Bible Contradictions

[mwtech]

I used to be a Christian and only recently become an atheist after studying the Bible enough to notice the flaws. I believe the Bible in itself to be contradictory enough to prove itself wrong, and I enjoy discussing it with other people, especially Christians who disagree. I would really like to have a one on one debate with any Christian who thinks that they have a logical answer for the contradictions in the Bible. The one rule I have is that you can't make a claim without evidence, whether from the Bible or any other source. I am interested in logical conversation, and I don't believe that any Christian can refute the contradictions I have found without making up some rationalization that has no evidence or logical base.

[LightSeeker]

[Replying to bluethread]

That's fine if you receive the correct "image". The Holy Spirit doesn't speak any language, it provides images and types.

As far as "secret" things, scriptures like "secret James" and "secret John" or "secret knowledge" is not a division of a special knowledge or it wouldn't be openly available. Is the Father not in "secret"? Did Jesus not remove himself from the disciples to commune in "secret"?

Using words defined of men (like Irenaues) has us following a man's proclamation over what each person can receive in "secret" and be rewarded openly. It's a promise from the Son.

We choose which to see, and to follow. To deny that the lack of knowledge, secret or otherwise, doesn't allow another to control us is dangerous to the spirit. It is from a patriarch source. Like the Muslim belief to keep their women ignorant to force control over them.

Just another thought on my behalf.

[LightSeeker]

[Replying to post 129 by edform]

We seek our "vision" of truth with no barricades. We open ourselves to spiritual interpretation.

9) Blessed are you that you did not waver at the sight of Me. For where the mind is there is the treasure.
10) I said to Him, Lord, how does he who sees the vision see it, through the soul or through the spirit?
11) The Savior answered and said, He does not see through the soul nor through the spirit, but the mind that is between the two that is what sees the vision- Gospel of Mary

We choose to follow those scriptures which provide clarity, even outside of Canon to define what's in Canon. This is a path, not a theology. As referenced above, Jesus says:

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.- Matthew 10

So if Jesus said his words are "spirit", where does that leave the soul and body. Mary gives an idea that the mind is torn between the two. In the beginning, man was body and soul. In transgression, he was given the spirit. He now had knowledge and no longer a slave, ie an animal.

Thus began the battle for the soul, the flesh pulling (mind) one way, the spirit another.

John 6
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.


Quicken means "make alive". Unseen yet understood. You are correct, it is what the mind perceives, of seen and unseen. A path of understanding through knowledge, the knowledge (word) the Son came to give.

[LightSeeker]

I have watched the thread move into a direction not intended by the OP.

Out of respect, it's best to remain sidelined to it's challenge, debating contradictions.

As a side note, I do not see the word Atheist any more degrading than the word Heretic. In it's depth, an Atheist is just lacking enough to form a spiritual understanding, so the world is more of a reality. A Heretic is one who defies the Catholic church as being the Celestial Authority.

I am a Heretic by that definition. And I have found many Atheists to do one thing many Christians don't. Being honest with themselves.

[Strider324]

I have watched the thread move into a direction not intended by the OP.

Out of respect, it's best to remain sidelined to it's challenge, debating contradictions.

I agree, the thread has gone far afield. I am still waiting for edforms promised apologetic for the Virgin Birth prophesy.

[bluethread]

[Replying to bluethread]

That's fine if you receive the correct "image". The Holy Spirit doesn't speak any language, it provides images and types.

As far as "secret" things, scriptures like "secret James" and "secret John" or "secret knowledge" is not a division of a special knowledge or it wouldn't be openly available. Is the Father not in "secret"? Did Jesus not remove himself from the disciples to commune in "secret"?

Using words defined of men (like Irenaues) has us following a man's proclamation over what each person can receive in "secret" and be rewarded openly. It's a promise from the Son.

We choose which to see, and to follow. To deny that the lack of knowledge, secret or otherwise, doesn't allow another to control us is dangerous to the spirit. It is from a patriarch source. Like the Muslim belief to keep their women ignorant to force control over them.

Just another thought on my behalf.

Well, if you are going to argue based on special revelation, how would I verify the veracity of that revelation?

[LightSeeker]

[Replying to post 135 by bluethread]

Ah. I can answer in line with the original OP.

IF you feel that all truth resides in the Bible and only the Bible, you combine two very different "theologies" forcing them to become one. There are two masters. Christ said so. Love the one hate the other. Mammon? Where is the root of Mammon? Desire for physical wealth? Money? How about power? Is money not power in a physical world?

The Catholics have included the OT (over Marcions original Canon) because the Jews saw physical wealth as OK. Seeking a nation.

Really? Christ said his kingdom is not of this Earth. Yet the Catholics sainted Constantine, the richest man in the Empire. The Bishops hired mercenaries to fight for them in the Byzantine Empire so they wouldn't kill someone. Blood money?

Then you have a Pope who told men that God told him whoever died while taking Jerusalem from the Muslims would automatically enter heaven. Again, didn't Jesus tell Peter to put his sword down?

This is not revelation in the respect to use the word. This is knowledge to know them by their fruits. The Catholics held the Bible in Latin for over 800 years. Coinciding with the Dark Ages. The Catholics recreated the Holy of Holies. There is wealth there. Physical wealth. They have returned the Pharisee's position, by the confusion existing in the Bible itself.

The extremely wealthy Pope and his archbishops are above the sheep. Closer to God. Hearing him where others cannot. And from those roots, we have the protestants. One man church leaders. Didn't Christ send his disciples in "twos".

Do you really believe this?

To me, it's the ignorant teaching the ignorant. The blind leading the blind. I am responsible for me. They aren't.

The truth exists everywhere. But it is surrounded by pitfalls. Don't fall into the pit but find the truth for oneself. Who do you trust to give truth?

10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?- Luke 11

Is this a promise we can live with? Or do we need a church priest to explain it?

The OPs question is valid. And the answer doesn't appear to be answered by the church or the Bible. Just his being here says something. And if you don't see it, I believe it's because of blindness. I removed my veil long ago.

[mwtech]

I have watched the thread move into a direction not intended by the OP.

Indeed. I intended it to be a debate about single "contradictions." I'm still waiting on edform to reply to my post about temptation.

[Goat]

It appears that your argument isn't as much against Christians as it is Orthodoxy.

I suppose that is true. If you agree with me, then I can't really argue with you, can I. Although, as I indicated in my reply to dianaiad, I don't understand why anyone who doesn't believe the bible is true would practice Christianity anyway.

Ah, but what do you mean by 'True'? I can't answer from a Christian viewpoint on that, but from my viewpoint, the Jewish scripture is a record of my people's search for God. It is FROM God, but it's about the search FOR God. It is a connection to the past, to heritage, to tradition.. to the community. It is a way of looking at life, and of living. The words don't have to be 'historically accurate' to have that connection.

It is 3500 years of tradition, of thought, of pain, tears, joy and celebration. It is a way to look at life, and attempt to put our own lives in perspective with the universe/divine/what ever you want to call it.

It is, however, not blind obedience to the tradition.. because part of the tradition is 'wresting with God'.. or basically figuring out for yourself what is good, and what is not good.

What surprises some Christians, particularly the more fundamentalist, is that one of the teaching techniques is debating the Scripture and Talmud, even disagreeing (and backing up) your arguments with your own Rabbi.

Judaism is more 'works' based as a religion rather than 'faith' based. It is what you do that matters, not what you believe. That also confuses a lot of people who were brought up in the Christian religion, particularity the conservative, fundamentalist types. They seem to expect Judaism to be 'Christianity lite'.

[edform]

I have watched the thread move into a direction not intended by the OP.

Indeed. I intended it to be a debate about single "contradictions." I'm still waiting on edform to reply to my post about temptation.

You must have missed message 103 which I posted on Wednesday.

ed Form

[edform]

I have watched the thread move into a direction not intended by the OP.

Indeed. I intended it to be a debate about single "contradictions." I'm still waiting on edform to reply to my post about temptation.

You must have missed message 103 which I posted on Wednesday.

ed Form

Oops! I've just found your answer to my first post - I'll get back to you.

Ed Form