Fine Tuning

[UNBeliever905]

I wanted to discuss this topic after watching an intelligence squared debate quite awhile ago and again while reading the head to head debate between OSTENG and NENB.

Now the "Fine Tuning" of the universe, theory is "the proposition that the conditions that allow life in the Universe can only occur when certain universal fundamental physical constants lie within a very narrow range, so that if any of several fundamental constants were only slightly different, the Universe would be unlikely to be conducive to the establishment and development of matter, astronomical structures, elemental diversity, or life as it is understood."

Now in this case i would argue, that the theory itself is not as important as why it is believed. It is believed because people who have a preexisting belief in a designer, see the actual fact that if certain things in our universe were different we, and this is the important bit, AS WE ARE HERE AND NOW could not be here. Now they see this fact and say "Well if there is no God, WHY is the universe perfect for us". Admittedly a slightly reductionist version of the argument but i dont think it misrepresents it honestly. My point is can a believer in fine tuning tell me why me thinking a god of the gaps argument based on a pointless question is an acceptable argument in an intelligent conversation?

[arian]

Here is what we know. We exist in a universe with certain physical constants. We know that if any of these constants were changed a small amount, the resulting universe would not be stable and could not have produced life.

Imagine that there is a huge dark sheet which represents all conceivable combinations of these fundamental constants. Our universe represents a small pin hole in that sheet. Now imagine being on one side of that sheet and observing light passing through that pin hole. There are two possible explanations for this. The first is that there is some highly precise intelligent being on the other side who directed an extremely narrow beam of light exactly at that pin hole. The second would be that there is a general source of light on the other side and some light passed through the pin hole. Which conclusion would you think is more likely?

First, who created the 'dark sheet' that is able to manufacture all conceivable combinations of fundamental constants?
Who made the small pinhole in the sheet?
Why is there something on the 'other side' of the sheet that was able to shine a light, .. an extremely narrow beam of light exactly at that pin hole?

[McCulloch]

Here is what we know. We exist in a universe with certain physical constants. We know that if any of these constants were changed a small amount, the resulting universe would not be stable and could not have produced life.

Imagine that there is a huge dark sheet which represents all conceivable combinations of these fundamental constants. Our universe represents a small pin hole in that sheet. Now imagine being on one side of that sheet and observing light passing through that pin hole. There are two possible explanations for this. The first is that there is some highly precise intelligent being on the other side who directed an extremely narrow beam of light exactly at that pin hole. The second would be that there is a general source of light on the other side and some light passed through the pin hole. Which conclusion would you think is more likely?

First, who created the 'dark sheet' that is able to manufacture all conceivable combinations of fundamental constants?
Who made the small pinhole in the sheet?
Why is there something on the 'other side' of the sheet that was able to shine a light, .. an extremely narrow beam of light exactly at that pin hole?

It is an analogy. The huge dark sheet represents all of the mathematically possible combinations of constants that there could possibly be. The pin hole (or pin holes) represent the one or more combination of these constants that yield a stable universe. In this analogy, seeing the universe that we have, the creationists conclude that there must have been a uber precise intelligent God on the other side of the sheet who created a universe to precise specifications (like shining a narrow beam through a pin hole). A non-theist interpretation would be that there are lots of universes, and most of them are not stable and did not continue to exist. This is an analogy that shows that just because there is apparent fine tuning for the universe, it is not necessary to conclude an ultra precise intelligent designer.

[mgb]

[Replying to UNBeliever905]

The fine tuning argument shows that the energy (spirit) of the universe condensed in such a fine tuned way as to enable stars, oak trees, dolphins and life to emerge.

This could only have happened if the energy of the universe had certain qualities. It has those qualities and we are here. This is the miracle.

[Mr. LongView]

Without god, I feel comfortable saying that life is a crazy thing...

Good luck making this ball of wax fly again....

Fine tuning?
Seems pretty fine to me.

[arian]

Here is what we know. We exist in a universe with certain physical constants. We know that if any of these constants were changed a small amount, the resulting universe would not be stable and could not have produced life.

Imagine that there is a huge dark sheet which represents all conceivable combinations of these fundamental constants. Our universe represents a small pin hole in that sheet. Now imagine being on one side of that sheet and observing light passing through that pin hole. There are two possible explanations for this. The first is that there is some highly precise intelligent being on the other side who directed an extremely narrow beam of light exactly at that pin hole. The second would be that there is a general source of light on the other side and some light passed through the pin hole. Which conclusion would you think is more likely?

First, who created the 'dark sheet' that is able to manufacture all conceivable combinations of fundamental constants?
Who made the small pinhole in the sheet?
Why is there something on the 'other side' of the sheet that was able to shine a light, .. an extremely narrow beam of light exactly at that pin hole?

It is an analogy. The huge dark sheet represents all of the mathematically possible combinations of constants that there could possibly be.

No, .. it represents a 'dark sheet' and that's it. The 'All of the mathematically possible combinations of constants that there could possibly be' would be the universe as we know it, so why the need for a dark sheet?

The pin hole (or pin holes) represent the one or more combination of these constants that yield a stable universe. In this analogy, seeing the universe that we have, the creationists conclude that there must have been a uber precise intelligent God on the other side of the sheet who created a universe to precise specifications (like shining a narrow beam through a pin hole). A non-theist interpretation would be that there are lots of universes, and most of them are not stable and did not continue to exist. This is an analogy that shows that just because there is apparent fine tuning for the universe, it is not necessary to conclude an ultra precise intelligent designer.

A Believer sees we have a universe, and we didn't make it, we didn't see a Big-bang, we see planets, stars, birds, monkeys and us men. We ask WHO made them all?

Unbelievers see multiverses, a blank sheet FILLIED with all possibilities (??). They see one animal species evolving into another over billions of years, etc. and demand that NO ONE made any of them, but that the already existing possibilities on a blank sheet created them. Fine tuning needs someone intelligent to fine tune it, the blank sheet even with all the possibilities already there will not do it.

If you take a jar full of 'all possibilities' and shake it (not just let it sit there), how long do you think it would take to get a Big-bang that creates a universe with life on one of its planets? Then how long would it take for a jar full of all possibilities to create a universe, .. without shaking it? (Remember the Big-bang creates space-time)

So we have to pick the most probable, ID or the sheet with all the probabilities but no one does anything with it. We have to ask; Can 'probabilities' actually create something?

[Hatuey]

The majority of the universe....the VAST majority is VOID. Even if there is life somewhere in the vicinity of EVERY star in existence (Impossible? probably) the universe is about voids...nothing. And the voids are getting larger and more prominent and "taking over" through expansion/dark energy.

If this universe is "fine tuned" for life, then my body was "fine tuned" for that one nearly invisible hangnail I had for two days when I was eleven.

[otseng]

The places in the sheet without holes represents the many potential universes that would not be stable. We have determined mathematically that there are no pin holes close to our pin hole. But we don't know if there may be other pin holes elsewhere. Would anyone like to perform the calculations with 26 variables? Ours may not be the only possible universe.

What strikes me is that all these other universes are posited to exist, yet there is no evidence for their existence. What grounds do you have to believe that they exist if no independent evidence exists that there are other universes?

[otseng]

The majority of the universe....the VAST majority is VOID. Even if there is life somewhere in the vicinity of EVERY star in existence (Impossible? probably) the universe is about voids...nothing. And the voids are getting larger and more prominent and "taking over" through expansion/dark energy.

Actually, I would go so far as to say that it is so fine-tuned that life only exists on earth. And as far as we know, there is no evidence of any life elsewhere.

[Goat]

The places in the sheet without holes represents the many potential universes that would not be stable. We have determined mathematically that there are no pin holes close to our pin hole. But we don't know if there may be other pin holes elsewhere. Would anyone like to perform the calculations with 26 variables? Ours may not be the only possible universe.

What strikes me is that all these other universes are posited to exist, yet there is no evidence for their existence. What grounds do you have to believe that they exist if no independent evidence exists that there are other universes?

We do not know... however, that is what the math implies. However, it could just be a mathematical construction.. and that's just ok too.

[Jashwell]

The places in the sheet without holes represents the many potential universes that would not be stable. We have determined mathematically that there are no pin holes close to our pin hole. But we don't know if there may be other pin holes elsewhere. Would anyone like to perform the calculations with 26 variables? Ours may not be the only possible universe.

What strikes me is that all these other universes are posited to exist, yet there is no evidence for their existence. What grounds do you have to believe that they exist if no independent evidence exists that there are other universes?

We do not know... however, that is what the math implies. However, it could just be a mathematical construction.. and that's just ok too.

Not just that, but a multiverse might be a simpler hypothesis than a universe.
A single universe requires speculating that this Universe is special/unique, a multiverse doesn't.

Generally, when we see things in nature, they rarely occur once.

A multiverse would also be the proper answer to fine tuning. Not intent. We have no reason to posit intent, as we have no reason to posit that an agent is involved. The preferred solution (by simplicity of its presuppositions) is a multiverse.
So if there was fine tuning it could well be evidence of a multiverse.