Is the Real "god" of the Bible.....Satan?

[ElCodeMonkey]

[Replying to post 1 by Master Spade]

I tried postulating this idea once before (not too long ago, actually) but I don't think it came across as well as the way you explained it. I completely agree. Well put. Ultimate deception indeed!

[postroad]

Sure. There is even textual support. Two identical stories except for one difference.

2 Samuel 24:1
[ David Enrolls the Fighting Men ] Again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.�

1 Chronicles 21:1
[ David Counts the Fighting Men ] Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel.

Satan has authority to grant Jesus earthly kingdoms.

Matthew 4:8-9

New International Version (NIV)


8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,� he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.�

Jesus concedes that the devil is the prince of this world this world. and that Christ's kingdom is from another place.

John 12:31
Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out.

John 14:30
I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me,

John 16:11
and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

John 18:36
Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.�

Paul makes a case against the Law being a product in part of dark forces combined with human traditions.

Colossians 2

New International Version (NIV)


2 I want you to know how hard I am contending for you and for those at Laodicea, and for all who have not met me personally. 2 My goal is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4 I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments. 5 For though I am absent from you in body, I am present with you in spirit and delight to see how disciplined you are and how firm your faith in Christ is.

Spiritual Fullness in Christ

6 So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live your lives in him, 7 rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.

8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces[a] of this world rather than on Christ.

9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10 and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority. 11 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by[c] Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you[d] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.[e]

Freedom From Human Rules

16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind. 19 They have lost connection with the head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

20 Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules: 21 “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!�? 22 These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings. 23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

[ttruscott]

GOD allows everyone to believe what they want and lets Satan's teachers interpret the scriptures their own way:

Wouldn't that be the Ultimate Deception?

With all those stories of how this "god" is a Jealous god, how he KILLS and commands us to Kill, with stories of how to sell your daughter as a Sex Slave, to name only a few of the Disgusting things this "god" is responsible for, doesn't it sound more like this "god" is really Satan? Wouldn't that be the Ultimate Deception? To deceive everyone with Religion, and keep them in the dark?

...

YHWH is not these things the way they are interpreted:
HE is not jealous like a human.
HE does not kill and order us to kill as if it were murder.
HE does not condone selling your daughter as a sex slave,

to name a few of the deceptions of Satan about YHWH.

[connermt]

Wouldn't that be the Ultimate Deception?

With all those stories of how this "god" is a Jealous god, how he KILLS and commands us to Kill, with stories of how to sell your daughter as a Sex Slave, to name only a few of the Disgusting things this "god" is responsible for, doesn't it sound more like this "god" is really Satan? Wouldn't that be the Ultimate Deception? To deceive everyone with Religion, and keep them in the dark?

Just think, the only people that wouldn't want us to know:

- the whole truth,
- and not want us asking questions
- and believe with just BLIND Faith

would be Deceivers! Things like Pedophiles, Murderers, the HUMANS that invented Religion/Gods, and basically Satan(if you believe in Super Beings)! People like that would want us in the Dark, and demand that we Believe ..........without ANY Proof! They would also demand that we ask No Questions, and continue to believe with just BLIND Faith. These are the things that religions Demand!

If you read the bible without your Jesus goggles, doesn't it make more sense that something like Satan himself is the "God" of the Bible? Just think, why wouldn't the "God" of the Bible want us to eat of the tree of "Knowledge"?? Why would that god not want us to know Good from Evil...............unless HE IS THE EVIL! He didn't want us informed because we would realize that HE is the true Evil!!

That story of the tree of "Knowledge" sounds like something The Humans that invented Religion/Gods would invent and use to try to Scare humans with! FEAR KNOWLEDGE! Their reasoning: "For if our god had wanted you to know, he would of given us this knowledge already!".

Religion was basically made by someone like Satan(Deceivers)......to have people worship him/them, or end up in the "Lake of Fire" for all Eternity! To do that, he/they would need us to be Dumb! Religions want their followers to be Uninformed. They want, and even NEED their followers to be as Uninformed as Possible. Only then can religion thrive.

If it's possible to agree 110% I would. Well said!
After all, if we're told "god is good" and "not to question god" and "we can't do anything about it", what else would we think?!?
We all like to think "good is the best and will triumph over evil" but that's what we're told, not what evidence seems to indicate.
Looking around and we can see this "good > evil" isn't entirely true

[postroad]

GOD allows everyone to believe what they want and lets Satan's teachers interpret the scriptures their own way:

Wouldn't that be the Ultimate Deception?

With all those stories of how this "god" is a Jealous god, how he KILLS and commands us to Kill, with stories of how to sell your daughter as a Sex Slave, to name only a few of the Disgusting things this "god" is responsible for, doesn't it sound more like this "god" is really Satan? Wouldn't that be the Ultimate Deception? To deceive everyone with Religion, and keep them in the dark?

...

YHWH is not these things the way they are interpreted:
HE is not jealous like a human.
HE does not kill and order us to kill as if it were murder.
HE does not condone selling your daughter as a sex slave,

to name a few of the deceptions of Satan about YHWH.

Did YHWH order this?

Numbers 31:17-18

New International Version (NIV)


17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

Of course all the men had already been killed. Now it was the turn for all male children and babies to be disposed of along with their mothers.

Imagine the slaughter if this is the amount of virgins left over?

35 and 32,000 women who had never slept with a man.

[Ooberman]

Neither God nor Satan exists to write a Bible. There are cases to be made that the God of the Bible is created by evil men, but let's stay in reality.

[Elijah John]

Neither God nor Satan exists to write a Bible. There are cases to be made that the God of the Bible is created by evil men, but let's stay in reality.

I wouldn't say evil men, but primitive, with a primitive sometimes savage worldview. And parts of that outlook certainly color their interpretation of their encounter with the Divine. I think they were primitive but relatively enlightened and evolving people who wrote the Bible. Compared to some of their contemporaries, their neighbors, they were enlightened by comparison.

If the Hebrew God is portrayed as "jealous" I would say that if there IS One, universal Creator and Sustainer God, then the term "jealosy" is a human term ascribed to God's desire for His people, and untimately ALL people to avoid evil, dead idol gods, and have a loving relationship with the One true God, for their own good, not necessarily for His. It is not so much a cultural exclusivity, but a theological one.

Present day Judaism is illustrative of this. Even Orthodox Jews do not believe that it is necessary for anyone to convert to Judaism to be "saved" (or have a "share in the world to come") but only that one avoids idolatry (Baal worship would be one example of idolatry that pretty much does not exist anymore) and is a "righteous Gentile". This in stark contrast to Fundamentalist Christianity or Fundamentalist Islam which DO teach that one must adhere to their respective dogmas to be saved.

[ElCodeMonkey]

Sure. There is even textual support. Two identical stories except for one difference.

2 Samuel 24:1
[ David Enrolls the Fighting Men ] Again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.�

1 Chronicles 21:1
[ David Counts the Fighting Men ] Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel.

Now THAT is awesome. I'm definitely storing this tidbit to memory!

[ElCodeMonkey]

Sure. There is even textual support. Two identical stories except for one difference.

2 Samuel 24:1
[ David Enrolls the Fighting Men ] Again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.�

1 Chronicles 21:1
[ David Counts the Fighting Men ] Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel.

Now THAT is awesome. I'm definitely storing this tidbit to memory!

lol. I figured someone had to have a workaround. This is the best they could come up with? Apparently the word "incite" now means "allowed to be incited" because they didn't have a better way to word it as far back as in Samuel yet suddenly gained the capability in Chronicles. People will always believe what they want to believe.

Short answer: Satan did. Today in theology we often talk about the “active� and “passive� or more frequently “active� and “permissive� will of God. To say God allows something to take place, we recognize, is not the same thing as saying God is the one who directly causes it to occur. God actively redeems his people because he permitted them to sin of their own volition. The Ancient Hebrew mindset, it seems, did not account for such a strong distinction. It seems they would have been able to recognize the difference if they talked about it (hence the distinction that was made by the (later) writer of Chronicles), but nothing in their language could directly account for this. In either case, it remains that the two passages in juxtaposition make clear that Satan directly tempted David, David freely chose to give into this temptation, and that God allowed it all to come about because he was sovereign over the entire situation.