The Character of God

[PaxRomana]

My question is for Christians, and has 3 parts:

#1-I consider myself a rational and compassionate person. How could I, in good conscience, follow a God who orders his people to do the following?:

Thus says Yahweh of hosts: 'I have observed what Amalek did to Israel, how he opposed him when he went up from Egypt. So then, go and attack Amalek and utterly destroy all that is his! You must not spare him, but kill both man and woman, both child and nursing infant, both ox and sheep, both camel and donkey.'
(1 Samuel 15:2-3 LEB)

(Similar episodes of divine genocide can be found in Gen: 6, Deut: 2, 3, 7, 13, 20 & Josh: 6, 10)


#2-If God commanded you to commit an atrocity, such as murdering 'nursing infants', as he commands the ancient Hebrews in the last passage, would you obey him, and would it change your perception of his character?


3-Finally, how do you reconcile this image of a wrathful & jealous God with the impression of God one might get from reading the following verses?:

Dear friends, let us love one another, because love is from God, and everyone who loves has been fathered by God and knows God. The one who does not love does not know God, because God is love.
(1 John 4:7-8 LEB)

Love is patient, love is kind, love is not jealous, it does not boast, it does not become conceited, it does not behave dishonorably, it is not selfish, it does not become angry, it does not keep a record of wrongs, it does not rejoice at unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth, bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
(1 Corinthians 13:4-7 LEB)

[Elijah John]

I gotta really take exception with this, from post 6:

"Suffering on earth does not prove a lack of love in GOD. No innocents suffer. Only sinners suffer. No suffering is more that the person's sin has brought upon them. "

Do you really believe this, because it comes accros as really callous, maybe more so than you intended?
I think D. I. provided a great example of how some innocents suffer. Plus you seem to be disregarding Jesus own teaching on the subject:

-Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake"
-and the passage that someone was born (blind?) not for any sin he nor his parents commited, but to demonstrate the Glory of God in the healing?

-And if I'm not mistaken, the apostle Peter also admonishes folks not to incur suffering by their own sins and faults, but to bear unwarranted suffering with grace, faith and patience.

Sorry I don't have the verse references on hand, but I'm pretty sure those are Christian teachings regarding suffering.

But statements like "no innocents suffer" just feed into some negative stereotypes of Evangelical Christianity.

Part of J D Crossans teachings about Jesus (and I agree here) is that Jesus healed people's spirits by teaching them that their suffering was NOT necessarily the result of being punished for sin. And healing of the body followed too, if I remember Crossan's teaching correctly.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 9 by Elijah John]

I am not saying these morals are exclusive to philosophy or religion, they are basic principles observable in nature. Most social animals exist and use these morals within the confines of their social structures. Which is why I say it is common ore, because you dont need philosophy or religion to teach these things to you.

Just do this exercise with me, just for the sake of argument.

What would you consider the most precious diamond in the bible?

I know what you are saying, but from my perspective what seems evolutionary or common sense to you, (folks instinctively being good through the generations and across many cultures) is Divinely implanted consience, imo. From this Theist's perspective, it is the working of God's Holy Spirit within that motivates ANYONE to do good, whatever religion or no religion, whether they realize it or not.

To answer your question regarding the greatest Diamond in the Bible, I would say that Jesus nailed it when he was asked what the greatest Commandments were, and he quoted the Shema, (God is One) and then recited the two greatest commandments, to Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and to love your neighbor as yourself.

These are also in the Hebrew Bible (OT).

Or, to put it another way, "to do unto others as you would have them do unto you, that is the Law and the Prophets."

I think that is my standard to sever the Diamonds from the dung in the Bible. Whatever accords with the Two Greatest Commandments/Golden Rule are Diamonds, and whatever contradicts them is dung, imo.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 12 by Elijah John]

But do you not see how basic of a principle this is? Let us take out the morality of it for one second and include both good and bad. Say I know nothing about any religion or philosophy. If I were to punch someone would I not expect them or someone else to punch me back at some point? If I take my food and share it with a neighbor would I not expect them at some point down the road to share some food as well? To me this is just an observation of human nature. It is an observation of cause and effect. Point being is did you really need the bible to tell you this? If not why is it so great? why is this a diamond if it is such a basic observation that you can make.

it is the working of God's Holy Spirit within that motivates ANYONE to do good

I take great umbrage with this philosophy. As it takes away from what individuals do and makes individuals incapable of doing good and only capable of doing bad. So I disagree with this statement entirely.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 13 by DanieltheDragon]

Yes, I do see the survival advantage and learning curve there, but that does not exclude the natural inclination to do good. Here I differ with Fundamentalists, because I do not think humans are entirely fallen and depraved. I think we are all capable of choosing good OR bad, and that inclination to do good, is no insult to a rational Theist who believes that God is ultimately the source of all that is good. And it is certainly not meant as an insult or judgement on any atheists or agnostics either.

On the contrary, even though someone may choose to look at that as an insult, one can view it as a compliment to human nature as well. I think my position is far more inclusive than a Fundamentalist's, as it leaves room for anyone believer or not, no matter what religion or lack of religion, to follow God's will by following implanted consience, independent of dogma or orthodox belief.

But the implantation of consience still allows for free will, as I said earlier, I think we are all capable of choosing good or evil at any given moment.

So you can take umbrage if you wish, of course that is your right, but no "umbrage" intended. I simply was stating my belief that anyone who does good is following God's will, whether or not they believe or acknowledge it. As a rational Theist, I believe God judges on deeds over creeds, action and attitude (of lovingkindness) as opposed to dogmas or beliefs.

And following that, I do not expect you to believe even that, I am just explaining how I as a rational Theist sees it, my world view. I do understand and accept you have another worldview.

To make an analogous point, I am related to some Christians who mean well and tell me they believe that Jesus died for everyone, skeptics like me included, and that we are saved whether we believe it or not. Jesus purifies the stream, that we all drink from even though we do not know who cleaned the stream or how, maybe, we all benefit from the cleansing.

Now I don't believe Jesus death was an atonement, but my well meaning relatives contrary beliefs do not insult me, and nothing is put on me or expected of me. So being insulted by another's beliefs or non-beliefs are entirely up to the perception of the individual in question.

I'm not insulted by my relatives, and I hope you are not insulted by my beliefs.

I have another relative who is an atheist, a very good person, and when asked what he will think when he dies if he ends up in Heaven. He just good-naturedly relies that he would say in a pleasantly surprised tone, "well, what do you know?!"

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 14 by Elijah John]

I am not insulted by you personally. I feel that the idea that all good that is done is god's will to be insulting to the will of the individual performing said action. Although this is probably more proper for another thread and I would not want to derail the current topic.

We could discuss this perhaps in the philosophy section?

I could think of some good that would more than likely be the opposite of god's will. For example stem cell's, manipulating the genetic code, giving access for the LGBT community to have their own offspring via test tube babies etc. Depending on your theological position of course.

I could also rebel against god's laws as perscribed by the torah. Such as not killing a victim of rape that occured in a city when she did not scream out for help.

Again though this is all off topic but thats just my take on it.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 15 by DanieltheDragon]

Thanks for the clarification, also you gave me some examples that I hadn't considered. But that goes into the question of "what is good, and the definition of "good" as it relates to God's will and Bible teaching and beyond. And you are right, that would be another topic for another forum. And maybe another time.

[ttruscott]

Suffering on earth does not prove a lack of love in GOD. No innocents suffer. Only sinners suffer. No suffering is more that the person's sin has brought upon them.

This is total baloney.

...

Gimmie a break.

These kinds of excuse for this religion is utter nonsense.

...

I am speechless in the face of the eloquence of this rebuttal...you win.

[McCulloch]

I gotta really take exception with this, from post 6:

"Suffering on earth does not prove a lack of love in GOD. No innocents suffer. Only sinners suffer. No suffering is more that the person's sin has brought upon them. "

Do you really believe this, because it comes accros as really callous, maybe more so than you intended?
[...]
But statements like "no innocents suffer" just feed into some negative stereotypes of Evangelical Christianity.

I think that you missed part of what ttruscott is saying. According to him, we all had a pre-birth existence. In this now forgotten pre-birth existence, each of us freely decided to be good or to be evil. Those who chose to be evil, as a consequence of their choice are condemned to torment. Those who chose to be good, are destined to eternal bliss. But, apparently, a few of those who chose good, objected to the harshness of God's sentence on the evil ones. For that insubordination, they have been condemned to a life-time on Earth, to be redeemed by Jesus.

In that context, he is saying that all suffering in this world is justified. It has been brought on by our own choices in an existence he cannot prove or demonstrate and that we completely forget. He knows that he chose good in his pre-existence since he now has faith, a gift from God for all of the redeemed. But as things stand now, I must have decided in my pre-birth existence to be evil, even though I feel that I have a conscience and want to do good. But since God has not granted saving faith to me, I must be one of the condemned. Nothing I or anyone else can do about it.

I do have to commend his attempts to bridge the theological gap between the Calvinist and the free-will traditions with flair and imagination. All of the Calvinist arguments and scriptural references can be answered in reference to this life and the arguments against Calvinism can be answered in reference to this imaginary pre-existence. Bravo! Christian unity is at hand. This view, however, is not widely accepted in either orthodox, catholic, liberal or evangelical circles.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 18 by McCulloch]

well that certainly explains things

[ttruscott]

I gotta really take exception with this, from post 6:

"Suffering on earth does not prove a lack of love in GOD. No innocents suffer. Only sinners suffer. No suffering is more that the person's sin has brought upon them. "

Do you really believe this, because it comes accros as really callous, maybe more so than you intended?

...

IF innocents suffer like sinners, then how does that happen do we suppose?

1. GOD makes a world where the innocent are allowed to (or are predestined to) suffer putting HIM totally in charge of all the innocent suffering in the world's history? I hear that from the atheists all the time.

2. GOD allows Satan access to innocents to cause them suffering like Job because HE can't stop it or because HE won't stop it?

I contend that GOD has no use for evil nor suffering in HIS world but allowed its creation by HIS creation when HE gave us free will and so all suffering is from a true free will decision to be evil.

Either:
GOD causes our suffering.
Satan causes our suffering.
We ourselves cause our own suffering.

What is so evil about the claim we cause our own suffering by a free will choice to be sinful and paying the price which includes suffering? It allows suffering without GOD being a monster. It allows suffering without blaming someone else. It makes us responsible for our own fate...radical eh?

We all have our idols and rebelling against GOD's righteous judgement as too harsh and unloving is the idolatry that put us on earth in need of redemption from our rebellion and caused the postponement of the great and terrible day of our Lord.

These innocents you claim suffer for a specific reason - how does that prove that GOD did not choose a sinner to suffer for that particular reason? All it proves is HE told us of the reason such as persecution, not the state of innocence or non-innocence of the person...

Are you a denier of the doctrine that all are born in sin? Only if non-sinners are born on earth and start to spend time with the evil tares by HIS command can we say innocents suffer.

I do understand the emotional weight of this doctrine of GOD but commend the call to stand on the truth and not pander to the idolatry of those still in their sins and "Come out from them [idolaters] and be separate, says the Lord, 2 Corinthians 6:17. as a support for my position.

Peace, Ted