Christian "Love" for "Homosexuals"

[Haven]

Christian fundamentalists often claim to "love" lesbians, gays, and bisexuals (who they invariably label "homosexuals"), while at the same time actively opposing gay rights, including marriage equality, hate crimes laws, and even decriminalization of same-sex relationships. This seems ridiculous to me, as love implies support, but these individuals certainly don't support LGB people.

Debate question: Is it possible to love gay, lesbian, and bisexual people while opposing gay rights?[/i

[Hatuey]

: How many people are on psychotropics these days? How many people are now under the authority of a therapist?

Far less than the number of people who eat processed foods with chemical preservatives and additives? Far less than the number of people who stare all day at twenty inch screens with electrons hitting light sensitive cells to create an image? Far less than the number of people operating machines with combustible engines at a high rate of speed next to others operating machines with combustible engines at high rates of speed?

I'm sorry, I just don't see your point.

[99percentatheism]

: How many people are on psychotropics these days? How many people are now under the authority of a therapist?

Far less than the number of people who eat processed foods with chemical preservatives and additives? Far less than the number of people who stare all day at twenty inch screens with electrons hitting light sensitive cells to create an image? Far less than the number of people operating machines with combustible engines at a high rate of speed next to others operating machines with combustible engines at high rates of speed?

I'm sorry, I just don't see your point.

Here's the OP:

Christian fundamentalists often claim to "love" lesbians, gays, and bisexuals (who they invariably label "homosexuals"), while at the same time actively opposing gay rights, including marriage equality, hate crimes laws, and even decriminalization of same-sex relationships.

Actively opposing sin, sinning and the encouraging of sin is a perfect definition of Christian "Love." Doing so through the democratic process is a right also, that Christians possess.

This seems ridiculous to me, as love implies support, but these individuals certainly don't support LGB people.

Not supporting sin is a loving thing to do. Redefining marriage should be opposed and taught to the next generation as love in action.

Debate question: Is it possible to love gay, lesbian, and bisexual people while opposing gay rights?

Yes. Opposing sin is an act of love. "gay rights" is a political activist movement and any person in a democracy has the right to oppose or support any political movement. If that political movement is sinful to Christians, then it would be the very definition of love for a Christian to oppose it. Is it "love" for a Christian to drive a woman to an abortion? No x 2.

[KCKID]

No, I think that in a society that is permitted to enforce Torah law, the death penalty could be imposed on men found guilty of practicing buggery, subject to due process.

Edit for relevance of later post.

Let me get this straight (no pun intended). Under "ideal" conditions -- you would want people killed for engaging in consensual sex acts because some ignorant goat herders 3,000 years ago thought some magical sky god said that he hated the gays?

I'm sorry, but that is absolutely insane -- no better than the Taliban. Your post is a perfect example of why religious extremism is a cancer to the human race.

You know, I personally can't get my mind around the 'logic' behind the blind beliefs that SO many 'intelligent' people CLING TO and SO militantly DEFEND that are NO MORE than words from ancient parchment. For instance, Leviticus 20:13 is tossed so casually at gay people without any thought behind what this text is actually commanding. This command by 'the Creator of All' includes the punishment for said 'crime' of death by stoning. Again, this command was apparently given by an all-powerful being responsible for having created the universe and everything in it! The best way to punish someone is to dispose of them in the most brutal way imaginable according to this 'creator'. And, Christians are okay with this. They must be. I've NEVER heard any outcry from Christianity regarding the brutality contained in the Torah of the God they worship!

Below is a link to a video that I warn is MOST GRAPHIC! It shows how a woman is prepared for the punishment of stoning. She drops into a hole that has been previously dug and is then buried so that only the neck and head are visible. Then, begins the stoning (God's justice) until she is pummeled to death with rocks. Again, this video is graphically brutal; HOWEVER, the 'up' side is that the God some of you kowtow to commanded such things so I guess it's no less than God's justice in action. For me, however, it's SICKENING and made much more sickening by the knowledge that Leviticus 20:13 is still being used by Christians to condemn gay people!

[99percentatheism]

No, I think that in a society that is permitted to enforce Torah law, the death penalty could be imposed on men found guilty of practicing buggery, subject to due process.

Edit for relevance of later post.

Let me get this straight (no pun intended). Under "ideal" conditions -- you would want people killed for engaging in consensual sex acts because some ignorant goat herders 3,000 years ago thought some magical sky god said that he hated the gays?

I'm sorry, but that is absolutely insane -- no better than the Taliban. Your post is a perfect example of why religious extremism is a cancer to the human race.

You know, I personally can't get my mind around the 'logic' behind the blind beliefs that SO many 'intelligent' people CLING TO and SO militantly DEFEND that are NO MORE than words from ancient parchment. For instance, Leviticus 20:13 is tossed so casually at gay people without any thought behind what this text is actually commanding. This command by 'the Creator of All' includes the punishment for said 'crime' of death by stoning. Again, this command was apparently given by an all-powerful being responsible for having created the universe and everything in it! The best way to punish someone is to dispose of them in the most brutal way imaginable according to this 'creator'. And, Christians are okay with this. They must be. I've NEVER heard any outcry from Christianity regarding the brutality contained in the Torah of the God they worship!

Below is a link to a video that I warn is MOST GRAPHIC! It shows how a woman is prepared for the punishment of stoning. She drops into a hole that has been previously dug and is then buried so that only the neck and head are visible. Then, begins the stoning (God's justice) until she is pummeled to death with rocks. Again, this video is graphically brutal; HOWEVER, the 'up' side is that the God some of you kowtow to commanded such things so I guess it's no less than God's justice in action. For me, however, it's SICKENING and made much more sickening by the knowledge that Leviticus 20:13 is still being used by Christians to condemn gay people!

While I am not going to watch the video, could you tell me if they are Jews or Christians stoning the woman?

And Christians do not oppose homosexuality based on L-20:13, nor do they preach the death penalty for people that engage in homosexuality. Now, I believe, not even those people that protest funerals of soldiers right?

But the following loving pronouncement is motivating for Christians "throughout the ages:

Don’t you know that people who are unjust won’t inherit God’s kingdom? Don’t be deceived. Those who are sexually immoral, those who worship false gods, adulterers, both participants in same-sex intercourse, thieves, the greedy, drunks, abusive people, and swindlers won’t inherit God’s kingdom. That is what some of you used to be! But you were washed clean, you were made holy to God, and you were made right with God in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Avoid sexual immorality

I have the freedom to do anything, but not everything is helpful. I have the freedom to do anything, but I won’t be controlled by anything. Food is for the stomach and the stomach is for food, and yet God will do away with both. The body isn't for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord is for the body. God has raised the Lord and will raise us through his power. Don’t you know that your bodies are parts of Christ? So then, should I take parts of Christ and make them a part of someone who is sleeping around? No way! Don’t you know that anyone who is joined to someone who is sleeping around is one body with that person? The scripture says, The two will become one flesh. The one who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with him. Avoid sexual immorality! Every sin that a person can do is committed outside the body, except those who engage in sexual immorality commit sin against their own bodies.

- This was written by Paul to Christians in Corinth. Greek Christians in Corinth and of course others. 1 Corinthians 6

This Paul:

. . . The Lord replied, “Go! This man is the agent I have chosen to carry my name before Gentiles, kings, and Israelites.

- Acts 9

[Hatuey]

While I am not going to watch the video, could you tell me if they are Jews or Christians stoning the woman?

I think the point was that your god wanted that same act to happen performed by the jews on the jews as he prescribed. Your god thinks that sort of act (in the video) is a good idea for people he finds deserving. Your god desired that same act. Your god. Your god. Your god. Be proud of serving him.

[Haven]

So you DO want Christians, Christianity and The Church under the authority of gay pride activists? So this "gay agenda" thing is no joke.

I don't want radical Christians, radical Muslims, or anyone else to carry out hateful, violent acts or blatant discrimination against the gay community. The law should fully protect LGBTQ+ people, and if in your mind that constitutes "gay authority," then yes, I want these anti-human fanatics under gay authority.

My only "agenda" is equality for all sentient beings.

[Haven]

I recognize that completely.

Then why did you misinterpret my first post?

"Frivolous things?" The Israelites took these things deadly seriously.

. . . which is why they were stuck in the dark ages.

You can't seriously believe that not trimming the edges of your beard is a real moral issue?

Ever notice that "foods" were dealt with in the New Testament but same gender sexuality was described in very negative ways?

Where does the New Testament unambiguously mention homosexuality (and please don't provide a disputed recent English translation)?

How is the dramatizing of the word "anti-gay" change the fact that any honest Torah-observant Jew or Gospel-affirming Christian should be anti-sin?

Who says homosexuality is a sin?

"Gay" is a neologism and even that tactic cannot mask the inappropriateness of same gender sexuality as being a sin.

Excuse me, but I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Please spell it out.

But . . ., if you are anti-Christian, you can believe and do anything you want. Choice is what it's all about.

Then why are you so obsessed with stopping the march of progress on gay rights? Why not rail against other acts you believe to be "sins" (like, apparently, trimming the edges of beards).

Why would anyone want to repent of whiteness?

Why would anyone want to repent of homosexuality?

Are you positing that the APA and "psychology" has authority over Christianity?

Yes, science should have authority over superstition.

[KCKID]

No, I think that in a society that is permitted to enforce Torah law, the death penalty could be imposed on men found guilty of practicing buggery, subject to due process.

Edit for relevance of later post.

Let me get this straight (no pun intended). Under "ideal" conditions -- you would want people killed for engaging in consensual sex acts because some ignorant goat herders 3,000 years ago thought some magical sky god said that he hated the gays?

I'm sorry, but that is absolutely insane -- no better than the Taliban. Your post is a perfect example of why religious extremism is a cancer to the human race.

You know, I personally can't get my mind around the 'logic' behind the blind beliefs that SO many 'intelligent' people CLING TO and SO militantly DEFEND that are NO MORE than words from ancient parchment. For instance, Leviticus 20:13 is tossed so casually at gay people without any thought behind what this text is actually commanding. This command by 'the Creator of All' includes the punishment for said 'crime' of death by stoning. Again, this command was apparently given by an all-powerful being responsible for having created the universe and everything in it! The best way to punish someone is to dispose of them in the most brutal way imaginable according to this 'creator'. And, Christians are okay with this. They must be. I've NEVER heard any outcry from Christianity regarding the brutality contained in the Torah of the God they worship!

Below is a link to a video that I warn is MOST GRAPHIC! It shows how a woman is prepared for the punishment of stoning. She drops into a hole that has been previously dug and is then buried so that only the neck and head are visible. Then, begins the stoning (God's justice) until she is pummeled to death with rocks. Again, this video is graphically brutal; HOWEVER, the 'up' side is that the God some of you kowtow to commanded such things so I guess it's no less than God's justice in action. For me, however, it's SICKENING and made much more sickening by the knowledge that Leviticus 20:13 is still being used by Christians to condemn gay people!

While I am not going to watch the video,

Why not? Squeamish? I don't blame you. This video infuriates me. However, stoning people (women) for adultery is a command of God. This is the very same God you'll be worshiping in church in a day or two. The very same God that you are "humbled to serve" ...as per your below post.

could you tell me if they are Jews or Christians stoning the woman?

Well, as Hatuey already pointed out, WHO is doing the stoning is not the point. Stoning someone to death is stoning someone to death REGARDLESS of who is doing it. However, since you ask, these wretched murderers are apparently Muslims from 'somewhere in Africa' according to the comments. I'll make my point again ...stoning people to death was a command of God!

And Christians do not oppose homosexuality based on L-20:13,

While I realize that this is not what you mean, I'd say that it could be reasoned fairly accurately that people are against homosexuality for reasons other than "what the Bible sez." Whatever, Christians who might well have a personal fear/loathing of homosexuality persistently USE Leviticus and a few other scriptures (a few is all there are) as support for homophobia and bigotry. And, of course, many others appear to just parrot what they've been brainwashed with over the years. Yes, it's an appalling state of affairs but that's the way it seems to be. You, 99percent, have stated a number of times that "God says that homosexuality is an abomination" so - CLEARLY - YOU use Leviticus 20:13 when it suits your purpose.

Would you like me to produce a recent post of yours in which you use Leviticus 20:13 to make your argument against homosexuality? Or, would you rather withdraw your above statement?

nor do they preach the death penalty for people that engage in homosexuality.

Then why use Leviticus 20:13 AT ALL to toss at gay people? Why use the 'abomination' part but come to a screeching halt at the 'death penalty' part? Do you understand, 99percent, why more and more people are rejecting this brand of 'hypocritical Christianity'?

Now, I believe, not even those people that protest funerals of soldiers right?

Do you mean those that carry the banners, "Fags Must Die! See Leviticus 20:13" ...? Do you mean those ones?

But the following loving pronouncement is motivating for Christians "throughout the ages:

Don’t you know that people who are unjust won’t inherit God’s kingdom? Don’t be deceived. Those who are sexually immoral, those who worship false gods, adulterers, both participants in same-sex intercourse, thieves, the greedy, drunks, abusive people, and swindlers won’t inherit God’s kingdom. That is what some of you used to be! But you were washed clean, you were made holy to God, and you were made right with God in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Where did the bolded part appear from? This is the same text (1 Corinthians 6:9) from the KJV:

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

Which of the above terms, 'fornicators', idolaters', 'adulterers', effeminate' or 'abusers of themselves' translates to mean homosexuality? Please ...let me know ASAP so that I can make a note of this for future discussions.

Incidentally, Romans 3:10 tells us that NONE are righteous ...no, not one. According to the previous (above) text, does this mean that we're ALL goners regardless as to how we might qualify for the rest of the list?

Avoid sexual immorality

Maybe I will ...but not because I'm instructed to do so by an ancient parchment. That said, are you preaching this message to the overwhelming number of heterosexuals who engage in 'sexual immorality' on a daily basis? Do you know what the most popular sites on the Internet are? The 'gay' sex sites? Try again!

But, of course ...no Christian would participate in these kinds of sites ...

I have the freedom to do anything, but not everything is helpful. I have the freedom to do anything, but I won’t be controlled by anything. Food is for the stomach and the stomach is for food, and yet God will do away with both. The body isn't for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord is for the body. God has raised the Lord and will raise us through his power. Don’t you know that your bodies are parts of Christ? So then, should I take parts of Christ and make them a part of someone who is sleeping around? No way! Don’t you know that anyone who is joined to someone who is sleeping around is one body with that person? The scripture says, The two will become one flesh. The one who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with him. Avoid sexual immorality! Every sin that a person can do is committed outside the body, except those who engage in sexual immorality commit sin against their own bodies.

- This was written by Paul to Christians in Corinth. Greek Christians in Corinth and of course others. 1 Corinthians 6

Good for Paul. If we need to take advice from anyone then I guess we should take advice from a man who advised that those who lust after a woman should rather marry that woman ...always a good foundation for a successful marriage! And, from a man who chose to remain single and, we may assume, celibate, but was nevertheless an expert on sex!

This Paul:

. . . The Lord replied, “Go! This man is the agent I have chosen to carry my name before Gentiles, kings, and Israelites.

- Acts 9

Oh, THAT Paul. Okay.

[99percentatheism]

While I am not going to watch the video, could you tell me if they are Jews or Christians stoning the woman?

I think the point was that your god wanted that same act to happen performed by the jews on the jews as he prescribed. Your god thinks that sort of act (in the video) is a good idea for people he finds deserving. Your god desired that same act. Your god. Your god. Your god. Be proud of serving him.

I am humbled to serve Him.

I notice with fascination, that in the following, that "pride" in proclaiming one's sexual behavior is strikingly absent from the list:

“Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.
Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

“Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

And of course, preaching the repentance of sins, even though it gets a Christian called all sorts of hysterically nasty labels, is an important part what Christian love is all about.

[99percentatheism]

Haven

I recognize that completely.

Then why did you misinterpret my first post?

Misinterpret? I understand what you are doing perfectly.

"Frivolous things?" The Israelites took these things deadly seriously.

. . . which is why they were stuck in the dark ages.

Jesus is quite the influential "Jew" last time I looked. And I believe that "Jews" number substantially in Nobel Prize recipients.

You can't seriously believe that not trimming the edges of your beard is a real moral issue?

I do not go out of my way to insult Jewish men that adhere to this religious practice.

Ever notice that "foods" were dealt with in the New Testament but same gender sexuality was described in very negative ways?

Where does the New Testament unambiguously mention homosexuality (and please don't provide a disputed recent English translation)?

Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

And of course the unambiguous usage of arsenokoitai by Paul ends the debate for sure. And of course so does the matter of fact that marriage is immutably man and woman/husband and wife in Christian scriptures. There simply is no such thing as support, condoning, affirming, celebration or agreement for same gender sexual acts anywhere in the New Testament. The attack on Christians by the gay community and their legion of supporters to call us hateful names is unjustified.

How is the dramatizing of the word "anti-gay" change the fact that any honest Torah-observant Jew or Gospel-affirming Christian should be anti-sin?

Who says homosexuality is a sin?

Christian truth. You are not forced to believe what we do. And we will never be forced to celebrate gay pride. Ever.

"Gay" is a neologism and even that tactic cannot mask the inappropriateness of same gender sexuality as being a sin.

Excuse me, but I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Please spell it out.

A rose by any other name . . .

But . . ., if you are anti-Christian, you can believe and do anything you want. Choice is what it's all about.

Then why are you so obsessed with stopping the march of progress on gay rights?

"Obsessed?" Why the same old tactics time and again? I am contending for the faith. Nothing less.

The Sin and Doom of Ungodly People

Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people. For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

- Jude

Why would anyone want to repent of whiteness?

Why would anyone want to repent of homosexuality?

One can only repent of a sin or sins.

Are you positing that the APA and "psychology" has authority over Christianity?

Yes, science should have authority over superstition.

Do you know the origin of "lesbianism?" Mythology and superstition. Sappho of Lesbos Island . . . for those that are ignorant of its history.

When rubber sex toys and rectums and throats can be shown to be part of the sexual organs, than the science followed by Christians on what appropriate sex acts are is solid and sound.

Science and logic should have authority over sexual deviance and sexual depravity and personal unnatural sexual desires that run counter to anatomical reality. Science and logic, based on anatomy, physiology and biology are all in concert with Christian theology on sexual behavior.

Now, anyone is free to engage in all of the unnatural sex acts they desire, but that cannot make it an equality issue based on sound scientific reason. Per rational observation of human anatomical reality. That is to say, science.