Are there good reasons to believe that a god exists?

Jashwell · Post by **Jashwell** » Sat Jun 14, 2014 1:14 pm

"Are there good reasons to believe that a god exists?"

Doesn't seem like much preamble is needed, but expect this largely to be filled (if at all) with arguments in favour of the existence of a God and counter-arguments. (Because the question is not "Are there good reasons to believe that a god does not exist?"). Though if you do think you have a good argument that shows it is reasonable to believe God does not exist, that is also valid.

This question comes up a lot in other threads where various classical arguments (e.g. ontological, axiological, cosmological) have been given in those threads.

If possible, try not to shotgun debate by raising lots of arguments at once. One sound argument should be sufficient.

kenblogton · Post by **kenblogton** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 12:07 pm

Jashwell wrote: [Replying to post 98 by kenblogton]

"God does not come from nothing or something"
->
"God does not come from nothing", "God does not come from something"
nothing> not something;
"God does not come from not something", "God does not come from something"
->
"God does (not not) come from something", "God does not come from something"
->
"God does come from something","God does not come from something"

I'm not sure what the point of your reply is. To repeat my case in point form:
1. Everything that has a beginning comes from something.
2. If something does not have a beginning, it is eternal.
3. The physical universe had a beginning some 8-15 billion years ago.
4. God is eternal - no beginning - as the infinite regress logic demands, so God comes from neither something or nothing - God is, as the Bible indicates in Exodus 3:14.
kenblogton

Jashwell · Post by **Jashwell** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 12:14 pm

[Replying to post 101 by kenblogton]

Things that do not begin, do not come from something.
By definition, they come from nothing. In other words, they don't come from anything.

Things that do not begin are (at the very least among) the things that come from nothing.

"It doesn't begin - it doesn't come from anything"
MEANS
"It comes from nothing"

You appear to be treating nothing as some kind of empty set or void or some other thing.

instantc · Post by **instantc** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 9:48 pm

Jashwell wrote: You appear to be treating nothing as some kind of empty set or void or some other thing.

An empty set of properties is not a thing, and it's also the most coherent definition for the word nothing.

Jashwell · Post by **Jashwell** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 3:53 am

[Replying to post 103 by instantc]

Nothing means not anything; not something; the absence of anything.

Regardless of whether or not you understand it (you claim it to be less coherent) that is the definition of the word, the etymology of the word (same meaning as as "no thing") and the sensible way of using it.

instantc · Post by **instantc** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 8:39 am

Jashwell wrote: [Replying to post 103 by instantc]
Nothing means not anything...

In other words, an empty set of properties; no properties. Or would you claim that nothing can have properties? If not, you are simply agreeing with my definition.

Jashwell · Post by **Jashwell** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 8:56 am

[Replying to post 105 by instantc]

An empty set is a thing; you can sum an empty set (0); take the product of the entire set (1), but doing this with nothing means not doing it.

Regardless, if an empty set and "no thing" are synonymous, what is your objection?
"Empty set" is certainly not a better definition than "no thing", and is certainly not more coherent.

kenblogton · Post by **kenblogton** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 9:15 am

[Replying to post 102 by Jashwell]

Jashwell said:
Things that do not begin, do not come from something.
By definition, they come from nothing. In other words, they don't come from anything.
kenblogton replied:
You don't understand the logic. Things that begin have a beginning and come from something. Things that have no beginning come from neither something nor nothing, they always are.

Jashwell said:
Things that do not begin are (at the very least among) the things that come from nothing.

"It doesn't begin - it doesn't come from anything"
MEANS
"It comes from nothing"

You appear to be treating nothing as some kind of empty set or void or some other thing.
kenblogton replied:
You continue the confusion noted above.
kenblogton

Jashwell · Post by **Jashwell** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 9:36 am

kenblogton wrote: [Replying to post 102 by Jashwell]

Jashwell said:
Things that do not begin, do not come from something.
By definition, they come from nothing. In other words, they don't come from anything.
kenblogton replied:
You don't understand the logic. Things that begin have a beginning and come from something. Things that have no beginning come from neither something nor nothing, they always are.

Jashwell said:
Things that do not begin are (at the very least among) the things that come from nothing.

"It doesn't begin - it doesn't come from anything"
MEANS
"It comes from nothing"

You appear to be treating nothing as some kind of empty set or void or some other thing.
kenblogton replied:
You continue the confusion noted above.
kenblogton

"Coming from nothing" = "Coming from no thing" = "Not coming from a thing"
Not coming from something is synonymous with coming from nothing.

"What are you doing?" "Nothing"
Means I'm not doing anything, can be abbreviated "I'm not doing"

"Where did you go?" "Nowhere"
Means I didn't go anywhere, can be abbreviated "I didn't go"

"Where are you going?" "Nowhere"
Means I'm not going anywhere, can be abbreviated "I'm not going".

"What do you come from?" "Nothing"
Means I didn't come from anything, can be abbreviated "I didn't come", or "I am eternal"

"Coming from nothing" MEANS "Not coming from something", of which not coming at all is a part.

JoeyKnothead · Post by **JoeyKnothead** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 12:34 pm

From Post 95:

kenblogton wrote: You have a knack for avoiding the main issue.

Seems to be a common side effect of my dullardity. I don't purposely avoid issues I seek to address, even if maybe I don't always understand what it is I am.

kenblogton wrote: The key issue is whether something can come from nothing. If you believe that is the case, show me your proof; if not, admit it

Is this god you propose not a something?

How's that work?

"I got me this god here, now he ain't him a something, so it is, the rules I place on the universe, well he, being so much of a not him a something, well he ain't bound to 'em."

I'll fess up and admit I can't show a claim I made is accurate, if'n you'll do the honor of pointing out which one it is I need to do me all that fessing up about.

Notice, I have not declared that something either it can, or it can't come from nothing.

That seems to be the thing you're needing to do some fessing up about.

"God, well he don't hafta come him from something, but you can bet your last biscuit the universe had to."

To such, I say, show me this God you're so proud of.

Or, as you request of me, admit you can't.

We observe the universe in all its majesty. That is the sole claim I'm willing, and honorably able to defend.

kenblogton wrote: We know the physical universe has a finite existence of some 8-15 billion years. If something can come from nothing, then maybe the physical universe can. Without proof of that, we must rely on the proven something (which has a beginning) comes from something.

We observe an appearance of material within the universe spreading apart, and from such, we infer it was all bunched up at one time. Such a condition in no way means that whatever form that bunching up took, that a god was involved.

kenblogton wrote: If something has no beginning, like God, it has no beginning. It is not something coming from nothing, because it doesn't have a beginning - it is eternal.

I'm unaware of any instance where you've shown this God has no beginning, nor of any instance where you've shown this God to be eternal.

Until such time as you do, I will continue to contend the best explanation for your explanation is personal incredulity combined with anthropomorphic assumptions.

Again we see you place restrictions on the universe that you refuse to place on your God - and that you do so in an arbitrary way.

kenblogton · Post by **kenblogton** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 1:10 pm

Jashwell wrote:
kenblogton wrote: [Replying to post 102 by Jashwell]

Jashwell said:
Things that do not begin, do not come from something.
By definition, they come from nothing. In other words, they don't come from anything.
kenblogton replied:
You don't understand the logic. Things that begin have a beginning and come from something. Things that have no beginning come from neither something nor nothing, they always are.

Jashwell said:
Things that do not begin are (at the very least among) the things that come from nothing.

"It doesn't begin - it doesn't come from anything"
MEANS
"It comes from nothing"

You appear to be treating nothing as some kind of empty set or void or some other thing.
kenblogton replied:
You continue the confusion noted above.
kenblogton
"Coming from nothing" = "Coming from no thing" = "Not coming from a thing"
Not coming from something is synonymous with coming from nothing.

"What are you doing?" "Nothing"
Means I'm not doing anything, can be abbreviated "I'm not doing"

"Where did you go?" "Nowhere"
Means I didn't go anywhere, can be abbreviated "I didn't go"

"Where are you going?" "Nowhere"
Means I'm not going anywhere, can be abbreviated "I'm not going".

"What do you come from?" "Nothing"
Means I didn't come from anything, can be abbreviated "I didn't come", or "I am eternal"

"Coming from nothing" MEANS "Not coming from something", of which not coming at all is a part.

Let me begin by thanking you for agreeing that something cannot come from nothing, that something always comes from something.
But before I say more, let's look at the implications of something coming from something.
Here in our physical universe, something always comes from something, as the laws of physics tell us.
So, if something always come from something, which includes the physical universe, then the physical universe came from something. And if the something which made the physical universe comes from something else, and if that something else comes from something else again, then we get into an infinite regress.
So the something which created the physical logically cannot have come from anything
As you've stated above, ""What do you come from?" "Nothing"
Means I didn't come from anything, can be abbreviated "I didn't come", or "I am eternal""
In other words, God is eternal - without origin, eternal, always.
kenblogton