? A Question For All Former Christians Who Fell Away ?

[YahDough]

This is a question addressed only to former Christians who have left the faith.

Why did you become a Christian?
[/b]

[Hatuey]

This OP was directed to former Christians who left the faith. It doesn't sound like you were ever a believer.

Of course that doesn't mean you aren't able to reject the truth as a result of thinking for yourself. On the contrary, I think it proves it. Thanks

Incorrect. I was a believer. More than you can imagine, probably. I rejected the lie of Christianity because I saw that it was a lie and not the truth. If the god of Christianity were true, I would believe it, regardless of how disgusting it obviously is. (For example, we cannot imagine a more evil being than one that would allow a place of fiery torture and slaughter women and children in a flood; therefore, no being is more evil than the god of the bible).

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to YahDough]

That didn't answer the question. We are talking about the search for truth here. If the truth is rejected, regardless of an extensive self-justified inquiry process, to what good end has "free thinking" for oneself accomplished? You should have just answered NO. Rejecting the truth is NOT a good way to think for oneself.

You BEGIN with the assumption that the Bible represents all truth and that therefore you hold all truth in your hand. End of search.

That's not true. I do not consider the Bible error free.

That makes YOU the personal arbitrator of which parts are valid and which parts you do not consider valid. That's a very important job, and again, places all truth in your own hands. How could I possibly consider myself a free thinker when I so knowingly reject such an obvious and unchallengeable source of truth? My original point is that you have never searched for truth beyond the religious reality you were born into. Which is true for most religious people.

This illogical doctrine, for example. Being omniscient God created Satan with perfect foreknowledge of exactly what the result would be, down to the smallest detail. And being omnipotent God got exactly the result that He intended to get. Whatever Satan does it is because God intended it to be so. Anything else would mean that God FAILED to achieve His intended result. This logical conundrum, that God is omnipotent, omniscient and created all things including Satan, and yet was somehow betrayed by Satan and therefore has no connection to or responsibility for the activities of Satan, is one of the most obvious and blatant contradictions in Christian doctrine.

That is not doctrine. That is dogma. You know the difference?

God is fully omnipotent and omniscient, is the creator of all things, but has no connection to nor responsibility for Satan and his evil. This is doctrine for many, if not most Christian denominations. But you know better of course, because you are God's personal arbitrator of Biblical truth on Earth.

Did you really think that non believers have rejected this stuff just to be petulant?

I'm pretty sure that is one of the reasons.

Is there any petulance whatsoever in your rejection of the story of Santa and his team of flying reindeer? Or are there other reasons why you choose not to believe the story?

[YahDough]

This OP was directed to former Christians who left the faith. It doesn't sound like you were ever a believer.

Of course that doesn't mean you aren't able to reject the truth as a result of thinking for yourself. On the contrary, I think it proves it. Thanks

Incorrect. I was a believer. More than you can imagine, probably.

It doesn't sound like it and I have a pretty active imagination.

I have noticed a lot of people blame God to justify themselves and their own sins. Do you understand that concept?
Were you baptised and filled with the Holy Ghost?

[Hatuey]

It doesn't sound like it and I have a pretty active imagination.

What my story "sounds like" to you is of no interest to me. I believed fervently for most of my life. Let me put it this way, if you had known me--lived with me every second of every day, you would not have doubted that I was a believer.

I have noticed a lot of people blame God to justify themselves and their own sins. Do you understand that concept?

Not really. I blame god as much as I appreciate Santa: Not at all. It would be stupid to blame or appreciate beings who only exist in imagination.

Were you baptised and filled with the Holy Ghost?

No, because the Holy Ghost does not exist and never has existed; I firmly believed I was "baptized and filled," though, and you would have too, if you had known me and lived every second of your life with me.

[YahDough]

[Replying to YahDough]

That didn't answer the question. We are talking about the search for truth here. If the truth is rejected, regardless of an extensive self-justified inquiry process, to what good end has "free thinking" for oneself accomplished? You should have just answered NO. Rejecting the truth is NOT a good way to think for oneself.

You BEGIN with the assumption that the Bible represents all truth and that therefore you hold all truth in your hand. End of search.

That's not true. I do not consider the Bible error free.

That makes YOU the personal arbitrator of which parts are valid and which parts you do not consider valid.

No..it makes the Holy Ghost/Teacher an important Person in the discernment process.

That's a very important job, and again, places all truth in your own hands.

Yes. Believers have access to that "Teacher" of truth.

How could I possibly consider myself a free thinker when I so knowingly reject such an obvious and unchallengeable source of truth?

You can "challenge" the Source of truth. I suspect you will learn something or lose.

My original point is that you have never searched for truth beyond the religious reality you were born into. Which is true for most religious people.

That's not true about my life. We talked about this before. Actually I think I spent a lot of my life avoiding the truth. The Truth found me.

This illogical doctrine, for example. Being omniscient God created Satan with perfect foreknowledge of exactly what the result would be, down to the smallest detail. And being omnipotent God got exactly the result that He intended to get. Whatever Satan does it is because God intended it to be so. Anything else would mean that God FAILED to achieve His intended result. This logical conundrum, that God is omnipotent, omniscient and created all things including Satan, and yet was somehow betrayed by Satan and therefore has no connection to or responsibility for the activities of Satan, is one of the most obvious and blatant contradictions in Christian doctrine.

That is not doctrine. That is dogma. You know the difference?

God is fully omnipotent and omniscient, is the creator of all things, but has no connection to nor responsibility for Satan and his evil. This is doctrine for many, if not most Christian denominations.

In the book of Job Satan appears to be the prosecutor for God who is "hired" to dig up dirt on Job. Satan was in attendance of God's council for that assignment. That would contradict any teaching that Satan is outside the command/influence of God.

Did you really think that non believers have rejected this stuff just to be petulant?

I'm pretty sure that is one of the reasons.

Is there any petulance whatsoever in your rejection of the story of Santa and his team of flying reindeer? Or are there other reasons why you choose not to believe the story?

No. Besides, I don't "reject" the story. I just don't believe it.

[cnorman18]

Speaking for myself only -- I was born into a Christian family, and that accounts for my being a Christian in the first place. My religion was always the center of my life, and still is.

I did not "fall away" from Christianity; and since I do not say and have never said that Christianity is "false" or "wrong," I don't think that that would be an accurate characterization of my conversion to Judaism. I sometimes say that I never really left Christianity -- I just went to work for the parent firm. Jesus himself was, after all, a Jew.

I regard Christianity as a perfectly valid and honorable religion. It is no longer my own. That's all.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to YahDough]

That makes YOU the personal arbitrator of which parts are valid and which parts you do not consider valid.

No..it makes the Holy Ghost/Teacher an important Person in the discernment process.

And YOU of course are the conduit through which the "Holy Ghost/Teacher" makes His wishes known. That DOES make you a man very special among men, doesn't it?

That's a very important job, and again, places all truth in your own hands.

Yes. Believers have access to that "Teacher" of truth.

Not all of the other conduits, those who claim belief, are getting it right though, are they? If truth be told, MOST of them are not. Isn't that true? Which makes your special access to the "Holy Ghost/Teacher" even more crucial to the task of getting out the "real truth" to the world, does it not? You are just getting specialler and specialler.

How could I possibly consider myself a free thinker when I so knowingly reject such an obvious and unchallengeable source of truth?

You can "challenge" the Source of truth. I suspect you will learn something or lose.

The "Source of truth" as channeled, through you, correct? Channel away. I'm listening.

My original point is that you have never searched for truth beyond the religious reality you were born into. Which is true for most religious people.

That's not true about my life. We talked about this before. Actually I think I spent a lot of my life avoiding the truth. The Truth found me.

And where will that leave the rest of us when another truth finds you in a few year's time and you move on to something else? Have you EVER fully and completely rejected the existence of God?

God is fully omnipotent and omniscient, is the creator of all things, but has no connection to nor responsibility for Satan and his evil. This is doctrine for many, if not most Christian denominations.

In the book of Job Satan appears to be the prosecutor for God who is "hired" to dig up dirt on Job. Satan was in attendance of God's council for that assignment. That would contradict any teaching that Satan is outside the command/influence of God.

This also firmly establishes that Satan is one of God's minions, doing God's will. In what way does that insulate God from being the true source of all evil, just as He is the true source of everything else?

Is there any petulance whatsoever in your rejection of the story of Santa and his team of flying reindeer? Or are there other reasons why you choose not to believe the story?

No. Besides, I don't "reject" the story. I just don't believe it.

There you go! You are not being petulant in choosing not to believe in flying reindeer and a toy shop full of elves and so on, are you? You don't believe these things because the story simply violates all reason and common sense. In EXACTLY the same way that stories of the flying reanimated corpse of Jesus, hordes of the dead rising from their graves found in Matt. 27, and various other stories found in the Bible violate all reason and common sense. There is no petulance to be found in not believing in obvious make believe, is there!

[YahDough]

[Replying to YahDough]

God is fully omnipotent and omniscient, is the creator of all things, but has no connection to nor responsibility for Satan and his evil. This is doctrine for many, if not most Christian denominations.

In the book of Job Satan appears to be the prosecutor for God who is "hired" to dig up dirt on Job. Satan was in attendance of God's council for that assignment. That would contradict any teaching that Satan is outside the command/influence of God.

This also firmly establishes that Satan is one of God's minions, doing God's will. In what way does that insulate God from being the true source of all evil, just as He is the true source of everything else?

It doesn't. GOD is the Source of everything. But I think it should be established that evil was probably originally established by the LORD to be disobedience to the will of God. So just as the sins of man were evil in the eyes of God so the vengeance of God may be perceived as evil in the sight of man.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to YahDough]

It doesn't. GOD is the Source of everything. But I think it should be established that evil was probably originally established by the LORD to be disobedience to the will of God. So just as the sins of man were evil in the eyes of God so the vengeance of God may be perceived as evil in the sight of man.

So... God is just as capable of evil as He is love. And if God chooses to send his minion Satan out into the world to spread evil, then there is really no difference between Satan and God at all, is there! Satan is simply God's alter ego; God in a Satan mask. And although Adam and Eve were given complete free will, there never was any chance that they would NOT fall, just as God always knew they would, is there? God intended for Adam and Eve to fall into this state of sin when He created them, and God got exactly the result He intended to get, just as He surely must. All of these conclusions flow inexorably, one from the other. And of course the only possible way to atone for sin of this magnitude is through the shedding of blood. And not just any blood. For this much sin the shedding of Holy Blood is required. Why? GOD'S PLAN...GOD'S RULES! This required God to come to Earth in the form of a man, and so to die in agony and shed His Holy Blood to wash away the sins that humankind were created to fall into in the first place. But only those who choose to believe in this entire story on faith will be forgiven and ultimately be saved. The rest of humankind is screwed for all eternity. Now, I admit that am confused here. Is this doctrine, or is it dogma? Because otherwise I might very well mistake it for the stuff the comes from the south end of a northward walking bull. This story makes the flying team of reindeer story seem almost plausible. Almost.

[YahDough]

[Replying to YahDough]

It doesn't. GOD is the Source of everything. But I think it should be established that evil was probably originally established by the LORD to be disobedience to the will of God. So just as the sins of man were evil in the eyes of God so the vengeance of God may be perceived as evil in the sight of man.

So... God is just as capable of evil as He is love. And if God chooses to send his minion Satan out into the world to spread evil, then there is really no difference between Satan and God at all, is there!

Except God chose to send His Son into the world to redeem (from evil) those who would believe in Him. So there is a difference.

Satan is simply God's alter ego; God in a Satan mask. And although Adam and Eve were given complete free will, there never was any chance that they would NOT fall, just as God always knew they would, is there? God intended for Adam and Eve to fall into this state of sin when He created them, and God got exactly the result He intended to get, just as He surely must. All of these conclusions flow inexorably, one from the other. And of course the only possible way to atone for sin of this magnitude is through the shedding of blood.
And not just any blood. For this much sin the shedding of Holy Blood is required. Why? GOD'S PLAN...GOD'S RULES! This required God to come to Earth in the form of a man, and so to die in agony and shed His Holy Blood to wash away the sins that humankind were created to fall into in the first place. But only those who choose to believe in this entire story on faith will be forgiven and ultimately be saved. The rest of humankind is screwed for all eternity.

I think that's a cynically simplified but somewhat accurate interpretation of God's plan. But I'd give you a C- if it were a book report of the Bible.

Now, I admit that am confused here. Is this doctrine, or is it dogma?

Probably dogma. Can a non-believer write convincing holy doctrine? It doesn't seem right.

Because otherwise I might very well mistake it for the stuff the comes from the south end of a northward walking bull. This story makes the flying team of reindeer story seem almost plausible. Almost.

Sometimes the truth seems stranger than fiction.
God is pleased with child-like faith in the truth.

"Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein."- Jesus