Will gays EVER be accepted by mainstream Christianity?

[KCKID]

The Mainstream Christian Church (i.e. the 'Christian Church' in general) appears to have an unshakable belief that gay people cannot possibly be Christians. Therefore gay people will always be regarded as 'lepers' because the mainstream Church believes that homosexuality is against the will of God and the actual practicing of such is a 'grave sin'. This is in spite of the fact that nowhere in the Bible is homosexuality referred to as a grave sin. This more comes from the minds of people who have received a life time of brainwashing into believing this. Where homosexual activity IS mentioned in scripture it almost always - in fact, PROBABLY always - refers to the practice of idolatry and not as WE today refer to homosexuality. There are those Christians who are so appalled at the notion that gay people might desire to integrate with 'actual Christians' within their Church community that they suggest gays start their own denomination ...minus the 'Christian' prefix, of course, which would be sacrilege. Such folks want nothing to do with homosexual people and their minds appear to be set on this.

Below is a recent item from The Guardian that tells of the plight of gay Christians in Uganda. In our particular neck of the woods (probably the majority of those of us who participate on the forum) gays have no fear of state imposed death or life imprisonment as do those in places such as Uganda. Gays do, however, have a stigma placed on them by most Christians that results in rejection by the mainstream Church and, indeed, by God himself. And, of course, the rejection of God is tantamount to death or, worse still, eternal torment. The latter makes the penalty imposed on gays in Uganda pale by comparison.

Will mainstream Christianity ever be accepting of people whose only 'sin' is that they happen to be gay ...i.e. an involuntary sexual attraction between two people of the same gender? If not, why not? Please, give your HONEST reasons.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/f ... ry-kampala

Sunday is a special day in Uganda, the conservative east African country that is threatening to put gay people behind bars for life. On Sunday you can see families flocking to churches all over the country for prayer, wearing their best clothes.

The sermons are predictable. Church leaders will pray for divine intervention against the corrupt leaders, poverty and the potholed roads, and then finally call doom upon the country's homosexuals who are sinning against the Christian God and ruining African culture.

But not at a tiny church tucked away in one of Kampala's suburbs. Here, gay people meet in devoted challenge to mainstream denominations that have declared them outcasts. With dread-locked hair and in jeans and bathroom slippers, members of this congregation would stand out in the prim and proper evangelical church I sometimes go to. I feel overdressed in my white dress.

"Here we are all about freedom," Pepe Onziema, a gay rights activist tells me. "It is a universal church. We welcome people whether gay or straight."

The gates may be open but the road to the church that calls itself a friendship and reconciliation centre is not paved with sleek cars or thronged with believers. The worshippers trickle in. They take their seats, but not before surveying the crowd furtively, trying to identify everyone. Their life depends on this vigilance.

In Uganda, police raid homes and arrest those they suspect to be gay. Homosexuality is an offence under the penal code. The president, Yoweri Museveni, refuses to pass a bill that seeks to strengthen the punishments for homosexuality to include life imprisonment, but isnt under pressure to do so. Conservative Christian churches, under the auspices of the Uganda Joint Christian Council, refuse to accept homosexuals in spite of more gay-friendly approaches from parent churches abroad. The anti-gay furnace is fanned by American evangelical churches that have made it their mission to free Africa of homosexuality, saying it is alien to African culture.

The gay Ugandan church seeks to spread an alternative gospel of love and acceptance for all. On this particular Sunday, it is the memorial of David Kato, a gay rights activist who was murdered in 2011. So the numbers are bigger than usual. When the church was started by Bishop Christopher Senyonjo (who has since been thrown out of the Anglican Church for ministering to gay people), the gay community in Uganda attended devotedly. But with arrests and growing anti-gay sentiments, threats to their lives and arrests, fewer and fewer people come to the church.

"Our numbers have reduced ever since we started in 2008," Denis, the chaplain and a primary school teacher, tells me. "It is worse now that the bill has been passed." If Denis's employees knew of his orientation or his calling, he would certainly lose his job. "This is the only place we can feel at home. Here we can worship God without feeling guilty or fearing persecution."

Joining a gay congregation in Uganda is risky but Onziema says it is necessary in a society that greatly values community. For on Sundays, when many Ugandans spend time with their families, most gay people have nowhere to go. "Coming here lets us know that we are not alone and gives us the strength to continue the struggle," Onziema says.

You can see both hope and fear in the eyes of the congregation as they read Bible verses proclaiming God's protection over them and sing "What a friend we have in Jesus".

Here, there are no thunderous shouts of praise, speaking in tongues or Bible-thumping that is characteristic of the evangelism that is so trendy in the country. In the quiet worship of Uganda's gay community, there is a still hope and the kind of courage you can only muster after you have seen it all and there is nothing left to fear. Sunday is also the day gay people in Uganda cast off their masks to chat about the latest fashion, cars and celebrities.

"You thought we were going to pray that God stops the anti-homosexuality bill," Mugisha, the head of Sexual Minorities Uganda, asks me with laughter and mischief in his voice. "It will not pass. We do not need to pray for that."

Mugisha is for a moment free from his job, his life, fighting for the basic human rights of gay people. "I come here for the community. It is better than staying home alone," he says. As the service ends, members of the congregation are asked to say something in memory of David Kato, whose spirit of resilience they will need as they walk out of the church into their daily routine.

"We know he did not die in vain," Mugisha says. "One day we shall be accepted."

[KCKID]

[Replying to post 27 by KCKID]

The Guardian?

Yeah, there's a fair and balanced conservative rag.

Why not post from the HRC?

Ploy or propaganda KID?

Wherever the article is from I think that it represents the truth of this particular situation.

[99percentatheism]

[Replying to post 27 by KCKID]

The Guardian?

Yeah, there's a fair and balanced conservative rag.

Why not post from the HRC?

Ploy or propaganda KID?

Wherever the article is from I think that it represents the truth of this particular situation.

Should I visit World Net Daily and start posting articles from that source?

How about you demonstrate how gay culture has anything in common with Christian truth?

[connermt]

[Replying to post 27 by KCKID]

The Guardian?

Yeah, there's a fair and balanced conservative rag.

Why not post from the HRC?

Ploy or propaganda KID?

Wherever the article is from I think that it represents the truth of this particular situation.

Should I visit World Net Daily and start posting articles from that source?

How about you demonstrate how gay culture has anything in common with Christian truth?

Maybe you would want to demonstrate that christianity it true and what that means first.

[Ooberman]

In my view ....

Yes, "in your view", but you are not the spokeperson for Christianity. Christian leaders are supporting active oppression against gay people.

And this is the great joke of Christianity. The individual Christian says "Hey, man, I'm all for peace and love! You can't judge Christianity by the actions of a few."

Then, when Christians start killing, they simply retreat to their living room and say "well, that's not my Christianity!" and instead of speaking out and trying to stop these people (who are, in fact, acting out the commands in the Bible), they let it happen.


Then when non-Christians (or non-abrahamic religious people) point out that Chrisitanity does, in fact, command these things, the Christians claim their religion is being attacked because of the actions of a few 'bad apples'.


Most Christians are better people than their religion requires. It's a cruel joke that Christianity then tells them they are sinners and wretched.

Then tells them to kill gays, witches, or teach children to believe in Hell so they better believe in Jesus.


There is a natural defense against introspection in cults. They can't see that the underpinning of their religion is based on fallacies and harmful beliefs. There is no method to question the wisdom of their cult founders. Moses said it, they believe it.

Then, this filters into public life. If it was kept to the home, that would be fine, but it doesn't.

Those people in Uganda are PROUD to represent the Bible so literally. They are PROUD they are oppressing gays.


There is a football player who announced he will be the first openly gay person in the NFL. Already the hate speech has begun.

Christians would destroy this man's life in the name of their religion.

[Goat]

[Replying to post 4 by Jake]

Yep, I think you are spot on. One day they will have to change or be the outcast.

As Jesus predicted, hatred of the Church is seen as something to cheer on by the world.

As it is noted above, gay authority comes from the world and it's ways "secularization" and not the Gospel.

The hostility of this thread shows the incompatible nature of the gay agenda and Christian life.

Now, when it comes ot that prediction, ti seems to me that there is something known as a 'self fulfilling prophecy'.

I note that people quite often are mirrors when it comes to how they treat people. If someone is mean and disrespectful, they are mean and disrespectful in return.

It appears to me that the antagonism against some forms of Christianity is because of the harsh, and judgmental attitude that those Christians have to others. It is not the religion itself that causes the issue, but rather the practitioners that create an atmosphere of antagonism.

These Christians are not following the advice given in the bible. It says proverbs

Proverbs 15:1
A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.

I live in a more liberal areas, where most Christians are not quite so hide bound and judgmental (there are of course exceptions). The attitude to the Christians in this area are far different than towards the fundamentalists.

Perhaps it is not the message, but how the message is delivered that is causing the issues.

[99percentatheism]

Ploy noted for what it is . . .

KCKID
Please ...let's calm down and keep this discussion civil.

After you use the label "brainwashed" in your OP?

Ever heard of the teaching about a log in ones eye?

Okay, gay people are not going away. They are a fact of life.

So are pagans and witches.

Just as heterosexuals are innately attracted to those of the opposite gender, homosexuals are innately attracted to those of the same gender.

What about those "attracted" to other deviant behaviors? They all get a congenital pass into the Church?

It's the way it is and it's really no more a biggie than the individual wants to make it.

That's a ploy.

Some heterosexuals feel the need for spiritual guidance in their lives and so they choose Christianity. Some homosexuals feel the need for spiritual guidance in their lives and so they choose Christianity. The Uganda article also indicates this.

And homosexuals should find their answers their in own interpretations. Their own denominations. There is no need to force "The Mainstream Church" to submit to an altogther foreign theology.

No matter what some non and anti Christians demand, Christian truth does not change because of the Grammy's or gay activism.

SO, with this in mind - 99percent, Wootah, and others - how can we reach an agreement where straights AND gays can eventually become united as Christians?

It is impossible for the worldly and licentious to be partners with The Church. You demand that Christians submit to the authority of adversaries. Now, secular powers may indeed take authority over people in many western countries, but that is not "working together" in The Church. That is simply the Powers and Principlaities in high places taking the rule they were prophesied to obtain. The abomination that makes desolation . . .:

And working together with Him, we also urge you not to receive the grace of God in vain" for He says,

At the acceptable time I listened to you,
And on the day of salvation I helped you.

Behold, now is the acceptable time, behold, now is the day of salvation" giving no cause for offense in anything, so that the ministry will not be discredited, but in everything commending ourselves as servants of God, in much endurance, in afflictions, in hardships, in distresses, in beatings, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labors, in sleeplessness, in hunger, in purity, in knowledge, in patience, in kindness, in the Holy Spirit, in genuine love, in the word of truth, in the power of God; by the weapons of righteousness for the right hand and the left, by glory and dishonor, by evil report and good report; regarded as deceivers and yet true; as unknown yet well-known, as dying yet behold, we live; as punished yet not put to death, as sorrowful yet always rejoicing, as poor yet making many rich, as having nothing yet possessing all things.

Our mouth has spoken freely to you, O Corinthians, our heart is opened wide. You are not restrained by us, but you are restrained in your own affections. Now in a like exchange"I speak as to children"open wide to us also.

Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever? Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said . . .,

The Apostle paul to Christians in The Church at Corinth

What IS IT that you expect from gay people? That they convert to heterosexuality?

"Gay people?" When was that propaganda ploy invented? 1960 what?

That's improbable as well as unnecessary.

So says your worldview, theology and politics.

That they remain celibate for all of their lives? Would YOU remain celibate for all of your life?

So the sexism inherant in homosexuality is OK with you?

What if bank Robbers used the same congenital excuse? What if masterbating in public was a behavior found on the DNA chain?

Are gay people tarred with a specific sinful nature that you have managed to avoid?

Celebrating sin is not something a Christian should take pride in. Using secular power and authority to force your ways to be celebrated by Christians is tyranny and persecution.

What IS IT (spell it out, for crying out loud!) that gays are to do to meet your criteria for calling themselves Christians?

The same things Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses do. Ply their other-worldly theology in their own slice of religion. What's wrong with that? (Spell that out!)

[KCKID]

[Replying to post 27 by KCKID]

The Guardian?

Yeah, there's a fair and balanced conservative rag.

Why not post from the HRC?

Ploy or propaganda KID?

Wherever the article is from I think that it represents the truth of this particular situation.

Should I visit World Net Daily and start posting articles from that source?

Sorry, I'm not familiar with that particular source. Regardless, the source of the item I presented is immaterial. Most of us know about the situation in Uganda concerning homosexuality and as to how, as the item indicates, American Evangelists have fanned the flames of bigotry and hatred in that country. Surprise, surprise . . .

How about you demonstrate how gay culture has anything in common with Christian truth?

I'm not sure what gay culture is ...sure wish that you would tell us. As for Christian truth ...what is that exactly? Like 'gay culture', you keep talking about it but I've yet to see you explain what it is. Doesn't that involve the gathering of people on Sunday (the bogus Sabbath, I might add ...speaking of 'Christian truth'!) in a church setting where they sing some worship songs, say a few prayers, listen to an oft regurgitated sermon and leave the place feeling all pious and shiny and ready to attack anyone who they believe are not 'among the elect'?

Sorry, I should take my own advice on keeping this discussion civil but I can't help myself when I'm around you, 99percent!

[99percentatheism]

Goat

[Replying to post 4 by Jake]

Yep, I think you are spot on. One day they will have to change or be the outcast.

As Jesus predicted, hatred of the Church is seen as something to cheer on by the world.

As it is noted above, gay authority comes from the world and it's ways "secularization" and not the Gospel.

The hostility of this thread shows the incompatible nature of the gay agenda and Christian life.

Now, when it comes ot that prediction, ti seems to me that there is something known as a 'self fulfilling prophecy'.

That prediction was written long, long ago. I just agree with it.

I note that people quite often are mirrors when it comes to how they treat people. If someone is mean and disrespectful, they are mean and disrespectful in return.

It's tough to be attacked without fighting back. Christians are now labled as a hate group for not wanting to clebrate gay sex. That's persecution.

It appears to me that the antagonism against some forms of Christianity is because of the harsh, and judgmental attitude that those Christians have to others.

Yup. That's how the Apostles and Jesus were treated. Being persecuted and martyred is quite the antagonism.

It is not the religion itself that causes the issue, but rather the practitioners that create an atmosphere of antagonism.

Bunk. It is the speaking of the words in The New testament that is hated. The people that speak and live out the words are persecuted. The 21st century is nothing different than the 20 others that preceded it.

These Christians are not following the advice given in the bible. It says proverbs

Proverbs 15:1
A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.

Harsh is a word that can be interpreted by evil people as anything that gets in the way of their acting out evil.

I live in a more liberal areas, where most Christians are not quite so hide bound and judgmental (there are of course exceptions). The attitude to the Christians in this area are far different than towards the fundamentalists.

Jesus in Revelation calls that "lukewarm" behavior. It is not a compliment.

Perhaps it is not the message, but how the message is delivered that is causing the issues.

Please don't suport that gay agenda. Please don't persecute The Church with gay activism.

I betting that this request gets as much mocking as any other made in a moral and honest manner. What does light have to do with darkness? At the end of the day, the original "called out ones" were Christians.

Please don't hate us for rejecting gay sex and not celebrating it and thise that desire to engage in it. That would be forcing us to affirm sin and sinners. Please don't do that to us.

Is it working? The nice request?

Let's see how history shows it:

When one of you has a grievance against another, does he dare go to law before the unrighteous instead of the saints? Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life! So if you have such cases, why do you lay them before those who have no standing in the church? I say this to your shame.

Can it be that there is no one among you wise enough to settle a dispute between the brothers, but brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers? To have lawsuits at all with one another is already a defeat for you. Why not rather suffer wrong? Why not rather be defrauded? But you yourselves wrong and defraud"even your own brothers!

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?

Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you.

But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

- The Apostle Paul to the Corinthian Christians

Please don't make us live like non and anti Christians again.

[Joab]

I think that fundy christianity can be described as the lunatic fringe.

Mainstream christianity is so far removed as to be a completely different religion.

Just my opinion.

Filed in O accordingly. Just after "only."

Labeling Christians that follow the historic beliefs of Jesus and the Apostles is perseution. Filed in P for persecution.

How do you know what jesus ever said or taught?
You have stories written by people who never mat jesus and certainly could not have recorded anything he said.

Can you remember anything someone said 30yrs ago verbatim?

[99percentatheism]

KCKID

So you are unwilling to be as nice as Mormons and Jehovahs Witnesses?

Of course.

[Replying to post 27 by KCKID]

The Guardian?

Yeah, there's a fair and balanced conservative rag.

Why not post from the HRC?

Ploy or propaganda KID?

Wherever the article is from I think that it represents the truth of this particular situation.

Should I visit World Net Daily and start posting articles from that source?

Sorry, I'm not familiar with that particular source. Regardless, the source of the item I presented is immaterial.

Noted. And I'll hold you to that.

Most of us know about the situation in Uganda concerning homosexuality and as to how, as the item indicates, American Evangelists have fanned the flames of bigotry and hatred in that country. Surprise, surprise . . .

hate and bigotry for preaching the Gospel.

Your opinion and position is duly noted. I'm sure Nero and his gay partners held a similar point of view. And we know what Nero did to Christians.

The incompatible nature of gay culture to Christian truth can never change.

How about you demonstrate how gay culture has anything in common with Christian truth?

I'm not sure what gay culture is ...sure wish that you would tell us.

Isn't it interesting that I have more knowledge of this issue than you do? Now who's brainwashed again?

Queer theory is a real subject matter. Lesbian feminsim and gay "heterosexism" are real issues.

As for Christian truth ...what is that exactly? Like 'gay culture', you keep talking about it but I've yet to see you explain what it is.

You are bearing false witness against me. You and I have been at this for a long time and many, many, many, many threads.

Doesn't that involve the gathering of people on Sunday (the bogus Sabbath, I might add ...speaking of 'Christian truth'!)

Sunday is the first day of the week. NOT the sabbath. You don't know Christian history either I see. But I knew that already.

. . . in a church setting where they sing some worship songs, say a few prayers, listen to an oft regurgitated sermon and leave the place feeling all pious and shiny and ready to attack anyone who they believe are not 'among the elect'?

Propaganda duly noted. Evangelicals pouring out of a Mega Church don't cause fear in anyone. They are heading to lunch or to home. But people sneaking INTO The Chruch and causing unrest are certainly the bad guys. As Jude points out perfectly. And we are still contending against those that change truth into a license for immorality the Church even now. And, it's not the conservaitve Evangelicals doing that as we both know.

Sorry, I should take my own advice on keeping this discussion civil but I can't help myself when I'm around you, 99percent!

I like you where I can see you for what you are. Don't hide your nature or intentions on my account. I know what you desire all too well. There is never going to be a time when we have anything in common theologically. I know why you can't be happy founding your own religious movement and having all your gay pals promoting their pride there.

You keep to your mission and I will keep defending the Gospel against it. "Contending for the faith" as it were.