What a waste

[Zzyzx]

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Ancient cultures devoted large amounts of time and resources to worshiping their "gods", sacrificed food and animals (even people), built palaces and temples of worship, etc. It would seem as though using that time and the resources to better the lot of common people would have been more appropriate.

Are modern societies doing the same thing?

[Ooberman]

"Youth is wasted on the Young" can be modified to "Time (or Life) is wasted on the Living"

[1213]

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Ancient cultures devoted large amounts of time and resources to worshiping their "gods", sacrificed food and animals (even people), built palaces and temples of worship, etc. It would seem as though using that time and the resources to better the lot of common people would have been more appropriate.

Are modern societies doing the same thing?

Interesting question, I can’t answer, because I don’t know how “waste� is defined in this. It seems to me that all that is from this world will be destroyed eventually and is wasted. I don’t think any natural things lasts, so why bother doing anything?

[Ooberman]

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Ancient cultures devoted large amounts of time and resources to worshiping their "gods", sacrificed food and animals (even people), built palaces and temples of worship, etc. It would seem as though using that time and the resources to better the lot of common people would have been more appropriate.

Are modern societies doing the same thing?

Interesting question, I can’t answer, because I don’t know how “waste� is defined in this. It seems to me that all that is from this world will be destroyed eventually and is wasted. I don’t think any natural things lasts, so why bother doing anything?

Why bother? Because you might want to. Isn't that enough?

You can sit and wait to die if you want, but I choose to look around while I can.

[dianaiad]

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Ancient cultures devoted large amounts of time and resources to worshiping their "gods", sacrificed food and animals (even people), built palaces and temples of worship, etc. It would seem as though using that time and the resources to better the lot of common people would have been more appropriate.

Are modern societies doing the same thing?

Was it indeed a waste of time, Zzyzx? When you consider that the majority of the ancient buildings that have stood the test of time have been religious, that nothing got people together to accomplish something amazing quite like religion did (obviously...just how many of our ancient monuments, buildings, statues, etc., were NOT religious in nature?).

Whether there is a God or not, it seems that humans did more for the idea of one than almost any culture managed without that idea. Yes, we have the Great Wall of China...maybe Hadrian's wall, perhaps the Roman amphitheaters...other than those? The pyramids, the cathedrals, Stone henge, the temples; these far outnumber any purely non-religious monument or building in our ancient set of accomplishments.

So....without a God, or religion, or the idea of one, would mankind have accomplished as much?

I think that the evidence is fairly compelling; people have been around a very long time now, with a whole bunch of different cultures, languages, philosophies, etc. There have been opportunities for atheistic cultures to arise, flourish and build--but none have. You really don't want to point to the officially atheistic nations of the twentieth century as positive role models, I'm sure.

As far as whether 'modern societies' are 'doing the same thing,' I sure hope so. Given that the majority of charitable organizations which actually help people who need it happen to be religious, I would hope that religion sticks around.

Given that the finest art works in history have been, generally, religiously themed, I hope it sticks around.

Given that religion, in general, prompts believers to behave themselves and treat others well--the Golden Rule seems to be ubiquitous--I hope it sticks around.

A waste?

I'd say no, it's not been a waste, even if it turned out that God doesn't exist. Of course, I think He does, but then that's my 'problem,' not yours.

[connermt]

[Replying to post 14 by dianaiad]

...without a God, or religion, or the idea of one, would mankind have accomplished as much?

Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe more.
Knowledge would probably have progressed quicker - no church to hold back thinkers
There would probably be a lot more books - little to no book burning
More people - less wars less birth control (though the world doesn't need more people)
Nicer people - less people arguing over stupid things.
Belief can make people do a lot of stupid things.

[dianaiad]

[Replying to post 14 by dianaiad]

...without a God, or religion, or the idea of one, would mankind have accomplished as much?

Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe more.
Knowledge would probably have progressed quicker - no church to hold back thinkers
There would probably be a lot more books - little to no book burning
More people - less wars less birth control (though the world doesn't need more people)
Nicer people - less people arguing over stupid things.
Belief can make people do a lot of stupid things.

WOULD there have been all that? Here's the problem with your theory: in all the history of the planet, not one atheistic, religion-less culture has arisen and left behind any advanced buildings, monuments or writings. Not one.

Indeed, in the written history of the world, it turns out that the only officially atheist cultures and people were, er....less than positive about advancement in either arts, humanitarianism or sciences, and were, indeed, far more prone to burning books (and people, come to think) than any officially theist society.

You would think, wouldn't you, that if a culture without religion could have produced wonders, that a culture without religion would have, by now?


The point is, we may not know whether one could...but we do know that one hasn't. "Imagine" if it has ever been tried, didn't leave anything behind to tell us how well it did.

[connermt]

[Replying to post 16 by dianaiad]

WOULD there have been all that?

Probably.

...in all the history of the planet, not one atheistic, religion-less culture has arisen and left behind any advanced buildings, monuments or writings. Not one.

Never said they did. But good for you for pointing out something that has little to nothing to do with what I said. Brava!

... it turns out that the only officially atheist cultures and people were, er....less than positive about advancement in either arts, humanitarianism or sciences...

Imagination is the genesis of creativity. It takes a lot of 'wanting' to imagine a deity. It's no suprise, then, that gods follow creativity.

...far more prone to burning books (and people, come to think) than any officially theist society.

You say this to justify the terrible acts of the people of YOUR faith and YOUR god: well THEY did it more than WE did so it's OK that WE did it.
The typical 'christian quantity' retort
Pitiful

You would think, wouldn't you, that if a culture without religion could have produced wonders, that a culture without religion would have, by now?

You and your wonders.... Keep on truckin' with 'em

The point is, we may not know whether one could...but we do know that one hasn't.

That's YOUR point - thanks for sharing - again.

[otseng]

Knowledge would probably have progressed quicker - no church to hold back thinkers
There would probably be a lot more books - little to no book burning

I think these were the exception rather than the norm. Actually, Christianity was instrumental in the rise of modern science. Without Christianity, it would've probably taken longer for modern science to have arisen.

[Joab]

[Replying to post 14 by dianaiad]

...without a God, or religion, or the idea of one, would mankind have accomplished as much?

Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe more.
Knowledge would probably have progressed quicker - no church to hold back thinkers
There would probably be a lot more books - little to no book burning
More people - less wars less birth control (though the world doesn't need more people)
Nicer people - less people arguing over stupid things.
Belief can make people do a lot of stupid things.

WOULD there have been all that? Here's the problem with your theory: in all the history of the planet, not one atheistic, religion-less culture has arisen and left behind any advanced buildings, monuments or writings. Not one.

Indeed, in the written history of the world, it turns out that the only officially atheist cultures and people were, er....less than positive about advancement in either arts, humanitarianism or sciences, and were, indeed, far more prone to burning books (and people, come to think) than any officially theist society.

You would think, wouldn't you, that if a culture without religion could have produced wonders, that a culture without religion would have, by now?


The point is, we may not know whether one could...but we do know that one hasn't. "Imagine" if it has ever been tried, didn't leave anything behind to tell us how well it did.

Can you name even one atheist culture?

[dianaiad]

[Replying to post 14 by dianaiad]

...without a God, or religion, or the idea of one, would mankind have accomplished as much?

Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe more.
Knowledge would probably have progressed quicker - no church to hold back thinkers
There would probably be a lot more books - little to no book burning
More people - less wars less birth control (though the world doesn't need more people)
Nicer people - less people arguing over stupid things.
Belief can make people do a lot of stupid things.

WOULD there have been all that? Here's the problem with your theory: in all the history of the planet, not one atheistic, religion-less culture has arisen and left behind any advanced buildings, monuments or writings. Not one.

Indeed, in the written history of the world, it turns out that the only officially atheist cultures and people were, er....less than positive about advancement in either arts, humanitarianism or sciences, and were, indeed, far more prone to burning books (and people, come to think) than any officially theist society.

You would think, wouldn't you, that if a culture without religion could have produced wonders, that a culture without religion would have, by now?


The point is, we may not know whether one could...but we do know that one hasn't. "Imagine" if it has ever been tried, didn't leave anything behind to tell us how well it did.

Can you name even one atheist culture?

Officially atheist?

Where 'there will be absolutely no religion" is the officially supported ideal?
I can, actually. They didn't last all that long, but the damage they did was, er, extensive.

On the other hand, those societies attempted to impose the 'no religion' rule from the top down. So, if you are asking if I knew of any societies where atheism was taught by parents to their children for generations...no.

But then, I think that tells us something about how 'wasteful' religion is. After all, if there have been any atheistic societies....naturally atheistic societies....then we have absolutely no evidence of them. They have left no monuments, no books, no manuscripts, no philosophies, no scientific advancements, nothing. Now that's a waste.

As to the 'top down' societies, well....we've only had a few of those, and every single one of them left us stuff; destruction and murder, actually, by the job lots.

Now me, I'm for a secular society, where religion and atheism exist together, where everybody can believe, or not believe, as they wish, and allow imagination and creativity full reign.

A theocracy may slow things down. Maybe...though we have a great deal of evidence that theocracies (or at least, one-religion societies) leave us some amazing things. However, given that we have absolutely no evidence that a...perhaps we can call it a 'culturally atheist,' as opposed to a 'politically atheist' society, so let's call it a culturally atheistic society...has ever existed, much less contributed in any way to philosophy or science, I think that it is, well, unlikely that a completely atheistic society would be all that wonderfully, er, wonderful.

So your question is appropriate. I guess I can't name even one 'atheist culture,' just nations where atheism was an important part of the politics.

Now doesn't THAT cause a problem for those who think that atheistic societies would be 'all that?'