Evolution

[keithprosser3]

Given the nature of reproduction and of natural selection isn't evolution inescapable?
How can evolution not happen?

[ReligionOFTHEsemites]

Lol arian is actually pretty entertaining. The sporadic assertions, the creation of made-up "facts" right before your eyes, the hilarious claims of having no education yet claiming to "disprove" evolution with little fallacious catch-phrases he found on anti-atheist pages. It's all very funny (and yet a little sad) to me.

Those who know the least amount about a subject are those who ignorantly claim they know the most about it. People who are generally against evolution cannot even define it, never mind know anything with substance about the topic.

[dianaiad]

Lol arian is actually pretty entertaining. The sporadic assertions, the creation of made-up "facts" right before your eyes, the hilarious claims of having no education yet claiming to "disprove" evolution with little fallacious catch-phrases he found on anti-atheist pages. It's all very funny (and yet a little sad) to me.

Those who know the least amount about a subject are those who ignorantly claim they know the most about it. People who are generally against evolution cannot even define it, never mind know anything with substance about the topic.

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[arian]

[Replying to post 1183 by arian]

Arian,

Unfortunately, I'm inclined to agree with the poster above, that responding would be a complete waste of time.

Big Bang/Pre-Big Bang
Please check out Sean Carroll's debate with William Lane Craig regarding the Big Bang:

Thank you KenRU

May I ask if you "checked out" Sean Carroll's debate with William Lane Craig regarding the Big Bang? If you did, then it should help you debate the issue with me.

When I debated with Muslims back in Detroit (before I read the Koran) and pointed out to them some of their flaws in their behavior against their women and especially their daughters regarding shaming the family name, they also told me; "It is quite evident that you really do not know very much about Islam and how it works. Have you read the Koran? See, .. if you would have read the Holy Koran you would not make these harsh stupid comments!"

Evolution
It is quite evident that you really do not know very much about evolution and how it works, yet you are ardently opposed to it. And, evidently, equally opposed to learning about it as well. And that is how informed decisions are made. For what it is worth, you may want to learn more about something before dismissing it outright.

I don't know about Evolution? Try me, point out a scientifically observed and documented hundreds of thousands of year evolution of one species evolving into another, and we'll debate it? Just stop telling me I don't know about Evolution because I won't accept its wild fantasy claims, especially when they call it science.
I will not accept self-claimed FACTS like "Millions and millions of years ago, this bird fossil was really this lizard fossil here, and now let me give you a scientific explanation how it all evolved?"

Evidence
You said: This is why I can prove the theory of relativity wrong, because I am not limited to what is in my brain, but these scientist geniuses are. So my lack of education is really my greatest blessing from God.

Being willfully ignorant on a subject is not a selling feature in my book. You actually make my point for me here: Religion inhibits science.

It wasn't my will to be kept out of school, and it wasn't for any religious reason either, it was sheer hate. I didn't phrase my above statement right, I wanted to say: "Me being kept out of school was my greatest blessing from God". It is because it made me observe humans as they are, their actions vs. their beliefs. What they preached and taught vs. what they actually did.
When I read about Big-bang Evolution, I can see the same cult-like religious hypocrisy present in all religions. And I agree with you 100% that "Religion inhibits science".

You have made it clear, that you ignore real world and verifiable evidence in order to suit your belief system. And that is your choice.

Please show me where I "ignore real world and verifiable evidence"?

I have presented facts, like the existence of 'nothing, .. the mind not being the brain, .. The Big-bang Theory not having even a pebble sized foundation, .. claiming billions of years of non-observed Evolution as science, .. Special Relativity as a diversion from actual reality to try to justify the BB Theory, and so on.'

Unfortunately, that being the case, there can be no fruitful way to have a meaningful conversation (at least none that I see).

This is a Debating Forum, but if you want just a conversation, by all means PM me. We can talk about the family, the weather, whatever you like.

Good luck in your endeavors, Arian. Perhaps in the future we will be able to have a meaningful conversation. Once that places a value on science and education.

I challenge you to show me where I show disregard for science and education? But I did show that the Big Bang Evolution religion is an insult to my intelligence and a total disregard for science and what it stands for. Science and religion don't mix, just as you will never find God our Creator "I Am" in any religion.

It was a pleasure to debate with you my friend, and when you start realizing that religious science is only good for sci-fi movies, and that it defines a fairytale reality which if taken seriously can be detrimental to the survival of the human race, I'd be happy to debate with you again.

Take care

[Clownboat]

Again you missed it, Jesus was telling us that since we are all 'bad trees', He can fix it that we can all become 'good trees' through Him.

I reject your un-evidence claims due to the fact that I am not a bad tree. You may have committed acts that would make you be OK with a human being sacrificed over said acts, but I have done no such things.

Due to this, you come across as a bad tree projecting your badness on to the rest of us trees. Unless of course, you can show me that I'm a bad tree.

I hope you can do better than:
Once upon a time, there was a man that was tricked in to eating from a tree by a talking snake. Therefore, we are all bad trees and a humans needs to be nailed to a pole so we can be good trees.

The notion of sacrificing a human to a god concept for actions you have done, or not done could warrant the argument that said person is actually the bad tree and those that would not sacrifice a human for their actions would be the good trees.

So far, you have failed to convince me to be OK with or to kill another human for any actions I have done.

A) I am a bad person
B) But I'm ok with a human being sacrificed to a god concept in order to be redeemed for being so bad.
C) You will know them by their fruits.

Is it good fruit or bad fruit in your opinion to kill another human for actions you have committed?

First, you must understand what love is, and that our actions have consequences. Now I understand that your religion defines consequences very differently than what it once was, so this next explanation to your questions may not be logical for you. Try to think outside of your religious indoctrination Clownboat!

WARNING!!
The following is a quote from the Bible, and it is meant to explain in greater detail of the questions you had for me. Reading further could cause discomfort to some readers, and even the uncontrollable desire to report me. But you have been warned.

Romans 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; 4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

Christ in Our Place

6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

Death in Adam, Life in Christ

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned" 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one mans offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.

The entire chapter.

You didn't respond to my post and instead decided to quote scripture verses.


I'll take it from your lack of response that you really don't know who the bad trees are, or if there really is such a thing as a bad tree that you chose to interject.

Take religion out of this for a moment.
Who would be the better man?
Person A) Is involved in a multi car accident and kills a pedestrian. Another driver that did not survive is blamed for hitting the pedestrian.
Person B) Person B actually hit the pedestrian. It's OK says B, another driver paid the price for me.

[Clownboat]

I challenge you to show me where I show disregard for science and education?

The top two that come to mind that you disregard or refuse to educate yourself on would be:
1) The false claim you keep repeating that the Big Bang theory states that something came from nothing. You have been educated on this countless times, so I assume you disregard it or refuse to be educated.
2) Evolution is a religion. Again.... same thing.

[arian]

You didn't respond to my post and instead decided to quote scripture verses.

So if you quote some "Big-bang Evolutionary writings" on a subject on Evolution, should I consider that a "Non-Response" from you?

I'll take it from your lack of response that you really don't know who the bad trees are, or if there really is such a thing as a bad tree that you chose to interject.

You consider my carefully picked out 'Bible quote' to explain your question to me as a "lack of response"?? So what in blazes would you consider a "proper response" from me, .. that "I agree with you Clownboat, you are always right and my responses are always wrong"?? Is that what you are looking for?

Here again:

* You take a fruit from a tree, eat it and you get really sick, end up in the hospital = bad tree producing bad fruit

* Another time you take a fruit from another tree, eat it and feel satisfied and refreshed = good tree bearing good fruit

Take religion out of this for a moment.
Who would be the better man?

Person A) Is involved in a multi car accident and kills a pedestrian. Another driver that did not survive is blamed for hitting the pedestrian.

Person B) Person B actually hit the pedestrian. It's OK says B, another driver paid the price for me.

You are correct, this IS a very religious comment and I will try to 'take religion out of it' like you asked, OK? But first:

Is Person A blaming the dead driver in another car for killing the pedestrian?
Is Person B sitting in Persons A's car also since they both hit the pedestrian?
Is the dead pedestrian under Person A & B's car?
Is that 'another driver' who did not survive in his own car, or is he also in A & B's car?

What this has to do with Jesus taking the sin of the world upon Himself I have no idea, but I have dealt with religious ramblings before? IMHO Clownboat, you really do have to stop thinking/believing that you are an 'evolving-ape'! My friend you are a human created in your Creators Image, so think and act like a human, .. please? I'm telling you my friend I am concerned for you because the signs are evident that if you keep this Evolution faith up, your ramblings on evolution will one day take you going from university to university doing lectures on Evolution by sign language along with Koko.


I have shown you the perfect Scripture explanation for your question, yet I doubt you even read it. You probably never past my warning have you Clownboat?

Again:

No One blamed 'dead Jesus' for the sins of man, no one. and when you dare open the Bible and find a place in there to prove me otherwise, please do so?

Take care my friend!

[KenRU]

[Replying to post 1187 by arian]

Arian,

May I ask if you "checked out" Sean Carroll's debate with William Lane Craig regarding the Big Bang? If you did, then it should help you debate the issue with me.
Yes, I have watched it. That is why I recommended you view it. Watching this debate, along with others of his, explains very efficiently what the current science understands (and doesnt understand) about the Big Bang and what came before.

I don't know about Evolution?
Correct. Evidence (in your words) to support the assertion that you do nto have a sound understanding of how evolution works:

Post 1159:
- Or was it 'before' man was a single celled bacterium?
- Then man becomes a single celled bacterium.

Post 1183:
- Yet you believe you are a member of a family of apes??
- Extinction of the human race! How did human figure out that extinction is bad and that they should do whatever possible to avoid it?
- I thought Evolution was no will of anyone or anything, but now there is intent to survive??

Post 1187:
- Try me, point out a scientifically observed and documented hundreds of thousands of year evolution of one species evolving into another, and we'll debate it?
- I will not accept self-claimed FACTS like "Millions and millions of years ago, this bird fossil was really this lizard fossil here, and now let me give you a scientific explanation how it all evolved?"

Just stop telling me I don't know about Evolution because I won't accept its wild fantasy claims, especially when they call it science.
Thats not why Im saying you dont understand evolution. Im saying it because the examples above prove that you do not understand how evolution works.

It wasn't my will to be kept out of school
Doesnt change the point. Being uneducated in a subject does not and never will make you understand something better than those that have studied in the field.

Please show me where I "ignore real world and verifiable evidence"?
The mind/brain examples I gave before (specifically brain damage and Sensory Deprivation). Everything you rationalized here to make your point IGNORES real world data. No way around this.

I have presented facts
No, you have presented opinions that specifically ignore facts.

I challenge you to show me where I show disregard for science and education?
See above.

when you start realizing that religious science is only good for sci-fi movies, and that it defines a fairytale reality which if taken seriously can be detrimental to the survival of the human race, I'd be happy to debate with you again.
Arguably the most ironic and hypocritical assertion I have read thus far. You assert, with no evidence whatsoever to support your claim, that the mind can be separated from the body, and yet you call evolution and big bang theory religious science. I listed real world examples of how the brain and mind are inextricable -which you have not shown any evidence to counter. You can rationalize it all you want, working up elaborate explanations, jumping through hoops to explain away what really happens, but that is all you can do.

Never once providing a real world example to support your claim.

If you have something substantive to support your fantastic assertions, I'm all ears (or eyes as is the case here). Otherwise, the debate/discussion is indeed painfully futile.

All the best,

[Randall]

^ slow clap...and then walks away knowing that the argument is in good hands.

[Clownboat]

You didn't respond to my post and instead decided to quote scripture verses.

So if you quote some "Big-bang Evolutionary writings" on a subject on Evolution, should I consider that a "Non-Response" from you?

This is a very childish response IMO, but I guess it would depend on whether or not it was done in response to a question. Either way, this is the science sub forum and you should not be quoting from religious holy books and using said quotes as your only response. Am I not worth a response from you? Your holy book I already know.

I'll take it from your lack of response that you really don't know who the bad trees are, or if there really is such a thing as a bad tree that you chose to interject.

You consider my carefully picked out 'Bible quote' to explain your question to me as a "lack of response"?? So what in blazes would you consider a "proper response" from me, .. that "I agree with you Clownboat, you are always right and my responses are always wrong"?? Is that what you are looking for?

Here again:

* You take a fruit from a tree, eat it and you get really sick, end up in the hospital = bad tree producing bad fruit

* Another time you take a fruit from another tree, eat it and feel satisfied and refreshed = good tree bearing good fruit

I can't keep up. First you talk about people being the good and bad trees. You know, like from your Bible where you will know them by their fruits and such. Now you supply an answer, yet describe actual trees as if they are good or bad. It doesn't seem as if you are being serious here.

Take religion out of this for a moment.
Who would be the better man?

Person A) Is involved in a multi car accident and kills a pedestrian. Another driver that did not survive is blamed for hitting the pedestrian.

Person B) Person B actually hit the pedestrian. It's OK says B, another driver paid the price for me.

You are correct, this IS a very religious comment and I will try to 'take religion out of it' like you asked, OK? But first:

Is Person A blaming the dead driver in another car for killing the pedestrian?
Is Person B sitting in Persons A's car also since they both hit the pedestrian?
Is the dead pedestrian under Person A & B's car?
Is that 'another driver' who did not survive in his own car, or is he also in A & B's car?

Irrelevant questions. Your non answer is noted.

What this has to do with Jesus taking the sin of the world upon Himself I have no idea, but I have dealt with religious ramblings before? IMHO Clownboat, you really do have to stop thinking/believing that you are an 'evolving-ape'! My friend you are a human created in your Creators Image, so think and act like a human, .. please? I'm telling you my friend I am concerned for you because the signs are evident that if you keep this Evolution faith up, your ramblings on evolution will one day take you going from university to university doing lectures on Evolution by sign language along with Koko.

Start acting like a human!
Your disrespect for me is noted. Why was it necessary to voice this though?

I have shown you the perfect Scripture explanation for your question, yet I doubt you even read it. You probably never past my warning have you Clownboat?

I know the scriptures. What you actually showed me was disrespect, and from the holy book I use to worship, "you will know them by your fruits". This for me is evidence that you are not following any path that I want to be a part of.

Again:

No One blamed 'dead Jesus' for the sins of man, no one. and when you dare open the Bible and find a place in there to prove me otherwise, please do so?

Take care my friend!

Why would I support my position here using the Bible? This is the science sub forum and that would be disrespectful and against the rules.

Are my "fruits" not better than yours in this instance?

[Tidus]

[Replying to post 1 by keithprosser3]

Can any creationist explain to me how we can see starlight from stars billions of light years away? If the universe is only 6,000 years old then logically we should only be able to see stars that are within 6000 light years of Earth but most of even observable stars by telescope are farther away than that. If you say the current Astronomical way of measuring distance is wrong and argue that we can not know the distance to ET stars or planets because we have not traveled there ourselves, then how come we have measured the distance between Earth and other planets with near 100% precision and this has been proven by the time it takes space probes to get to these planets? Surely if we can get distances in the solar system right we can't be off by a factor of a million to the farthest stars in the Hubble Deep Field? And also, it is mathematically impossible to hold all the matterwe have discovered in such a small area,