The trilemma all gods face

[Wootah]

Hi all,

It just seemed like a lot of people on the site were not familiar with the trilemma all gods worth following face. This is the trilemma of is the God good, is it just and is it loving.

So what's the issue.

If the God is good then it is just. If it is not just then it is not good.
If the God is just then it cannot be merciful. if the god wants to show mercy on someone then it is not being just. If it wants to be just then it is not being merciful.
If a Good is merciful then it is not being just and nor is it being good.

No god outside of God resolves this trilemma. For instance Allah is claimed to be just and merciful but never explains how it is being just or merciful when it shows mercy on someone. Worse since we know Allah is claimed to be merciful then we know Allah is not just or good. If a God is not good then there is nothing to trust and so why does anyone follow Allah? What proof is there that Allah actually is merciful.

So in Christianity the trilemma is resolved.

Mankind's sins require justice.
God justly sentences us to hell.
God also loves us and so pays for our sins.
Those that wish to accept that payment for their sins are able to justly go to heaven.
In this way God shows that he is good, just and loving.

Obviously the floor is open to disagreement or refinement of the above.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 39 by Elijah John]

1) God is good. Not God is not good. What do you think hell will be like then. God is life. God doesn't destroy what he created and promised to live forever.

2) the first post deals with Islam and probably with Judaism. Given that I believe that first post I don't even know what a Muslim thinks they are worshipping. It's certainly not a relationship with God they are after. Without Jesus I don't think followers of either of those religions really are interested in bowing down to God. Because if you accept Jesus you accept there was no other way but God.

I'll reply to his post.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 40 by Elijah John]

Jesus death pays for your sins. You will exist in heaven eternally with the knowledge of Jesus's grace.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 37 by FarWanderer]

God is loving us all now. But there is a time when God has to accept that some people don't want a relationship with Him.

My analogy shows that love is present.

Hell is so awful because God is good and hell is not good, not God. It's just logic.

But we could have a god that is not good and so all that means is that there would be hell and no heaven.

[Jashwell]

[Replying to post 43 by Wootah]

Will people be tortured in hell?
If so, why?
This isn't merely *not God*, this is *not God* PLUS torture.

If hell is merely the absence of God, there would be no brimstone, fire, suffering, etc.
It would just be Earth, without the specific group of religious that are correct.

[Zzyzx]

.

Will people be tortured in hell?

There is no assurance that an "afterlife" or "hell" exists as anything more than human imagination and "belief." There is even less assurance that anyone's opinion knows about such things is anything more than speculation.

Some claim to know about "hell" after reading ancient texts by unknown writers or listening to sermons by modern speculators.

[Bede]

[Replying to post 43 by Wootah]

Will people be tortured in hell?
If so, why?
This isn't merely *not God*, this is *not God* PLUS torture.

If hell is merely the absence of God, there would be no brimstone, fire, suffering, etc.
It would just be Earth, without the specific group of religious that are correct.

The absence of God is not merely life as is now, but without God looking down on us going tut! tut!

Hell is not merely the absence of God but of all that God is and brings to us.

There will be no love, only hate.

There will be no friends, only enemies.

There will be no beauty, only ugliness.

There will be no peace, only war.

There will be no pleasure, only suffering.

There will be no ecstasy, only agony.

And so on.

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to post 40 by Elijah John]

Jesus death pays for your sins. You will exist in heaven eternally with the knowledge of Jesus's grace.

IMHO, this ideal is actually quite absurd. We would not exist in heaven with the knowledge of Jesus' grace. Instead we would exist in heaven under the very negative and shameful knowledge that we don't deserve to be there and we have only been given entrance through grace.

In other words, for all of eternity we would forever be viewed by God as ultimately unworthy beings who do not deserve his grace but were granted it anyway.

I most certainly would not want to live for eternity in a state o such eternal shame. This idea of a Christianity Heaven is not even remotely inviting to me. It demands the we forever live in a state of shame with no opportunity to ever exonerate ourselves. Exoneration is not even possible in this religion. It's totally denied, and to even speak of self-exoneration is treated as though it is some sort of evil selfish pride or some such nonsense.

The Christian Heaven is a place of mandatory eternal shame where a person can never be exonerated for their supposed sins against God. For the rest of eternity they must cower down to Jesus and worship him for having given them undeserved grace.

To me that is not even remotely inviting. On the contrary, pure secular atheism where we simply cease to exist when we die is far more inviting.

~~~~~~~

I also don't understand what you hope to gain in this thread Wootah. You are basically arguing for excuses for the behavior of a God that is clearly problematic, and you appear to be suggesting that your proposed excuses exonerates this God of any wrong-doing thus giving credence to it's existence, because you claim that no other religion solves this "Problem".

But the problem is that you clearly have no solved this problem in a way that is convincing to others either. So your claim that Christianity solves this problem is a weak claim apparently standing solely on your own personal opinion.

As I have already stated in earlier posts. There are other religions that do a far better job of creating an image of God that doesn't even need to be excused in terms of morality because they don't have their God doing anything that might even remotely be considered by anyone to be immoral in the first place.

If we were going to choose a religion based on a God who needs no excuses, Christianity would not even be on the list of options.

The fact that you are continually arguing for excuses for the Christian God clearly shows that the religion is highly problematic. You wouldn't need to argue for moral integrity for a God if the God was already morally acceptable.

And the concept of any God who tortures unfortunate souls for eternity cannot be excused by trying to suggest that God "loves" those who he's not torturing. That is not even close to being justification.

[Bede]

IMHO, this ideal is actually quite absurd. We would not exist in heaven with the knowledge of Jesus' grace. Instead we would exist in heaven under the very negative and shameful knowledge that we don't deserve to be there and we have only been given entrance through grace.

In other words, for all of eternity we would forever be viewed by God as ultimately unworthy beings who do not deserve his grace but were granted it anyway.

We would exist in heaven because God loves us and has forgiven us all our sins.

Why would we live there in shame if God loves us and wants communion with us?

[The Quick]

My first post in a while! Hope I haven't been missing out on anything good

Why? This is not a trivial question. Humanity has developed the idea of justice because it provides a framework for a more workable society and it is a recognition that we are fundamentally the same. We would like to build a society based on the ideal of fairness. Justice includes a number of concepts including equality under the law; being rewarded fairly for one's skills and efforts; having the expectation to be punished for seeking to deprive someone else of something that they should fairly have. Why should we want a just society? Cats and bears do not seem to worry to much about justice.
We want a just society because it works better for us collectively and individually, if we can expect fair treatment from other humans. We have to expend less effort protecting our stuff and our lives when there is an expectation that the others will behave justly.
So, does God's wanting to punish us in the afterlife for our sins against him make any sense? Why is it necessary for God to punish humans for breaking the Sabbath or eating pork?

In this entire section you are working under the assumption that justice is only a man-made concept, and then under that same assumption you say that it is therefore not necessary that God be just. You have already rejected out of hand that justice is not a man-made concept. You are begging the question. If it is a man-made concept, then no, God's punishing us for sin is not necessary and does not make any sense. However, it does make sense if you operate under the assumption that justice is an attribute of God's nature to which He is bound to comply. The issue of the punishment fitting the crime may seem terrible to us, as we are finite, sinful beings ourselves, but when you take that God's chiefest of attributes is His perfect holiness, no sin can stand before Him. Any deviance from perfection is intolerable and warrants a punishment that is equal to the offense.

This violates the principle of justice. If I have committed a crime and a just punishment has been passed for me, it would be fundamentally unjust, to the victims of my crimes and to the other criminals facing punishment, if the judge would say, "It's all right, I'll pay for it this time."

Firstly, God is both the victim and the judge. Secondly, that is we have the doctrine of imputed righteousness. We take on the righteousness of Jesus, while He takes on our sins. Sin must be paid for, and it has been. In order to stand in God's presence we must be perfectly righteous, and we are because of Jesus.

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to post 43 by Wootah]

Will people be tortured in hell?
If so, why?
This isn't merely *not God*, this is *not God* PLUS torture.

If hell is merely the absence of God, there would be no brimstone, fire, suffering, etc.
It would just be Earth, without the specific group of religious that are correct.

The absence of God is not merely life as is now, but without God looking down on us going tut! tut!

Hell is not merely the absence of God but of all that God is and brings to us.

There will be no love, only hate.

There will be no friends, only enemies.

There will be no beauty, only ugliness.

There will be no peace, only war.

There will be no pleasure, only suffering.

There will be no ecstasy, only agony.

And so on.

This is actually a statement that proclaims that humans are incapable of love. Period.

And there is a huge problem with this to begin with. If humans are incapable of love, then how in the world are they supposed to love God with all their heart, mind and soul.

This proclamation of yours makes absolutely no sense at all.

You totally strip from humanity any potential for anything. This is an extremely negative and demeaning view of your very own essence since you too are human.