references to God

[Elijah John]

I notice it seems to be the habit of many atheists and agnostics here on these forums to refer to God as "it".

And I think I understand the motivation, in that such references are most probably a desire to remain gender neutral, because a lot of folks are uncomfortable with calling God "He" or referring to Him in masculine terms. Fair enough.

But most of us Theists know that the masculine pronoun is due to the limitations of the English language, and some of us realize that such usage may be unneccesarily anthropromorphic to some who doubt the very existance of God.

But is the word "it" any better when referring to God?

Many theologians consider the word "it" to be limiting as well, in reference to God. And many of them say that God is no THING. "It" implies a "thing".

What I am trying to say, for those non-believers who also want to treat the subject of theism with respect and in the interest of civility, would you consider humoring us Theists by using the pronouns "He" when referring to God, or "She" if referring to a Goddess?

The word "it" in reference to God sounds demeaning and disrespectful to us believers. Obviously if one just does not care, one may consider my request unreasonable. And no one is questioning your RIGHT to call God "it".

But on the other hand, many who are quick to embrace the latest politically correct terminology from the Left will use whatever phrase is requested or dictated to them, newly fashionable acronyms such as "LGBT", or not LGBTQ" rights, instead of simply the old fashioned "gay rights" without a second thought.

So why not show us Theists the same respect, even if you do not respect our beliefs?
The "why or why not" is the question for debate, and is this request in and of itself yet another attempt of a Theist to control behavior?

If so, why do you accept control of speech from the political Left, but not from a politically neutral perspective in matters of Spiritual terminology? Is there a double standard here?

Or what may be some alternatives that every one could be happy with?

Believe me, we get it, if you were to call God "He" we would not think all of a sudden you converted or changed your fundamental world view. We would just consider it a sign of respect.

[connermt]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

I notice it seems to be the habit of many atheists and agnostics here on these forums to refer to God as "it".

For me, it's more of a means of not specifying a certain deity, as there seems to be as many 'gods' no matter if they use 'g' or 'G' as there are posters.

I specific 'g'od and not 'G'od as a means of showing my lack of respect for said deity (just to clarify). It has nothing to do with proper spelling or the like (as some have claimed).

I'm content with my use of the term in here. I don't anticipate changing it any time soon

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

I notice it seems to be the habit of many atheists and agnostics here on these forums to refer to God as "it".

For me, it's more of a means of not specifying a certain deity, as there seems to be as many 'gods' no matter if they use 'g' or 'G' as there are posters.

I specific 'g'od and not 'G'od as a means of showing my lack of respect for said deity (just to clarify). It has nothing to do with proper spelling or the like (as some have claimed).

I'm content with my use of the term in here. I don't anticipate changing it any time soon

Which, is or course, your right. And the lowercase could mean the generic word for gods in general, and the upper is almost a proper name, as it is in Islam, where Allah means THE God.

I realize it is not a case of misspelling, and understand the distinction.

I use the uppercase as a term of singularity and respect. You use the lower to show contempt for the Deity, point understood and noted.

[McCulloch]

Following the grammar rules of standard English, I capitalize the word god when it is being used as if it were a name. For example, "Do you really think that God cares about what you eat?" However when using either the word the or a in front, then the word should not be capitalized. For example, "Do you really think that a god cares about what you eat?"

With regard to using a pronoun for a genderless god, I believe that the best practice would be to avoid the pronoun altogether. A little bit awkward, but it avoids assigning gender to God or implying that God is inanimate. "For God so loved the world, that God gave God's only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

So why not show us Theists the same respect, even if you do not respect our beliefs?

Would that show sufficient respect?

[Elijah John]

Following the grammar rules of standard English, I capitalize the word god when it is being used as if it were a name. For example, "Do you really think that God cares about what you eat?" However when using either the word the or a in front, then the word should not be capitalized. For example, "Do you really think that a god cares about what you eat?"

With regard to using a pronoun for a genderless god, I believe that the best practice would be to avoid the pronoun altogether. A little bit awkward, but it avoids assigning gender to God or implying that God is inanimate. "For God so loved the world, that God gave God's only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

So why not show us Theists the same respect, even if you do not respect our beliefs?

Would that show sufficient respect?

Yes, thank you, and I understand and respect your approach.

Yes, grammatically, it does get a little awkward to repeat the proper name or even the word "god" and pronouns do have their place, in spite of their limitations.

Even if one were to use the lowercase "h" for he, (or "s" for she) I think that would be an improvement over use of the word "it". Uppercase "I" as in "It", not sure that would be a solution either. (Not that you were suggesting that, just thinking out loud here.)

[Zzyzx]

.
[Replying to post 5 by Elijah John]

Since thousands of "gods" are proposed, worshiped, loved, feared by humans does any one of them merit exclusive use of the term or name "god" (perhaps capitalized)? Likewise, does any one merit capitalizing "he" or "him" (let alone all caps)?

It seems to me as though the term "god" is generic -- even though people attach particular reverence for their favorite.

I capitalize Jesus since that is a personal name (whether the person was real or fictional).

[dianaiad]

.
[Replying to post 5 by Elijah John]

Since thousands of "gods" are proposed, worshiped, loved, feared by humans does any one of them merit exclusive use of the term or name "god" (perhaps capitalized)? Likewise, does any one merit capitalizing "he" or "him" (let alone all caps)?

It seems to me as though the term "god" is generic -- even though people attach particular reverence for their favorite.

I capitalize Jesus since that is a personal name (whether the person was real or fictional).

My English teacher genes are kicking in here.

For one thing, I am annoyed by the modern insistence upon using 'he or she' when referring to someone whose sex is not known. What's the matter with the old fashioned 'he?" It refers to both sexes when the identity of the person is not known. When it is known, then of course the proper pronoun should be used.

As to deity, simple respect...not for the beliefs, but rather for the people who hold them...would dictate that one use the pronoun they use to describe the deity they worship. If they think God is a "he,' then refer to Him that way. Oh, and capitalize the pronouns. That way everybody knows Who you are talking about.

By the same token, if the believers are talking about a goddess, rather than a god, then by all means refer to Her as "She,' (if, that is, they capitalize the pronouns) if only because doing so avoids taking the conversation down useless avenues.

It's not theology. It's grammar.

And common courtesy. Doing so does NOT indicate that you agree with the believer or share his beliefs, after all. It simply shows that you graduated from high school having paid attention in English class.

[wiploc]

I notice it seems to be the habit of many atheists and agnostics here on these forums to refer to God as "it".

I have not noticed this.

...
But most of us Theists know that the masculine pronoun is due to the limitations of the English language, and some of us realize that such usage may be unneccesarily anthropromorphic to some who doubt the very existance of God.

I'm skeptical. I suspect that most of you theists think of your god as male.

...
Many theologians consider the word "it" to be limiting as well, in reference to God. And many of them say that God is no THING. "It" implies a "thing".

That dog won't hunt.

What I am trying to say, for those non-believers who also want to treat the subject of theism with respect and in the interest of civility, would you consider humoring us Theists by using the pronouns "He" when referring to God, or "She" if referring to a Goddess?

I say "he," generally. If I want to capitalize, I say "Jehovah." I'm probably not perfectly consistent.

The word "it" in reference to God sounds demeaning and disrespectful to us believers.

How do you think being asked to capitalize pronouns sounds to us nonbelievers?

Obviously if one just does not care, one may consider my request unreasonable. And no one is questioning your RIGHT to call God "it".

But on the other hand, many who are quick to embrace the latest politically correct terminology from the Left will use whatever phrase is requested or dictated to them, newly fashionable acronyms such as "LGBT", or not LGBTQ" rights, instead of simply the old fashioned "gay rights" without a second thought.

You're ahead of me there.

So why not show us Theists the same respect, even if you do not respect our beliefs?
The "why or why not" is the question for debate, and is this request in and of itself yet another attempt of a Theist to control behavior?

Why not? Because you are engaged in cultural colonization. You want us to capitalize "God," but you don't offer to capitalize "No God." You don't capitalize "He" when talking about Thor or Satan. Why do you want special treatment? Why should we want to give you special treatment?

Please forgive me for generalizing: "you are engaged in cultural colonization." You wanted to know my reaction, my perception, my reasoning. I don't mean to tar you personally; I mean to give you my visceral response to your request.

...
Or what may be some alternatives that every one could be happy with?

Talk normal. Capitalize names, not pronouns. Don't try to own the public language. Don't be like IBM when many companies were manufacturing PCs (personal computers, and IBM named their PC "PC." Maybe it was a genius stroke of advertizing, but it was rude.

Believe me, we get it, if you were to call God "He" we would not think all of a sudden you converted or changed your fundamental world view. We would just consider it a sign of respect.

Do you put "PBUH" after every reference to Mohammed?

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 8 by wiploc]

Capitializing names and not pronouns seems reasonable to me, for others. But for myself, I know it is not proper grammatical usage, but it is one way I use to show respect when referring to the Deity. But I know this is not universal, even among us Theists.

[Elijah John]

.
[Replying to post 5 by Elijah John]

Since thousands of "gods" are proposed, worshiped, loved, feared by humans does any one of them merit exclusive use of the term or name "god" (perhaps capitalized)? Likewise, does any one merit capitalizing "he" or "him" (let alone all caps)?

It seems to me as though the term "god" is generic -- even though people attach particular reverence for their favorite.

I capitalize Jesus since that is a personal name (whether the person was real or fictional).

Fair question. But when I use the capital "G" I mean it the same way that Muslims call God THE God, (Allah in Arabic). In other words as a personal name for the Deity. I differ with Muslims because I refer to the God of Abraham as the name that was revealed to Moses, and the name that was used almost 7000 times in the Hebrew Bible, YHVH, but in common usage, the capitalized word "God" is understood by most people Jews, Christians and Muslims, and those in Western society in general, as the god of Abraham.

The main thrust of my OP though is just an appeal for folks to avoid the use of the word "it" to refer to the Deity, as a sign of respect for those who care about such things, believers or not. I realize the use of "it" solves some problems, but it creates others. And is in at least one case used as a sign of contempt for the Deity. Surely there must be a better way, and again, for those who WANT to show respect for others beliefs, if not for the object of that belief.

The capitalizations of pronouns is a secondary issue, from my p.o.v.