What is TRUE "Free Will"?

[1213]

[Replying to post 1 by Master Spade]

In my opinion true free will means that you can choose what you want freely. It does not mean that you can always get what you want or even that you should know all things.

And I think God has given us enough information to make right decisions.

[Jashwell]

Could you give a proper definition of free will?

It's an incredibly nebulous concept, my position on the existence of which varies depending on the definition of it.
Some times it's either so libertarian it doesn't exist or is purely random or so ill-defined it's self refuting.

With regard to whether or not God revealing himself somehow infringes upon free will:

Does it infringe your free will when someone you've never seen before walks into a room, justifying belief in their existence?

On the problem of evil:
Do the police infringe the free will of the criminals, or just the will of them?
Isn't the criminal infringing the victim's free will?

In my opinion true free will means that you can choose what you want freely.

What does 'choosing freely' mean? Try avoiding using words that are are part of the name or are synonymous with the word you're defining

[ttruscott]

.


The subject of "Free Will" comes up often when debating "god". It usually comes up when something bad happens, and the theist will say that the person is at fault and caused the bad thing to happen through "Free Will". It is somehow never "god's" fault.

So I ask: Can we have True Free Will, without Knowing All the Information??

Making a decision without all of the information is a Blind Guess! Would a Loving "God" have us make a Blind Decision that will affect us for ALL of Eternity? How is that Just?? Why would a loving god possibly do that?? Please at least try to answer these questions in an Honest way.

Now for My Definition of what True Free Will is:

Having True Free Will would be:

1. Giving ALL the information that can possibly be given. With All the information, that person can think about what he/she wants, and THEN would be able to make that INFORMED Decision.

Agreed. True free will must be informed or it is not a true choice but a guess. All info must be shared, especially regarding the natural consequences of making the choice, unless the choice has no consequences.

2. Presenting that information so everyone could Easily Understand that information. That is something a "God" could EASILY do. One has to ask, why didn't this happen?

What is your proof it did not happen? Earthly life?

I look at the need for true free will and recognize it is not available on earth but rather than claim either or both GOD or free will must therefore be a fantasy, I looked for a time where we might of had our true free will and found it quite easily in a pre-earth existence in the spirit world (sheol) before the creation of the physical universe.

In a telepathic society of pure spirits, all ingenuously innocent, it would be easy, as you say, for GOD to provide us all with all of the necessary info to make a true choice (not a guess) about whether HE was GOD or not. OF course, you missed the fact that if HE gave proof of HIS divinity, our choice would be coerced by that proof and no one would ever choose against HIM...who would try to elevate themselves above or against the proven GOD?

3. ZERO CONSEQUENCE!!!! If we are punished for the choices we make, then that would NOT be True "Free Will"! That would be like someone holding a Gun to your head and saying: "Do what I say or DIE!" Is that "True" Free Will!?? I say no!
No matter what we decided with all the Information, we would NOT be punished either way. There would be NO punishment for either choice!

FREE means without coercion:
We can understand the nature of the consequences without being afraid of them or their being a coercion. IF the consequence forces us to choose a certain way it is as you say not a free choice any more than proof of HIS divinity would allow us a free choice about HIS divinity.

I really doubt it happened with us all lining up and GOD making HIS demands for us to believe or die... a rather biased and somewhat juvenile speculation which you properly reject.

Rather as we grew in self and other awareness after our creation and formed bonds and histories with other, we came to understand that there was a GOD claiming to be our creator but without proof and we should come into HIS purpose for our creation, that is, heaven, by our free will choice to accept HIM as GOD or reject HIM as our GOD and become HIS eternal enemy with some disastrous consequences.

Telling someone that if they go out of the house into the jungle at night they will be killed by a tiger does not coerce them to believe in the tiger nor the inevitability of death. In the safety of our houses, that is, in a place with no proof of tigers or even death, we can consider the source of the tiger stories as trustworthy or not, whether the content of the warning of the story is believable and whether the impulse that makes us want to go out at night anyway is enough to have us take the chance against all warning.

So I contend your zero consequence is of no consequence to our true free will decisions since no proof of the consequences was given at the time of warning but only after all decisions were finalized. Rather than "no consequences" I'd suggest, "no coercion by proving the consequences" since it is not the consequences themselves that destroy our free will but the coercion provided if they were proven.

This might be hard to figure out as it denies all our experience here on earth but this is the way I think it happened. That people forget their pre-earth life as they forget their earliest days of life on earth has clouded our thinking so we believe we were created on earth as humans.

And rather than no consequences, I contend that knowing all possible consequences of our choices as a MUST as part of the all knowledge you rightly claimed to be necessary.

[short rant deleted]

With all the Information presented from this "God", there would EVERY kind of Evidence:

Visual and Verbal - He would actually Appear in front of all of us. He would appear, tell us ALL the Information about everything.

Here you have put forth the confusion between evidence and proof. GOD gives us evidence but withholds the proof of HIS divinity. Why? Because GOD wanted us to choose without proof because we hoped all HE said was true.

2 verses are important:
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance / essence of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen, , that is, unproven, 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
and
2 Corinthians 5:7 For we live by faith, not by sight, that is, proof.

The only reason to make a true free will decision to put our faith in GOD is our hope HE IS GOD and will reward our faith, our hope without proof. Proof destroys hope: Romans 8:24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen, that is proven, is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? so if proof happens before we choose to put our faith in HIM proof will coerce our choice to believe and it will not be by our true free will. He wants faith without proof of HIS divinity as proof of our free will since proof of HIS divinity destroys free will.


This discussion is about the nature of faith and proof before our choice in sheol and not about our lives on earth where we obviously are coerced (no free will) at every hand. But HE sees fit to continue HIS policy of faith over proof even here on earth and that is why HE does not appear and make HIS commands known, though we have forgotten both the impulse of faith and the proof HE did give us by the creation before our eyes of the physical universe.

People act as it this is something Impossible! A real god appearing to us, should be a common sense thing, not seen as some type of Miracle! This should be an Easy thing for an All Powerful "Loving" god to do! Why do religious people constantly convince themselves that it's better if this Does NOT happen!??

What Christians think is impossible is not HIS appearance but that the reports we give of HIS work and leading within us is not just ignored as impossible but slandered as fantasy. We all look forward to the appearance of our LORD from heaven.

So I ask,

1. Can we have True "Free Will" without having ALL the Information?

NO. But we did have all knowledge, we just don't remember.

2. Why wouldn't a Loving "god" want us to make an Informed Decision?? Why aren't we given True Free Will!??

Answered: We did have all knowledge at the time of our choice but do not remember.

3. Can you explain WHY a "Loving god" would want us ignorant and confused about him? Why would he have us make an Uninformed Decision that will effect us for All of Eternity!??

Faith, not proof, defines the self, the deepest desires of the heart, what you want if you were in charge, (or some better way of saying it), while leaving the hope based faith totally free, without coercion, and limited only by the imagination.

That is why faith based decisions with no proof such as believing in a reality without god, or in many gods, or in ONE TRUE GOD, or even that we are god, have all developed, not from ignorance and confusion...

That is why faith is so important to GOD in HIS search for loving communion with a created spirit. GOD let everyone choose by faith, ie a hope without proof, by a true free will choice, their future reality with HIM and we all self chose our own destiny by faith.

We live our lives here on earth for a different reason than to make a true free will decision to have faith in HIM or to reject HIM as that was all finished before the foundation of the world and all our getting faith here on earth is called a return to HIM in whom we already put our faith, as, like the prodigal son or the sheep gone astray, we rebelled and became sinful.

Peace, Ted

[ttruscott]

Could you give a proper definition of free will?

...

Proper? I can give my definition that is based upon / implied from the Christian principles of the Bible:

All FREE means is uncoerced...

IF GOD set it up so HIS new creation had no coercion or constraints upon their choices, forcing them to choose anything, they had free will.

The Elements of a True Free Will Choice:

1. Free will can't be coerced:
Nothing in their created nature could FORCE them to choose love or hate, good or evil, including all genetics...(therefore it can't happen on earth).

Nothing in their experience could FORCE them to choose love or hate, good or evil, including all earthly cultural or familial experience...

Nothing in their understanding or knowledge of reality could FORCE them to choose good or evil, love or hate.

In other words, they had to be completely and truly ingenuously innocent.
[Ref: definition of ingenuous: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ingenuousness as: 1. Lacking in cunning, guile, worldliness; artless. 2. Openly straightforward or frank; candid.

2. Consequences must be known but not proved:
The person must understand the full consequences of their choice or it is a guess, not a true choice. What will happen if I choose left or right, the red pill or the blue pill? must be answered in full detail.

But "PROOF" of the nature of the consequence would compel or coerce the person to choose what was proven to be the best for them. If the answer death here, life there, was proven, which would you choose? The weight of knowledge would destroy the free of the "free" will choice.

If it were proven you would die if you went left, are you truly free to choose to go right? No, you are forced by your knowledge to go right. Therefore they must know, but without proof, the nature of the consequences of their choice.

Peace, Ted

[connermt]

[Replying to post 1 by Master Spade]

Can we have True Free Will, without Knowing All the Information??

Yes, but it's not responsible for a controlling able deity to all punishment and not having full disclosure. That's an action expected of a spoiled child.

Why wouldn't a Loving "god" want us to make an Informed Decision??

Maybe because we couldn't understand with all the knowledge. Which leads to the next question of why let us think there's more that we could handle to begin with. It's also (more?) likely that there's something this deity is hiding. What is it and why? Maybe that it isn't the loving god we've made it over the decades?
[quote[Can you explain WHY a "Loving god" would want us ignorant and confused about him?[/quote] See above.

[postroad]

Did the Israelites in the desert make a free will commitment to the covenant and its conditions for themselves and their descendants?

Did the descendants have free will to be born under the Law?

[dianaiad]

Could you give a proper definition of free will?

It's an incredibly nebulous concept, my position on the existence of which varies depending on the definition of it.
Some times it's either so libertarian it doesn't exist or is purely random or so ill-defined it's self refuting.

With regard to whether or not God revealing himself somehow infringes upon free will:

Does it infringe your free will when someone you've never seen before walks into a room, justifying belief in their existence?

On the problem of evil:
Do the police infringe the free will of the criminals, or just the will of them?
Isn't the criminal infringing the victim's free will?

In my opinion true free will means that you can choose what you want freely.

What does 'choosing freely' mean? Try avoiding using words that are are part of the name or are synonymous with the word you're defining

It's not all that nebulous...free will is the ability to choose between available options. It does not mean 'free to do anything one can imagine and a few things one cannot, without consequences."

As in...one is quite free to choose which side of the fence to walk on, when looking at a fenced off cliff. However, if one chooses to walk on the cliff side of the fence, then one is also choosing to do without the protection of that fence, and therefore choosing the possible consequence of falling off.

One may not be able to flap one's arms fast enough to fly...but one is certainly able to try.

Women who choose to have sex are also choosing the possible consequences of that action, positive or negative.

If one is tied to a post, blindfolded and awaiting the firing squad, one STILL has free will: eyes open or shut, what one says...what one thinks. There is always a choice between one action, or thought, and another. That is 'free will.'

As to whether one must have 'all the information' before one can make a choice...bushwah. If the choices are available, and one can actually, physically make that choice, then it's free will. The consequences of that choice may be so horrendous that making it would be a psychological breaker, but...

For instance, if someone had your children at home strapped to a bomb, and you were told that if you didn't rob a bank, that the bomb would be set off, nobody would blame you for robbing the bank. You might be arrested, but never tried and certainly never convicted; however, you could still refuse to rob the bank. In that case most everybody would consider that choice to be the evil one...but it is one you could make.

In fact, I would say that having consequences attached to choices is proof that we have free will; if we didn't, would it matter what our choices would cause?

[ttruscott]

Did the Israelites in the desert make a free will commitment to the covenant and its conditions for themselves and their descendants?

Did the descendants have free will to be born under the Law?

Maybe you missed that not all Christians who believe in our free will believe we experience it here on earth where our lives are predestined to HIS redemptive purpose.

Peace, Ted

[postroad]

Did the Israelites in the desert make a free will commitment to the covenant and its conditions for themselves and their descendants?

Did the descendants have free will to be born under the Law?

Maybe you missed that not all Christians who believe in our free will believe we experience it here on earth where our lives are predestined to HIS redemptive purpose.

Peace, Ted

I see that you got the point.