How does "hope" differ from wishful thinking?

[Zzyzx]

.
Christians and their bible define "faith" as "(Hebrews 11:1, KJV) "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Hoping for things with "evidence not seen" appears to be nothing more than wishing.

Does belief by ancient religion promoters transform "hope" into something more than wishful thinking?

[ttruscott]

...

It seems like every time the God of the Old Testament enters the picture morality takes a nose dive.

~~~~

I realized early on that there is no question that I am the one who judges God, not the other way around. And this is true of all of us.

...

Your quote affirms basic Christian doctrine - when a natural man (non-believer) judges GOD he will always find fault. When he is judged by GOD, he will always reject the judgement as righteous because he rejects the attribution of evil to himself, and so puts it upon GOD as a failure of morality.

This is countered by having their eyes opened to their true state of guilt and and thereby being moved to repentance...these who feel no guilt have no reason to repent or change their behaviour.

Peace, Ted

[Divine Insight]

Your quote affirms basic Christian doctrine - when a natural man (non-believer) judges GOD he will always find fault. When he is judged by GOD, he will always reject the judgement as righteous because he rejects the attribution of evil to himself, and so puts it upon GOD as a failure of morality.

This is countered by having their eyes opened to their true state of guilt and and thereby being moved to repentance...these who feel no guilt have no reason to repent or change their behaviour.

Peace, Ted

I don't doubt this at all Ted.

On the contrary, I absolutely agree that you have indeed nailed the brainwashing scheme used by this cult.

Affirming that this is indeed the cult's brainwashing scheme does not affirm that there is any truth in it.

In fact, Islam is based on precisely this same basic brainwashing scheme.

As far as I can see Ted, it's not that we have different views on this cult. It's just that you have apparently bought into it and there accept that this came from some God and that it is true of you.

I neither believe that an all-wise God would be this underhanded and unethical, neither do I buy into the baloney that I am blinded to righteousness.

The things that you are willing to buy into, I am not.

It's that simple.

And from your position then I must be an unrighteous person who can't even see the evil of my own ways.

To me that is so utterly absurd that it's not even worth discussion must less consideration.

In fact, there is actually an extreme flaw in this.

If this were true then people who do not believe in this religion are indeed BLIND. They are totally UNAWARE that they are choosing evil over good.

But this flies in the fact that they have then chosen this in any way that could be said to constitute FREE WILL.

On the contrary Ted, if they have been blinded to not even being able to recognize that they are evil, then they have been RAPED of any FREE WILL they might have ever possessed.

How can you not see the extreme contradiction in this brainwashing scheme?

You can't simultaneously pin the blame onto people for having willfully and knowingly chosen to reject God and all that is good, whilst also proclaiming that they have been blinded and haven't even got a clue that they are evil.

This brainwashing scheme clearly shoots itself in its own foot.

The only way evil people could be held responsible for being evil is if they made this choice knowingly.

But as you point out, Christian doctrine refuses to even allow for this. Instead it proclaims that people aren't even aware that they are evil and it rapes them of even having the ability to recognize evil or good.

This also flies in the face of the story of Adam and Eve and the forbidden fruit of the knowledge of good and evil.

Christianity is self-contradicting on this very point because it demands that the eyes of men have been open to knowing the difference between good and evil, yet here you are proclaiming that men cannot even know the difference they are being BLINDED to this.

That's an absolute contradiction to the whole principle upon which this religion was first founded upon in the story of the fall from grace and having their eyes opened. Now the religion needs to blind them again in an effort to justify itself.

Moreover, think of Jesus. What did he have to say?

"Father forgive them for they know not what they do"

Yet here you are proclaiming that God is condemning us precisely because we have been blinded and do not even have the ability to know what we do is wrong.

~~~~~

Ted this is a religion that has made so many excuses for itself that it has come full-circle denying it's own original premises and foundations.

It's circular nonsense. Proof positive that it can be nothing more than the inconsistent and utterly absurd superstitions of men. Men who made so many excuses for this religion they ended up shooting themselves in their own feet repeatedly.

There is no prayer in hell that this religion can be true. It necessarily has to be false. It's way too self-violating.

[Zzyzx]

.

Your quote affirms basic Christian doctrine - when a natural man (non-believer) judges GOD he will always find fault. When he is judged by GOD, he will always reject the judgement as righteous because he rejects the attribution of evil to himself, and so puts it upon GOD as a failure of morality.

This is countered by having their eyes opened to their true state of guilt and and thereby being moved to repentance...these who feel no guilt have no reason to repent or change their behaviour.

Moderator Warning

This post is an example of preaching " which may be appropriate in Holy Huddle sub-forum but NOT in Christianity and Apologetics sub-forum. Kindly debate the topic without presenting any religious dogma as truth or as support for an argument.

Please review the Rules.
______________

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Any challenges or replies to moderator warnings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

[ttruscott]

...

If this were true then people who do not believe in this religion are indeed BLIND. They are totally UNAWARE that they are choosing evil over good.

But this flies in the fact that they have then chosen this in any way that could be said to constitute FREE WILL.

On the contrary Ted, if they have been blinded to not even being able to recognize that they are evil, then they have been RAPED of any FREE WILL they might have ever possessed.


...

Yes, Christian doctrine affirms that they have indeed been blinded and are to some degree unaware of choosing evil over good, at least in the context of their being at heart, totally evil and depraved...they will always interpret their lives as better that that.

But you seem to misunderstand the cause of blindness in Christianity...it was by a free will decision to rebel against, reject GOD or HIS plan, though some cults believe GOD created us this way...<sigh>.

The blind are self created as blind against all the warnings that GOD could give to help them resist making the decision that would end in their blindness. No one raped their will to make them blind but by their choice to oppose GOD, they entered into the natural consequences of being rendered blind to moral reality.

Your first sentence in the chosen quote claims that if they are blind they do not know it AND THEN in the second sentence uses that fact as a proof they therefore could not have gotten blind by their free will choice, a false conclusion not based on the premise.

Because they are blind and because they cannot know they are bind without exterior proof but will always reject their sinfulness, unless they are under GOD's promise to save them from that fix, they will remain eternally blind and evil.

This is the nature of Christian blindness to sin which underlies our need to have our eyes opened.

Peace, Ted

[Wootah]

Your quote affirms basic Christian doctrine - when a natural man (non-believer) judges GOD he will always find fault. When he is judged by GOD, he will always reject the judgement as righteous because he rejects the attribution of evil to himself, and so puts it upon GOD as a failure of morality.

This is countered by having their eyes opened to their true state of guilt and and thereby being moved to repentance...these who feel no guilt have no reason to repent or change their behaviour.

Peace, Ted

I don't doubt this at all Ted.

On the contrary, I absolutely agree that you have indeed nailed the brainwashing scheme used by this cult.

Affirming that this is indeed the cult's brainwashing scheme does not affirm that there is any truth in it.

In fact, Islam is based on precisely this same basic brainwashing scheme.

As far as I can see Ted, it's not that we have different views on this cult. It's just that you have apparently bought into it and there accept that this came from some God and that it is true of you.

I neither believe that an all-wise God would be this underhanded and unethical, neither do I buy into the baloney that I am blinded to righteousness.

The things that you are willing to buy into, I am not.

It's that simple.

And from your position then I must be an unrighteous person who can't even see the evil of my own ways.

To me that is so utterly absurd that it's not even worth discussion must less consideration.

In fact, there is actually an extreme flaw in this.

If this were true then people who do not believe in this religion are indeed BLIND. They are totally UNAWARE that they are choosing evil over good.

But this flies in the fact that they have then chosen this in any way that could be said to constitute FREE WILL.

On the contrary Ted, if they have been blinded to not even being able to recognize that they are evil, then they have been RAPED of any FREE WILL they might have ever possessed.

How can you not see the extreme contradiction in this brainwashing scheme?

You can't simultaneously pin the blame onto people for having willfully and knowingly chosen to reject God and all that is good, whilst also proclaiming that they have been blinded and haven't even got a clue that they are evil.

This brainwashing scheme clearly shoots itself in its own foot.

The only way evil people could be held responsible for being evil is if they made this choice knowingly.

But as you point out, Christian doctrine refuses to even allow for this. Instead it proclaims that people aren't even aware that they are evil and it rapes them of even having the ability to recognize evil or good.

This also flies in the face of the story of Adam and Eve and the forbidden fruit of the knowledge of good and evil.

Christianity is self-contradicting on this very point because it demands that the eyes of men have been open to knowing the difference between good and evil, yet here you are proclaiming that men cannot even know the difference they are being BLINDED to this.

That's an absolute contradiction to the whole principle upon which this religion was first founded upon in the story of the fall from grace and having their eyes opened. Now the religion needs to blind them again in an effort to justify itself.

Moreover, think of Jesus. What did he have to say?

"Father forgive them for they know not what they do"

Yet here you are proclaiming that God is condemning us precisely because we have been blinded and do not even have the ability to know what we do is wrong.

~~~~~

Ted this is a religion that has made so many excuses for itself that it has come full-circle denying it's own original premises and foundations.

It's circular nonsense. Proof positive that it can be nothing more than the inconsistent and utterly absurd superstitions of men. Men who made so many excuses for this religion they ended up shooting themselves in their own feet repeatedly.

There is no prayer in hell that this religion can be true. It necessarily has to be false. It's way too self-violating.

Moderator Warning

Hi DI,

Your posts border on ranting/preaching far too often.

Please confine your posts to the topic. Consider what the original post is asking to discuss and stick to that topic. In this case hope vs wishful thinking. I and many others probably thought this topic would be of interest and now find it discussing entirely unrelated subject matter.

Please stop using the phrase brain washing. It is very easy to throw accusations of brain washing and much harder to prove it - it is an ad hominem. It is an accusation that can be hurled at anyone, even at you, and we want the forum to be much friendly than this.

Don't use the word rape to describe what a belief system does. Rape is a violent sexual act and can be trivialised greatly by such misuse. This is similar to people using the phrase homophobe, you don't realise how belittling such a phrase is to someone who has a phobia. But really it just alludes to the emotional direction of your post and why it violated the ranting guideline.

The forum is for discussion, not sermons. When we present our views as statements they become preaching/ranting violations.


Please review our Rules.

______________

Moderator warnings count as a strike against users. Additional violations in the future may warrant a final warning. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

[connermt]

[Replying to post 10 by dianaiad]

I do wish you would stop defining Christianity for Christians.

Why? Christians can't decide among themselves so maybe they need some help?

Since you are not one, you don't get a vote.

Says who, you?
It's great when christians think they get to decide their own lives AND the lives of others who disagree with them, yet cry foul when that same principle is applied towards them! Hypocrisy know no bounds
So who gets to decide these things?
You?
Me?
Bob?
The local church board?
The pope?
God?
Who?