The Christian Response to Homosexuality

[micatala]

Many Christians consider homosexual practices to be immoral. The forum has multiple threads which include arguments as to whether or not homosexuality should be considered immoral, and even whether this position is supported Biblically.

In this thread, we will take it is a given that homosexuality is immoral.

Under this assumption, what should the response of Christians be to the existence of homosexuality? How should we interact with or treat persons who are homosexuals?

In terms of political society, what sort of laws should Christians support with respect to homosexuality? If there is to be unequal treatment of homosexuals under the law, what is the Biblical basis for this?


Again, arguments concerning the morality of homosexuality are not relevant to the thread. What is relevant is discussion of the possible Christian responses to homosexuality, and what valid rationale there are for these responses.

[melikio]

The key folks, is not paying so much attention to those who TALK "good", but imitating those who DO good.

If homosexuality is not "good" (in your heart and mind) then don't DO it (yourself). By the same token, if one believes that treating homosexual people "badly" as they have often been is a good thing, I'd like to see where the Bible supports that.

Then, I'd like to see most specifically, what the Bible actually "encourages" behaviorally, as it relates to dealing with homosexuals and/or other sinners.

You see, one thing I have absolute certitude about is that some who believe they are doing "good" (in God's name) really aren't. And the same grace that keep them from being worthy of death (where they stand), is the SAME grace that can deal gently with homosexual people period. I've seen it from "Christians" and I seen some withold such grace (due to their own perceptions or religious beliefs).

I hope that with God's influence, the honest and open thinkers and many Christians continue this conversation; I believe it will get closer to the heart of the matter (in due time). To me, one of the most important questions about homosexuality (in Christendom and civil law) DOES eventually boil down to the premise of this thread.

How should "Christian" people actually "treat" homosexuals?

-Mel-

[melikio]

I did quote from Galatians Ch. 5, and wanted to clarify what I was certainly getting at in a broad sense.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... AMP-29186g

In the context of this thread, I believe there is a lot that the whole chapter 5 of Galatians says, which instructs an open-minded Christian (and others) well in what behaviors are generally acceptable or specifically "Christian".

I certainly don't see where the "behaviors" encouraged there, say anything about giving homosexuals a particularly hard time. It can be discussed that "self-control" is important, but it doesn't call for delivering the typical TON of bricks which many Christians seem eager to dump onto many homosexual people.

And today, I don't think many Christian should be so surprized that a few homosexual people have become strong enough to hurl some of those "bricks" back at them. I don't think God intended for Christians to be "enforcers" of morality (as some have decided to take on that role); I believe God intended Christians to set a moral "example" and influence others by that method.

That is why many CAN indeed see something wrong with a religious, socail and/or politcal philosophy which seeks to control "sinners", rather than influence them via the same "...love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, and self-control..." mentioned in chapter 5 of Galatians.

The real components of godly LOVE are not difficult to recognize. They are delivered in "context", not lacking in making itself known to those who are receiving it; yes, even those who are "homosexual".

-Mel-

[Joe Blackbird]

Looks like I need to repent here...

Easyrider and any other Christians reading and posting here, I do apologize for being sarcastic in this thread...

Wow.

(Luke 6:27-38) "But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. To one who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also, and from one who takes away your cloak do not withhold your tunic either. Give to everyone who begs from you, and from one who takes away your goods do not demand them back. And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them.

"If you love those who love you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who do good to you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to get back the same amount. But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil. Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.

"Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven; give, and it will be given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For with the measure you use it will be measured back to you."

[1John2_26]

The key folks, is not paying so much attention to those who TALK "good", but imitating those who DO good.

Follow the lead of people that remained virgins until they married people of the opposite sex, stayed faithful to each other through years of "marriage," and let those people be the leadership in Christian Churches. Even with the dreadful numbers of divorces in society at large, 50% means there are a lot of good role models to promote into leadership.

If homosexuality is not "good" (in your heart and mind) then don't DO it (yourself).

No Christian should allow the youth within the Church to be poisoned by hedonism, lascivious licentiousness, or sexual perversion. Jesus issues a dire warning to people that wilfully lead children astray:

Matthew 18:6
But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

Review: Matthew 18:5-7 (in Context) Matthew 18 (Whole Chapter)

Mark 9:42
[ Causing to Sin ] "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck.

Review: Mark 9:41-43 (in Context) Mark 9 (Whole Chapter)

Luke 17:2
It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin.

By the same token, if one believes that treating homosexual people "badly" as they have often been is a good thing, I'd like to see where the Bible supports that.

In the Old Testament or the New Testament? Also, how many homosexuals have been treated "badly" in America over the last two-hundred years?

Then, I'd like to see most specifically, what the Bible actually "encourages" behaviorally, as it relates to dealing with homosexuals and/or other sinners.

Paul in Romans and Corinthians is a good place to find your answers.

Romans 8:4
in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

Review Romans 8:3-5 (in Context) Romans 8 (Whole Chapter)

Romans 8:5
Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.

Review: Romans 8:4-6 (in Context) Romans 8 (Whole Chapter)

Romans 8:6
The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace;

Review: Romans 8:5-7 (in Context) Romans 8 (Whole Chapter)

Romans 8:9
You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

Review: Romans 8:8-10 (in Context) Romans 8 (Whole Chapter)

You see, one thing I have absolute certitude about is that some who believe they are doing "good" (in God's name) really aren't. And the same grace that keep them from being worthy of death (where they stand), is the SAME grace that can deal gently with homosexual people period. I've seen it from "Christians" and I seen some withold such grace (due to their own perceptions or religious beliefs).

Romans 3:

5But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) 6Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? 7Someone might argue, "If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?" 8Why not sayas we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved.

I hope that with God's influence, the honest and open thinkers and many Christians continue this conversation; I believe it will get closer to the heart of the matter (in due time). To me, one of the most important questions about homosexuality (in Christendom and civil law) DOES eventually boil down to the premise of this thread.

How should "Christian" people actually "treat" homosexuals?

Will it be the homosexualization of Christianity? Or, the Christianizing of homosexuality?

1 Corinthians 6:

9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified,you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

So:

18 Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

[1John2_26]

What about someone other than Paul for The Christian response to Homosexuality?

Jude 1
1 Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James,
To those who have been called, who are loved by God the Father and kept by Jesus Christ:

2 Mercy, peace and love be yours in abundance.

The sin and doom of Godless men

3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints.

4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own homethese he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.

7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

8 In the very same way, these dreamers pollute their own bodies, reject authority and slander celestial beings. 9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" 10 Yet these men speak abusively against whatever they do not understand; and what things they do understand by instinct, like unreasoning animalsthese are the very things that destroy them.

11Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam's error; they have been destroyed in Korah's rebellion.

12 These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualmshepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprootedtwice dead. 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

[melikio]

Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints.

Well, if being a homosexual means I can't be in true contention for the "faith" or be saved by the blood of Jesus, then there is no hope for me in that particular "Christianity".

Then again, can't answer for every heart/mind dealing with sin; and no, I don't know my own heart any better than God, and certainly no one participating here knows it better than I do.

That being said, I ask (as I frequently have):
"How is it, that "Christians" should be treating homosexual people?"

We agree (for the purposes of this topic) that homosexuality is "wrong". Now, let's get on with describing (even to a societal level), what should be done for, with and about homosexual people (if anything). What does the Bible actually support, and how should Christians apply those teachings?

The question is profound, and it is pertinent; the author of this thread gets every KUDO I can muster in my heart. (It's an excellent switch, to an old and beaten topic.)

-Mel-

[1John2_26]

This is where "casting pearls before swine," takes on its reality. That is not sarcasm, that is what Jesus was talking about. We Christians cannot place holiness in front of the unbelievers and expect them to know what to do. (Off-topic example given below, because of the direct connection to AU.org and homosexuality.)

1John2_26 wrote:
Quote:

Looks like I need to repent here...

Easyrider and any other Christians reading and posting here, I do apologize for being sarcastic in this thread...

Wow.

(Luke 6:27-38) "But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. To one who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also, and from one who takes away your cloak do not withhold your tunic either. Give to everyone who begs from you, and from one who takes away your goods do not demand them back. And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them.

The Christian Response to Homosexuality is then to recognize homosexuals as those that are our enemies? And try to do good to them anyway? Keep trying to urge them away from homosexuality would be the consistent and "good" message of the New Testament.

"If you love those who love you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who do good to you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners do the same.

Romans 1:

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualitieshis eternal power and divine naturehave been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creatorwho is forever praised. Amen.

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

Christians do indeed need to remember who our enemies are and to still reach out to them no differently than we are now and always have. We must ignore the threats of the progressive-liberals to have us arrested in hate crimes laws and just try to reach these lost souls. Our suffering persecution from liberals and secularists, will bring immense joy to those that we save.

And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you?

Homosexuls and their supporters need us though they despise us and I'm certain that they know this seeing who is using Biblical texts now.

Even sinners lend to sinners, to get back the same amount. But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil. Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.

How many millions and millions of starving children are hurting people are being fed and clothed right now by Christians. The Christian help organizations are indeed many. And many Christians have been killed trying to feed and clothe peoples that hate them. Voice of the Martyrs does indeed speak of Christians peacefully helping people and being tormented for doping it.

"Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven; give, and it will be given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For with the measure you use it will be measured back to you."

And as we have seen "now" even homosexuals are desiring Evangelicalism.

You cannot hide the Light under a basket or from Liberal/Progressive/Secular legislation designed to stamp out the voice of God and God's Church.

Let us pray for those that hate us so loudly within the Gay Culture and Community; the Liberal, Secular and Progresive movements; and of course the incredible hatred leveled against Christians by those calling themselves Secularists; running down and eliminating Christians from the public and social setting . . . that they will see the immense greatness of embracing love through Christ Jesus and repenting and becoming a "Christian."

So that those even in prison where homosexuality is so prevelent and harms so many, may hear the Good News!

We must remeber that Satan can masquerade as an angel of light or a Reverend running Americans United for Seperation of Church and State . . . As we pray for our enemies let us never forget to pray for Barry Lynn.

For example, while we have people becoming better citizens and rejecting a life of crime and victimization, and rejecting homosexuality within prison walls through becoming Christians some (like homosexual groups Soulforce) liberals and secularists see this as not a good thing:

Federal Court Strikes Down Tax Funding of Iowa Prison Program
Saturday, June 3, 2006

Ruling Is A Sharp Rebuke To President George W. Bush's 'Faith-Based' Initiative

A federal court today struck down an evangelical Christian program operating in an Iowa state prison, a ruling Americans United hailed as a serious blow to President George W. Bushs "faith-based" initiative.

U.S. District Judge Robert W. Pratt ordered an end to the InnerChange Freedom Initiative, a sectarian program sponsored by Charles W. Colsons Prison Fellowship Ministries. Pratt also ordered that InnerChange reimburse the state of Iowa more than $1.5 million.

Pratt ruled that the program clearly violates church-state separation by promoting evangelical Christianity at state expense.

"For all practical purposes, the state has literally established an Evangelical Christian congregation within the walls of one its penal institutions, giving the leaders of that congregation, i.e., InnerChange employees, authority to control the spiritual, emotional, and physical lives of hundreds of Iowa inmates," wrote Pratt. "There are no adequate safeguards present, nor could there be, to ensure that state funds are not being directly spent to indoctrinate Iowa inmates."

Elsewhere Pratt observed, "The level of religious indoctrination supported by state funds and other state support in this case in comparison to other programs treated in the case lawis extraordinary."

Americans United Executive Director Barry W. Lynn hailed the ruling. Lynn noted that President George W. Bush has supported Prison Fellowship and other forms of tax funding of religion under his so-called "faith-based" initiative.

"There is no way to interpret this decision as anything but a body blow to so-called faith-based initiatives," Lynn said. "Tax funds cannot underwrite conversion efforts."

Continued Lynn, "The bottom line is government has no business paying for religious indoctrination and conversion programs in prisons or any other tax-funded institution."

Lynn said in light of this ruling, religious leaders need to be especially wary of the pitfalls of government funding. He noted that InnerChange has been ordered to repay the funds it spent for a program that the court said should have been recognized as unconstitutional.

"Church leaders who take faith-based funding may find that theyve made an expensive misjudgment if their faith-based funding is challenged," Lynn said.

Americans United sponsored the litigation in the Americans United for Separation of Church and State v. Prison Fellowship Ministries case. The legal challenge, brought on behalf of several inmates at Newton Correctional Facility and their families, was argued by Senior Litigation Counsel Alex Luchenitser.

Luchenitser noted that InnerChange inmates received special benefits solely because they were willing to submit to the type of Christian evangelism promoted by Prison Fellowship.

"The government has no business treating some inmates better than others on the basis of religious belief," Luchenitser said.

Luchenitser noted that InnerChange inmates received special benefits solely because they were willing to submit to the type of Christian evangelism promoted by Prison Fellowship.

Christ Jesus is just as illegal to our enemies now as he was before and after the Cross. Let us never forget that. And let us pray for those enemies.

The demons oppressing Barry Lynn should be the targets of many prayers of faithful Christians. I hope and pray that the prison inmates that have changed their lives from lawless to Christ jesus will pray for this evil and wicked man.

As we have seen from the New Testament that is what Christians should. Though it may seem as discomforting to anti-Christians to be called evil, the truth can only set them free. And clearly we Christians are called to pray for our enemies that are as real as the lawsuit attacking inmates for wanting to be Christians, and youth in Colleges to pursue a Godly education without being tormented by their enemies at their doors.

The Christian Response to Homosexuality should be no different than it is towards any of our enemies.

Pray for them and do good to them even though they hate us.

[melikio]

This is where "casting pearls before swine," takes on its reality. That is not sarcasm, that is what Jesus was talking about. We Christians cannot place holiness in front of the unbelievers and expect them to know what to do.

Either people "follow", or they do not follow; Christians do not need to be attempting to "control" others (especially those who are not truly committed in the same way, that someone who believes might be).

Contend for "faith", should not be synonymous with quest for "power".

Let the "swine" be "swine", and live for Jesus as you might. Something has to be left to God, and just maybe one of those things is homosexual people.

-Mel-

[1John2_26]

Quote:
This is where "casting pearls before swine," takes on its reality. That is not sarcasm, that is what Jesus was talking about. We Christians cannot place holiness in front of the unbelievers and expect them to know what to do.

Either people "follow", or they do not follow; Christians do not need to be attempting to "control" others (especially those who are not truly committed in the same way, that someone who believes might be).

The Gay Agenda and Gay Evangelicalism shows that gays and lesbians are NOT committed "in the sme way." They are indeed forcing Christians to be in subjugation of homosexuality and have implemented that by secular laws (so how can they be trusted?) and those that demand to teach and preach it as acceptable and celebrated within the Christian culture and community have no right or justification to do so. That is a major issue.

Contend for "faith", should not be synonymous with quest for "power".

No it is not the quest for power . . . it is defending Christian brothers and sisters from Satan.

Let the "swine" be "swine", and live for Jesus as you might. Something has to be left to God, and just maybe one of those things is homosexual people.

There is much excitment to seeing the homosexuality community drawing near a form of Christianity. The Gay Culture cannot survive intact in the Christian Community. There will be many lost souls saved out of a lifestyle so far from holiness and brought into a walk with the Holiness of Christ Jesus. Nothing shoud oppose that. But, being wary and on-guard of the influence of Gay Culture must never ever be forgotten even for a moment by mature Christians.

Quote:
Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints.

Well, if being a homosexual means I can't be in true contention for the "faith" or be saved by the blood of Jesus, then there is no hope for me in that particular "Christianity".

Your view here cannot be supported from the writings of Paul in the New Testament. He holds out a welcoming to homosexuals to a life in Christ after leaving their life of homosexuality. The other letters of the New Testament invite just as many people to become Christians. There is ONLY hope in Christ Jesus and the assurity of Promise.

Then again, can't answer for every heart/mind dealing with sin; and no, I don't know my own heart any better than God, and certainly no one participating here knows it better than I do.

Well said.

That being said, I ask (as I frequently have):
"How is it, that "Christians" should be treating homosexual people?"

On an individual basis. The Gay Community is just people, the Gay Culture is incompatible with Christians living for Christ Jesus as the New Testament would prove. It is darkness that cannot find light. The Gay Community is welcomed in any Christ preaching Church holding salvation in no other Name.

We agree (for the purposes of this topic) that homosexuality is "wrong".

And so does the entire Bible. "It" is one of many unacceptable practices.

Now, let's get on with describing (even to a societal level), what should be done for, with and about homosexual people (if anything). What does the Bible actually support, and how should Christians apply those teachings?

Society is secular. On the Biblical level, the homosexual must take a position of membership within a well-founded and orthodox Church and only be offered leadership or authority over other Christians when clearly refutating (repenting of) homosexuality as a practice acceptable for Christians. Every Christian used to be a sinner and indeed never leaves that category as the flesh is weak.

The question is profound, and it is pertinent; the author of this thread gets every KUDO I can muster in my heart. (It's an excellent switch, to an old and beaten topic.)

Then present "how" and "why" Christians should respond to homosexuality AND therefore "to" homosexuals?

Is it the homosexualization of Christians and the Gospel, or the Christians changing homosexuals by the Gospel?

This is a profound thread I'll agree with that.

[melikio]

http://www.radicalcongruency.com/ec04/campolo1.mpg

http://www.radicalcongruency.com/ec04/campolo2.mpg

http://www.radicalcongruency.com/ec04/campolo3.mpg

Although not the message in its entirety, Dr. Campolo offers some important thoughts on a/the Christian response to homosexual people.

For me, it's worth noting that I saw things this way, long before I ever knew of Campolo's comments on the matter.

He emphasizes the problem of being anti-human toward those people who are homosexual. And interestingly, he gives some insightful background on human sexuality overall.

I think people should have a more complete understanding of the scientific aspects of human sexuality. And having Christians trained in the social effects they perpetuate is worth examining as well.

I'm sure there are other Christians who understand things as Campolo does, but I think his view is one of the most logical ones out here.

-Mel-