Who can baptize whom?

[Zzyzx]

.
Even if there was agreement regarding necessity of baptism (which seems elusive in Christendom and among debate members):

1) WHAT exactly must be done and by WHOM?

2) If a parent sprinkles water on the head of their infant (or dunks them in a bathtub) and intones reverently "I baptize thee . . . ." is that sufficient?

3) Or, must the baptism be done by someone with "credentials?" If so, what credentials are required and who is authorized to decide such matters?

4) Can only a licensed preacher do the job, or only an ordained minister, or someone sanctioned by a church for such duties?

5) Does a baptism "count" if it was done by someone from a different Christian church?

6) Can a person who does not know what is going on be baptized?

[Princess Luna On The Moon]

[Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]

I've never really understood baptism. I know what it symbolizes and what Christians think it means, but I've never understood the purpose. How is it beneficial to get dunked in potentially filthy water or sprinkled as a child against your will?

[Elijah John]

.
Even if there was agreement regarding necessity of baptism (which seems elusive in Christendom and among debate members):

1) WHAT exactly must be done and by WHOM?

2) If a parent sprinkles water on the head of their infant (or dunks them in a bathtub) and intones reverently "I baptize thee . . . ." is that sufficient?

3) Or, must the baptism be done by someone with "credentials?" If so, what credentials are required and who is authorized to decide such matters?

4) Can only a licensed preacher do the job, or only an ordained minister, or someone sanctioned by a church for such duties?

5) Does a baptism "count" if it was done by someone from a different Christian church?

6) Can a person who does not know what is going on be baptized?

It is my understanding from my Catholic upbringing that ANY baptized Christian can baptize anyone. And this from the one of the most hierarchical denominations in Christiandom.

I also understand that most if not all trinitarian Christian denominations recognize any other denomination's baptism as valid and sacremental.

When one converts to Catholicism for instance, it is not necessary to be RE-baptized in the RCC,, as long as one has already been baptized in another trinitarian denomination.

Having said that, I do not think that Baptists and some other Protestants recognize infant baptism.

[Divine Insight]

6) Can a person who does not know what is going on be baptized?

The answer to this last one seems to be yes since it is a very popular Christian tradition to baptize babies. Babies most certainly don't know what is going on.

[Divine Insight]

Since you asked this question I decided to take a look at my certificate of baptism.

Yes I have one as I am officially a "Christian" and according to my mother that can never be changed.

Anyway, I just now looked at the date on it. Evidently I was baptized on my second birthday (my actual birth being my first birthday).

So I was baptized at 1 year old. I don't recall the event of course. And I'm quite certain that I had no clue what was going on at the time. But this was clearly practiced by our church to baptize babies.

[Zzyzx]

.

6) Can a person who does not know what is going on be baptized?

The answer to this last one seems to be yes since it is a very popular Christian tradition to baptize babies. Babies most certainly don't know what is going on.

It is my understanding from my Catholic upbringing that ANY baptized Christian can baptize anyone. And this from the one of the most hierarchical denominations in Christiandom.

If (since?) that is the case, a person who is unaware (or unwilling?) can be baptized by a Christian (any Christian?) . . . . or a preacher?

Thus, could a fervent believer or preacher baptize the entire audience at a sporting event, for example, without them being aware or agreeable? Could a televangelist baptize the entire television audience?

Would that audience baptism be adequate to meet a baptismal requirement for admission to heaven?

[cnorman18]

I don't have a dog in this fight, since I'm no longer a Christian; but here's what I learned in seminary.

It depends on the denomination. The Southern Baptists seem to have the strictest rules; not only must you be totally immersed in water at baptism, but the minister who baptizes you must have been totally immersed in water at baptism, too. Infants may not be baptized -- only one who has reached the "age of reason," in my experience about 12 or so, though some churches baptize younger children. The correct words are, "I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost (or Spirit)."

Methodists baptize by sprinkling a little water on the head, though one may opt for total immersion, or "pouring" (where water is poured over the back of the head while one leans back). Any age may be baptized; the words are the same.

Pentecostals typically go in for total immersion after the "age of reason," but the words are different; "I baptize you in the name of Jesus Christ."

The loosest rules of all are, oddly enough, found among the Catholics; any age, any method (sprinkle, pour or immerse), and by any person (one need not even be a Christian!), as long as the correct words are used, as in #1 -- F, S, & HG.

Mormons go in for something called "baptism by proxy," which allows one person to stand in for another -- even for dead ancestors. Thus, they can baptize people who have been dead for centuries, if they like, with or without anyone's permission. It took some doing to get them to stop baptizing long-dead Jews, but I think they've finally stopped. Not than any of us thought it had any real effect; we just regarded it as deeply disrespectful and, well, rude.

There may be other variations, but that's how I learned it. Of course, they swiped the whole thing from the Jewish mikveh, or ritual bath -- used for various reasons, including conversion to Judaism. It has no "magical" component for us -- it's acknowledged to be purely symbolic.

And it's WARM, which is nice.

[McCulloch]

1. WHAT exactly must be done and by WHOM?
2. If a parent sprinkles water on the head of their infant (or dunks them in a bathtub) and intones reverently "I baptize thee . . . ." is that sufficient?
3. Or, must the baptism be done by someone with "credentials?" If so, what credentials are required and who is authorized to decide such matters?
4. Can only a licensed preacher do the job, or only an ordained minister, or someone sanctioned by a church for such duties?
5. Does a baptism "count" if it was done by someone from a different Christian church?
6. Can a person who does not know what is going on be baptized?

Baptism is a ritual washing, symbolic of the subject's own death and burial of self and a spiritual rebirth in Christ. This is very clear from a reading of the passages in the NT that refer to baptism. As such, only a repentant believer is an appropriate subject of baptism. Sprinkling as a substitute for baptism was only introduced when the church felt the need to baptize infants, who apparently needed their inherited sin to be mystically washed away.

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.

Who are the them that Jesus is referring to here? It is the disciples that are to be made of all the nations. Therefore, a disciple is the appropriate subject of baptism. These disciples are then to be taught to obey the things that Jesus taught, including the instruction to teach and to baptize. Therefore, is seems to me, that unless there is a clear passage in the NT restricting who is supposed to be doing the baptizing, it can be any baptized Christian.

For baptism to count, the understanding and intent of the person being baptized must be correct. Any other doctrine regarding this would be a form of legalism.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 6 by Zzyzx]

No, someone must consent. In the RCC, that would be the parents and Godparents in the case of infant baptism. So that would preclude mass baptisms of folks against their will or unawares.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 7 by cnorman18]

Are Methodists like Catholics in that they recognize other denominations baptisms such as the RCC? As long as they use the trinitarian formula?

It is my understanding that the Anglicans, Episcopals, Orthodox and Roman Catholics all recognize each other's baptisms including other Protestant ones such as Methodist and Lutheran. If my understanding is correct, (and please correct me if it is not) the mutual recognition is reciprocal and ecumenical.

I realize Baptists are different in that they do not accept infant Baptisms, and some Evangelical sects such as Assemblies of God also require "informned consent" as Baptism is a symbol of repentance and conversion for them.

Whereas the denominations that practice infant baptism see the event as a "dedication" sacrament and a ritual cleansing of original sin. The sects that are against infant baptism (some of them anyway) have a "dedication" ceremony for babies, instead. For them, baptism would be similar to the "confirmation" sacrament in the RCC, in that in both these cases an aware commitment is required of the recipient.

Also,for anyone who may wonder, a sacrament is a "visible sign of an inward grace" and has mystical power independent even of those who administer the sacrament. Communion from a corrupt priest, for example, would still be valid. Does not depend on the worthiness of the administrator.