christ is not our Messiah, too?
For some reason you refuse to equate "Messiah with Christ" as a word.
Christ = Messiah = Saviour = Jesus
And I say He was, is, and will be all believers Messiah, Jewish or otherwise.I have said ONLY that Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah, and nothing more than that --and no one here has had anything to say in rebuttal to the reasons I have given for that FACT.
Do you suppose that's your problem or ours?
I certainly have tried.
-
Goat
- Site Supporter
- Posts: 24999
- Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:09 pm
- Has thanked: 25 times
- Been thanked: 207 times
Post #34
YahDough wrote:cnorman18 wrote:How about answering the questions I SPECIFICALLY LISTED? To wit:"No attempts, not one, to explain why we Jews never, in all our history, ever taught or thought or believed that the Messiah (1) would be God Himself
Incarnate, which is counter to the oldest and most basic of Jewish beliefs;
Well that's good because Christ Jesus is the Son of God.
1Jn:5:5: Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
(2) would be a literal Son of God, which is a Greek idea and was never a Jewish one;
Again, you can't speak for all Jews. You can't leave Christ Jesus behind and expect to be a chosen group unto YHWH. It won't happen.
(3) would be a Savior from sin, which we have never held to be necessary;
That's a bad religious teaching. We stand alone before GOD and need help. He is a necessary mediator/intercessor.
(4) would die and be resurrected, which is mentioned nowhere in the Hebrew Bible;
That's not true. Much is mentioned about Jesus in the Old Testament.
Jesus OT-Prophesied NT-Fulfilled
Concerning his birth Prophesied Fulfilled
1. Born of the seed of woman Gen 3:15 Gal 4:4
2. Born of a virgin Isa 7:14 Mt 1:18-25
3. Seed of Abraham Gen 22:18 Mt 1:1
4. Seed of Isaac Gen 21:12 Lk 3:23+34
5. Seed of Jacob Num 24:17 Lk 3:34
Concerning his nature Prophesied Fulfilled
1. He pre-existed creation Mic 5:2 1 Pet 1:20
2. He shall be called Lord Ps 110:1 Acts 2:36
3. Called Immanuel (God with us) Isa 7:14 Mt 1:22-23
4. Prophet Deut 18:18-19 Acts 3:18-25
5. Priest Ps 110:4 Heb 5:5-6
Concerning his ministry Prophesied Fulfilled
1. Preceded by a messenger Isa 40:3 Mt 3:1-3
2. To begin in Galilee Isa 9:1-2 Mt 4:12-17
3. Ministry of Miracles Isa 35:5-6 Mt 9:35;11:4
4. Teacher of parables Ps 78:1-4 Mt 13:34-35
5. He was to enter the temple Mal 3:1 Mt 21:10-12
The day Jesus was crucified Prophesied Fulfilled
1. Betrayed by a friend Ps 41:9 Jn 13:18-27
2. Sold for 30 pieces of silver Zech 11:12 Mt 26:14-15
3. 30 pieces thrown in Temple Zech 11:13 Mt 27:3-5
4. 30 pieces buys potters field Zech 11:13 Mt 27:6-10
5. Forsaken by His disciples Zech 13:7 Mk 14:27+50
His Resurrection & Ascension Prophesied Fulfilled
1. Raised from the dead Ps 16:8-11 Acts 2:24-31
2. Begotten as Son of God Ps 2:7 Acts 13:32-35
3. Ascended to God Ps 68:18 Eph 2:8-10
4. Seated beside God Ps 110:1 Heb 1:3+13
And no one was able to keep the Covenants of the Law so He made a new Covenant maintained by faith and "written" in the blood of Christ Jesus.5) why God would renege on his promises to the Patriarchs and prove Himself a LIAR, in that He told us, over and over, that His covenants with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Moses were eternal and everlasting? "
Rom:5:1: Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
God didn't go back on His Word. It was that no one could live up to His Word. GOD gave a better Covenant that would include all people of all nations.Let me clarify the issues a bit: We had taught all these things and passed them down for more than a thousand years BEFORE Jesus showed up, along with all the rest of the traditions and beliefs and teachings and Scripture which Christians accepted, and still accept, as true and valid. So, explain it to me; why were THESE teachings, and ONLY these, so completely WRONG? Why do you claim that the Messiah was to be SEVERAL things that we had never even thought of -- and that God would go back on His word to us?
Thank you for letting me believe what I want. But I prefer to believe the Truth.I have never said that Jesus was not the Christ, nor have I arrogantly informed Christians that they should give up that belief. Look, you Christians have an entirely new religion! You have dropped almost ALL of our Jewish practices and beliefs, starting with circumcision and dropping the kosher laws, then dropping MOST of the OT laws, changing the Sabbath day, dropping ALL of the Jewish holidays and instituting your own, even taking your hats OFF in services while we put ours ON. And we're OK with all that. No harm, no foul, no problem. Believe what you want! Practice as you like! But what's wrong with admitting that your Christ is not our Messiah, too?
For some reason you refuse to equate "Messiah with Christ" as a word.
Christ = Messiah = Saviour = Jesus
And I say He was, is, and will be all believers Messiah, Jewish or otherwise.I have said ONLY that Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah, and nothing more than that --and no one here has had anything to say in rebuttal to the reasons I have given for that FACT.
Do you suppose that's your problem or ours?
I certainly have tried.
In this matter, Charles DOES speak . By definition, if someone thinks that Jesus is the Messiah, then they are not of the Jewish faith. End of Story. What the person who wrote 1St John says about the matter is not meaningful. That book is not accepted by the Jewish faith as being meaningful for the Jewish faith. Those people who use that book are Christians.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�
Steven Novella
Steven Novella
-
cnorman18
Post #35
cnorman18 wrote:How about answering the questions I SPECIFICALLY LISTED? To wit:"No attempts, not one, to explain why we Jews never, in all our history, ever taught or thought or believed that the Messiah (1) would be God Himself
Incarnate, which is counter to the oldest and most basic of Jewish beliefs;
Well that's good because Christ Jesus is the Son of God.
1Jn:5:5: Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
That's not an explanation of anything; that's a flat-out denial and contradiction of Jewish teachings and nothing more; no explanation of why Jewish teachings were and are wrong -- just a quote from a book that Jews don't consider either relevant or authoritative.
It's funny, you know -- I've been on this forum coming up on seven years, and I STILL have Christians quoting the New Testament to me as if that's going to convince me of anything. You might as well quote from the Bhagavad-Gita or the Analects -- or the Quran, for that matter. Would you be won over if I quoted the Talmud to you? If not, why do you DO that?
We'll call the above "You're just wrong, that's all," #1.
(2) would be a literal Son of God, which is a Greek idea and was never a Jewish one;
Again, you can't speak for all Jews. You can't leave Christ Jesus behind and expect to be a chosen group unto YHWH. It won't happen.
On this matter I CAN and DO speak for all Jews, as Goat observed; the rest is a non sequitur, and I never said any of that anyway. You're putting words in my mouth, and words that do not address the issue at that. A literal son of God? I don't see ANY words here that speak to THAT claim.
So: Another flat-out denial and contradiction of Jewish teaching without any attempt at justification or explanation. "You're just wrong, that's all," #2.
(3) would be a Savior from sin, which we have never held to be necessary;
That's a bad religious teaching. We stand alone before GOD and need help. He is a necessary mediator/intercessor.
Flat-out denial and contradiction, with only your opinion of Christian teaching to back you up. Nothing else. "You're just wrong, that's all," #3.
(4) would die and be resurrected, which is mentioned nowhere in the Hebrew Bible;
That's not true. Much is mentioned about Jesus in the Old Testament.
Jesus OT-Prophesied NT-Fulfilled
Concerning his birth Prophesied Fulfilled
1. Born of the seed of woman Gen 3:15 Gal 4:4
2. Born of a virgin Isa 7:14 Mt 1:18-25
3. Seed of Abraham Gen 22:18 Mt 1:1
4. Seed of Isaac Gen 21:12 Lk 3:23+34
5. Seed of Jacob Num 24:17 Lk 3:34
Concerning his nature Prophesied Fulfilled
1. He pre-existed creation Mic 5:2 1 Pet 1:20
2. He shall be called Lord Ps 110:1 Acts 2:36
3. Called Immanuel (God with us) Isa 7:14 Mt 1:22-23
4. Prophet Deut 18:18-19 Acts 3:18-25
5. Priest Ps 110:4 Heb 5:5-6
Concerning his ministry Prophesied Fulfilled
1. Preceded by a messenger Isa 40:3 Mt 3:1-3
2. To begin in Galilee Isa 9:1-2 Mt 4:12-17
3. Ministry of Miracles Isa 35:5-6 Mt 9:35;11:4
4. Teacher of parables Ps 78:1-4 Mt 13:34-35
5. He was to enter the temple Mal 3:1 Mt 21:10-12
The day Jesus was crucified Prophesied Fulfilled
1. Betrayed by a friend Ps 41:9 Jn 13:18-27
2. Sold for 30 pieces of silver Zech 11:12 Mt 26:14-15
3. 30 pieces thrown in Temple Zech 11:13 Mt 27:3-5
4. 30 pieces buys potters field Zech 11:13 Mt 27:6-10
5. Forsaken by His disciples Zech 13:7 Mk 14:27+50
His Resurrection & Ascension Prophesied Fulfilled
1. Raised from the dead Ps 16:8-11 Acts 2:24-31
2. Begotten as Son of God Ps 2:7 Acts 13:32-35
3. Ascended to God Ps 68:18 Eph 2:8-10
4. Seated beside God Ps 110:1 Heb 1:3+13
And, yet again, a flat-out denial and contradiction of Jewish teachings with nothing but transparently specious Christian interpretations -- of Jewish scriptures -- as support. Well, that won't fly; we had our own interpretations of those passages for centuries BEFORE Jesus, and they are a good deal more credible and more true to the context and meaning of the books than these cherry-picked and carefully edited quotes. You'll find all of these "prophecies of Jesus," and many more, explained and debunked, individually and in order, here and on the following pages. Like I said; I've seen all this before, and it isn't persuasive. If you can cut and paste lists of so-called "prophecies," I can cut and paste lists of how they are easily disproven.
Once again: nothing more than "You're just wrong, that's all." #4.
And, there we have yet another direct contradiction and denial of Jewish teachings -- and of the Biblical text itself; "eternal" and "everlasting" do not mean "contingent on perfect obedience" -- with only Christian doctrine and proof-texts from the NT to back you up, and nothing more. "You're just wrong, that's all," #5.And no one was able to keep the Covenants of the Law so He made a new Covenant maintained by faith and "written" in the blood of Christ Jesus.5) why God would renege on his promises to the Patriarchs and prove Himself a LIAR, in that He told us, over and over, that His covenants with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Moses were eternal and everlasting? "
Rom:5:1: Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
See below.
Yeah, yeah. You already said that.God didn't go back on His Word. It was that no one could live up to His Word. GOD gave a better Covenant that would include all people of all nations.Let me clarify the issues a bit: We had taught all these things and passed them down for more than a thousand years BEFORE Jesus showed up, along with all the rest of the traditions and beliefs and teachings and Scripture which Christians accepted, and still accept, as true and valid. So, explain it to me; why were THESE teachings, and ONLY these, so completely WRONG? Why do you claim that the Messiah was to be SEVERAL things that we had never even thought of -- and that God would go back on His word to us?
Like I said; you're not only contradicting Jewish teachings here -- you're contradicting the Bible itself, and directly, and in many places.
But here's the primary point: You still haven't answered the question.
The question is -- since you apparently missed it -- "So, explain it to me; why were THESE teachings, and ONLY these, so completely WRONG?"
We taught and believed these things for a thousand years before Jesus, and we teach and believe them still. You Christians accepted all the REST of our teachings and practices, even though you pretty quickly revised and abandoned most of them; but you seem curiously unable to explain why THESE were so wrong.
All you have said here is "You're wrong!" That's ALL. Pure pontification and argument-by-command. You have not explained WHY we were, and are, supposedly so wrong. "You just ARE!" seems to be your ONLY argument.
Once again; WHY were we so wrong? Do you think Christians understand the Jewish religion better than Jews? Have we been stupid for 2,000 years? Are we too dedicated to selfishness, sin and evil to accept your "truth"? Or are we just consciously LYING, pretending that Jesus isn't our Messiah while we know better?
Hmm. We haven't considered the FOURTH possibility -- that maybe preaching that we "killed Christ," and that we murdered Christian babies to drink their blood, and blaming us for plagues and famines and wars, and beating and burning and torturing and exiling us for centuries on end, weren't the best approach to convincing us that Jesus was our Messiah. But then, all that's pretty much stopped now, and we're STILL not buying it....
ANSWER THE QUESTION. WHY were we so wrong, and why are we STILL so wrong? Why do your claims STILL not convince us? If you are so CERTAIN that our teachings are, and always have been, so horribly wrong, why can't you PROVE it with anything other than "We're right, and you're wrong, and that's all there is to it?" That's all you've offered HERE...
Oh, and remember this: "I don't know, you just ARE!" isn't an answer, either.
Too bad you can't return the courtesy.Thank you for letting me believe what I want.I have never said that Jesus was not the Christ, nor have I arrogantly informed Christians that they should give up that belief. Look, you Christians have an entirely new religion! You have dropped almost ALL of our Jewish practices and beliefs, starting with circumcision and dropping the kosher laws, then dropping MOST of the OT laws, changing the Sabbath day, dropping ALL of the Jewish holidays and instituting your own, even taking your hats OFF in services while we put ours ON. And we're OK with all that. No harm, no foul, no problem. Believe what you want! Practice as you like! But what's wrong with admitting that your Christ is not our Messiah, too?
And, of course, I note that you refused to answer yet another simple, direct question.
And there you go, begging the question again.But I prefer to believe the Truth.
You still haven't given ANY reason why you think YOUR teachings on the Messiah are "the Truth," and Jewish teachings are not; nor have you given any reason why we Jews have been so terribly WRONG about OUR OWN BELIEFS for 2,000 years.
Sorry, but just SAYING IT is not an argument; it is a CLAIM, and nothing more.
I keep refusing to equate them because "Jewish Messiah" and "Christian Christ" have two radically different definitions. See, you don't get to overturn the JEWISH definition just because you prefer the Christian one.For some reason you refuse to equate "Messiah with Christ" as a word.
Christ = Messiah = Saviour = Jesus
You don't see ME trying to tell you that Jesus DIDN'T rise from the dead, ISN'T your Savior, or ISN'T the Son of God, do you? I'm not saying those ideas aren't TRUE: I have no warrant for that. I'm saying they aren't JEWISH ideas, because they aren't. Why is that so hard for you?
For some reason you keep ignoring all the arguments from Jewish tradition that the word "Messiah" means something other than what YOU think it means, and for some reason you keep arrogantly overruling four thousand years of Jewish teaching and tradition with no justification at all -- other than, "He is TOO the Messiah! He is, he is, he IS!"
And I say He was, is, and will be all believers Messiah, Jewish or otherwise.I have said ONLY that Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah, and nothing more than that --and no one here has had anything to say in rebuttal to the reasons I have given for that FACT.
Do you suppose that's your problem or ours?
Oh, it's yours, all right. I just ask the questions. YOU'RE the one(s) who can't find answers other than "Is too!"
I certainly have tried.
Is that the best you can do? Too bad. I don't think "You're wrong and I'm right!" is either an answer or an argument.
Post #36
cnorman18 wrote:cnorman18 wrote:How about answering the questions I SPECIFICALLY LISTED? To wit:"No attempts, not one, to explain why we Jews never, in all our history, ever taught or thought or believed that the Messiah (1) would be God Himself
Incarnate, which is counter to the oldest and most basic of Jewish beliefs;
Well that's good because Christ Jesus is the Son of God.
1Jn:5:5: Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
That's not an explanation of anything; that's a flat-out denial and contradiction of Jewish teachings and nothing more; no explanation of why Jewish teachings were and are wrong -- just a quote from a book that Jews don't consider either relevant or authoritative.
It's funny, you know -- I've been on this forum coming up on seven years, and I STILL have Christians quoting the New Testament to me as if that's going to convince me of anything. You might as well quote from the Bhagavad-Gita or the Analects -- or the Quran, for that matter. Would you be won over if I quoted the Talmud to you? If not, why do you DO that?
We'll call the above "You're just wrong, that's all," #1.(2) would be a literal Son of God, which is a Greek idea and was never a Jewish one;
Again, you can't speak for all Jews. You can't leave Christ Jesus behind and expect to be a chosen group unto YHWH. It won't happen.
On this matter I CAN and DO speak for all Jews, as Goat observed; the rest is a non sequitur, and I never said any of that anyway. You're putting words in my mouth, and words that do not address the issue at that. A literal son of God? I don't see ANY words here that speak to THAT claim.
So: Another flat-out denial and contradiction of Jewish teaching without any attempt at justification or explanation. "You're just wrong, that's all," #2.(3) would be a Savior from sin, which we have never held to be necessary;
That's a bad religious teaching. We stand alone before GOD and need help. He is a necessary mediator/intercessor.
Flat-out denial and contradiction, with only your opinion of Christian teaching to back you up. Nothing else. "You're just wrong, that's all," #3.(4) would die and be resurrected, which is mentioned nowhere in the Hebrew Bible;
That's not true. Much is mentioned about Jesus in the Old Testament.
Jesus OT-Prophesied NT-Fulfilled
Concerning his birth Prophesied Fulfilled
1. Born of the seed of woman Gen 3:15 Gal 4:4
2. Born of a virgin Isa 7:14 Mt 1:18-25
3. Seed of Abraham Gen 22:18 Mt 1:1
4. Seed of Isaac Gen 21:12 Lk 3:23+34
5. Seed of Jacob Num 24:17 Lk 3:34
Concerning his nature Prophesied Fulfilled
1. He pre-existed creation Mic 5:2 1 Pet 1:20
2. He shall be called Lord Ps 110:1 Acts 2:36
3. Called Immanuel (God with us) Isa 7:14 Mt 1:22-23
4. Prophet Deut 18:18-19 Acts 3:18-25
5. Priest Ps 110:4 Heb 5:5-6
Concerning his ministry Prophesied Fulfilled
1. Preceded by a messenger Isa 40:3 Mt 3:1-3
2. To begin in Galilee Isa 9:1-2 Mt 4:12-17
3. Ministry of Miracles Isa 35:5-6 Mt 9:35;11:4
4. Teacher of parables Ps 78:1-4 Mt 13:34-35
5. He was to enter the temple Mal 3:1 Mt 21:10-12
The day Jesus was crucified Prophesied Fulfilled
1. Betrayed by a friend Ps 41:9 Jn 13:18-27
2. Sold for 30 pieces of silver Zech 11:12 Mt 26:14-15
3. 30 pieces thrown in Temple Zech 11:13 Mt 27:3-5
4. 30 pieces buys potters field Zech 11:13 Mt 27:6-10
5. Forsaken by His disciples Zech 13:7 Mk 14:27+50
His Resurrection & Ascension Prophesied Fulfilled
1. Raised from the dead Ps 16:8-11 Acts 2:24-31
2. Begotten as Son of God Ps 2:7 Acts 13:32-35
3. Ascended to God Ps 68:18 Eph 2:8-10
4. Seated beside God Ps 110:1 Heb 1:3+13
And, yet again, a flat-out denial and contradiction of Jewish teachings with nothing but transparently specious Christian interpretations -- of Jewish scriptures -- as support. Well, that won't fly; we had our own interpretations of those passages for centuries BEFORE Jesus, and they are a good deal more credible and more true to the context and meaning of the books than these cherry-picked and carefully edited quotes. You'll find all of these "prophecies of Jesus," and many more, explained and debunked, individually and in order, here and on the following pages. Like I said; I've seen all this before, and it isn't persuasive. If you can cut and paste lists of so-called "prophecies," I can cut and paste lists of how they are easily disproven.
Once again: nothing more than "You're just wrong, that's all." #4.And, there we have yet another direct contradiction and denial of Jewish teachings -- and of the Biblical text itself; "eternal" and "everlasting" do not mean "contingent on perfect obedience" -- with only Christian doctrine and proof-texts from the NT to back you up, and nothing more. "You're just wrong, that's all," #5.And no one was able to keep the Covenants of the Law so He made a new Covenant maintained by faith and "written" in the blood of Christ Jesus.5) why God would renege on his promises to the Patriarchs and prove Himself a LIAR, in that He told us, over and over, that His covenants with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Moses were eternal and everlasting? "
Rom:5:1: Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
See below.Yeah, yeah. You already said that.God didn't go back on His Word. It was that no one could live up to His Word. GOD gave a better Covenant that would include all people of all nations.Let me clarify the issues a bit: We had taught all these things and passed them down for more than a thousand years BEFORE Jesus showed up, along with all the rest of the traditions and beliefs and teachings and Scripture which Christians accepted, and still accept, as true and valid. So, explain it to me; why were THESE teachings, and ONLY these, so completely WRONG? Why do you claim that the Messiah was to be SEVERAL things that we had never even thought of -- and that God would go back on His word to us?
Like I said; you're not only contradicting Jewish teachings here -- you're contradicting the Bible itself, and directly, and in many places.
But here's the primary point: You still haven't answered the question.
The question is -- since you apparently missed it -- "So, explain it to me; why were THESE teachings, and ONLY these, so completely WRONG?"
We taught and believed these things for a thousand years before Jesus, and we teach and believe them still. You Christians accepted all the REST of our teachings and practices, even though you pretty quickly revised and abandoned most of them; but you seem curiously unable to explain why THESE were so wrong.
All you have said here is "You're wrong!" That's ALL. Pure pontification and argument-by-command. You have not explained WHY we were, and are, supposedly so wrong. "You just ARE!" seems to be your ONLY argument.
Once again; WHY were we so wrong? Do you think Christians understand the Jewish religion better than Jews? Have we been stupid for 2,000 years? Are we too dedicated to selfishness, sin and evil to accept your "truth"? Or are we just consciously LYING, pretending that Jesus isn't our Messiah while we know better?
Hmm. We haven't considered the FOURTH possibility -- that maybe preaching that we "killed Christ," and that we murdered Christian babies to drink their blood, and blaming us for plagues and famines and wars, and beating and burning and torturing and exiling us for centuries on end, weren't the best approach to convincing us that Jesus was our Messiah. But then, all that's pretty much stopped now, and we're STILL not buying it....
ANSWER THE QUESTION. WHY were we so wrong, and why are we STILL so wrong? Why do your claims STILL not convince us? If you are so CERTAIN that our teachings are, and always have been, so horribly wrong, why can't you PROVE it with anything other than "We're right, and you're wrong, and that's all there is to it?" That's all you've offered HERE...
Oh, and remember this: "I don't know, you just ARE!" isn't an answer, either.Too bad you can't return the courtesy.Thank you for letting me believe what I want.I have never said that Jesus was not the Christ, nor have I arrogantly informed Christians that they should give up that belief. Look, you Christians have an entirely new religion! You have dropped almost ALL of our Jewish practices and beliefs, starting with circumcision and dropping the kosher laws, then dropping MOST of the OT laws, changing the Sabbath day, dropping ALL of the Jewish holidays and instituting your own, even taking your hats OFF in services while we put ours ON. And we're OK with all that. No harm, no foul, no problem. Believe what you want! Practice as you like! But what's wrong with admitting that your Christ is not our Messiah, too?
And, of course, I note that you refused to answer yet another simple, direct question.And there you go, begging the question again.But I prefer to believe the Truth.
You still haven't given ANY reason why you think YOUR teachings on the Messiah are "the Truth," and Jewish teachings are not; nor have you given any reason why we Jews have been so terribly WRONG about OUR OWN BELIEFS for 2,000 years.
Sorry, but just SAYING IT is not an argument; it is a CLAIM, and nothing more.I keep refusing to equate them because "Jewish Messiah" and "Christian Christ" have two radically different definitions. See, you don't get to overturn the JEWISH definition just because you prefer the Christian one.For some reason you refuse to equate "Messiah with Christ" as a word.
Christ = Messiah = Saviour = Jesus
You don't see ME trying to tell you that Jesus DIDN'T rise from the dead, ISN'T your Savior, or ISN'T the Son of God, do you? I'm not saying those ideas aren't TRUE: I have no warrant for that. I'm saying they aren't JEWISH ideas, because they aren't. Why is that so hard for you?
For some reason you keep ignoring all the arguments from Jewish tradition that the word "Messiah" means something other than what YOU think it means, and for some reason you keep arrogantly overruling four thousand years of Jewish teaching and tradition with no justification at all -- other than, "He is TOO the Messiah! He is, he is, he IS!"And I say He was, is, and will be all believers Messiah, Jewish or otherwise.I have said ONLY that Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah, and nothing more than that --and no one here has had anything to say in rebuttal to the reasons I have given for that FACT.
Do you suppose that's your problem or ours?
Oh, it's yours, all right. I just ask the questions. YOU'RE the one(s) who can't find answers other than "Is too!"I certainly have tried.
Is that the best you can do? Too bad. I don't think "You're wrong and I'm right!" is either an answer or an argument.
But that's what it all comes down to: Right or Wrong: The Logos/word of God or Jewish teaching.
And to say Christ Jesus is not the Messiah/Saviour/Christ of all believers is WRONG. The truth is the best argument/answer there is.
Evidence has been presented that Christ Jesus was, is, and will be the Messiah.
Your effort to deny that evidence has been noted. I think I am done with this thread. Thank you.
-
cnorman18
Post #37
In other words: Your beliefs, which are exclusionary, absolutist, and must be followed by all -- or my beliefs, which are inclusionary, flexible, and leave judgment of other faiths to God. I say, "I believe as I choose, and you believe as YOU choose" -- and you say, "I believe as I choose, and so must everyone else."YahDough wrote: But that's what it all comes down to: Right or Wrong: The Logos/word of God or Jewish teaching.
I think I'm okay with that. Just so long as we're clear.
To say that CHRIST Jesus is the CHRIST, for CHRISTIANS, is perfectly OK with me.And to say Christ Jesus is not the Messiah/Saviour/Christ of all believers is WRONG.
To say that he is the JEWISH Messiah, for JEWS, is both WRONG and ARROGANT.
See, I believe in my religion as strongly as you believe in yours; the difference is that I don't claim the right to dictate ANYONE'S proper beliefs. Not even those of other Jews, and certainly not those of Christians.
But that YOU think it to be the ONLY truth does not make it so.The truth is the best argument/answer there is.
That is a plain falsehood. NO evidence has been presented; only your OPINION.Evidence has been presented that Christ Jesus was, is, and will be the Messiah.
I have made no effort to deny ANY evidence, because you have PRESENTED none. Quotes from your holy book are not evidence, neither is your passionate belief, nor are your repeated statements of it and your foot-stamping insistence that you are right and I am wrong.Your effort to deny that evidence has been noted.
As I said: "You're just wrong, that's all" is neither answer nor argument, nor is it evidence.
Likewise -- unless someone else steps up to the plate with an actual argument or answer. .I think I am done with this thread. Thank you.
You know, I understand your desire to proclaim Jesus as your Savior; I really do.
I just don't understand why you think you have the right to declare my beliefs to be false and insist that he must be MINE.
Lastly, I note once again that your position is not necessarily an integral part of the Christian faith, as I proved a few posts ago. Among the many other points you have ignored without acknowledgment or response, you had nothing whatever to say about the official statements from several Christian denominations arguing that God's covenants with the Jews were and remain eternal and everlasting, and that God does not repent of his promises -- as the Scriptures that we both hold sacred say, and, as those statements also noted, as your Apostle Paul says as well.
Apparently you are willing to overrule and negate the beliefs of OTHER CHRISTIANS as well as those of Jews, even when your remarks contradict your own Bible.
Thanks for the attempt, though. I always find such efforts interesting, if not particularly challenging.
Be well, and peace to you.
-
cnorman18
Post #39
This thread is a discussion of why Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah. Perhaps you noticed that in the TITLE.Duvduv wrote: This thread is merely a discussion in polemics, not a discussion of corroborative evidence or lack thereof of the existence of the person called Jesus in the NT writings. That is rather unfortunate.
If you want to see "a discussion of corroborative evidence or lack thereof of the existence of the person called Jesus in the NT writings" -- start your own!
You don't get to HIJACK threads here to divert them to your own pet topics.
Post #40
Excuse me, Norman, but if one is going to discuss whether or not he was the messiah, you have to start from the point as to WHETHER he even existed, and the ONLY actually sources that suggest he existed are the NT texts themselves. That is what I was pointing out. If hijacking has occurred it is reducing the discussion about this person to a theological discussion assuming he existed without having even critically examined whether he actually existed OUTSIDE OF THE CHRISTIAN CANON and other texts in the exclusive possession of the Church libraries and monasteries.
cnorman18 wrote:This thread is a discussion of why Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah. Perhaps you noticed that in the TITLE.Duvduv wrote: This thread is merely a discussion in polemics, not a discussion of corroborative evidence or lack thereof of the existence of the person called Jesus in the NT writings. That is rather unfortunate.
If you want to see "a discussion of corroborative evidence or lack thereof of the existence of the person called Jesus in the NT writings" -- start your own!
You don't get to HIJACK threads here to divert them to your own pet topics.
