The Definition of Atheism According To...

[WinePusher]

The definition of atheism according to an internet debater:

Actually, EJ, the Atheist position (according to Atheists -- not Theists) is "I do not believe in gods" -- period -- full stop.

SOME Atheists (often referred to as Hard Atheists) deny the existence of "gods" but that is NOT required in Atheism -- which means "Without belief in gods."

Theists often attempt to inject denial of gods into a definition of Atheism; however, that is just another straw man attempt. http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 2&start=10

The definition of atheism according to Carl Sagan:

An atheist is someone who is certain that God does not exist, someone who has compelling evidence against the existence of God. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_sagan#Social_concerns

The definition of atheism according to the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy:

Atheism means the negation of theism, the denial of the existence of God. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/atheism-agnosticism/

The definition of atheism according to Dictionary.com:

1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheism?s=t

Questions for debate:

1) What is the definition of atheism?

2) When considering the definition of atheism, should one rely on the opinions of an internet debater or the opinions of Carl Sagan, the Stanford Encyclopedia and the dictionary?

Theists often attempt to inject denial of gods into a definition of Atheism; however, that is just another straw man attempt.

3) Are Carl Sagan, the Stanford Encyclopedia and the dictionary 'theists' and 'theistic sources?' Are Carl Sagan, the Stanford Encyclopedia and the dictionary guilty of straw man attempts?

[Jashwell]

[Replying to post 169 by Zzyzx]

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/defin ... ish/denial
Denial: The action of denying something
Deny: State that one refuses to admit the truth or existence of.
Refuse: Indicate or show that one is not willing to do something.

Other dictionaries have similar definitions.
Denying the truth a claim is not declaring it's falsity, it's not choosing to accept it's truthfulness.

http://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=Denial
American Heritage Dictionary:
A refusal to grant the truth of a statement or allegation
A refusal to accept or believe something, such as a doctrine or belie

[dianaiad]

[quote="WinePusher"]

...Unfortunately, I shouldn't have trusted you... Do you know what the word 'or' means in this case?....


Moderator Comment

You could have made your points herewithout injecting personal comments and sarcasm. This is the last 'comment' you will receive. The next note will be a warning, and may result in more stringent moderator action.

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[dianaiad]

I went to the Oxford link Danmark posted and it does in fact provide a definition of "disbelief" as being a "lack of faith." I saw it with my own eyes.

But WinePusher says, "Wrong."

I've never seen so many category errors and asinine arguments from incredulity in all my life.

Moderator Comment

"I've never seen so many category errors and arguments from incredulity in all my life" would be well within the forum rules. Adding 'asinine' could be considered a personal comment.

Please review the Rules.


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Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

[Star]

I've never seen so many category errors and arguments from incredulity in all my life. Here's some examples. I'll paraphrase:

Category error eg. "Agnosticism and soft atheism are one in the same."

Argument from incredulity eg. "I don't understand how you can lack a belief, so it must not be true."

I almost forgot the false dichotomy that belief can only be one of two ways, ie. "You either believe something exists, or you believe something doesn't exist, and there can't be a third category for lack of belief." And this often leads to the all-too-common strawman, "You believe god doesn't exist."

This issue comes up frequently in theist vs. atheist debates in general. I worry the underlying motivation is to set the stage for shifting the burden fallacies. An agnostic soft atheist doesn't bear any burden, which often frustrates gnostic apologists.

[wiploc]

1. I BELIEVE that Santa is coming to town (theists)
2. I don't believe that Santa is coming to town (soft atheists)
3. I BELIEVE that Santa is NOT coming to town (hard atheists)

All atheists don't believe that Santa is coming to town. The weak atheists don't believe that he's coming and also don't believe that he's not coming.

[WinePusher]

[Replying to post 164 by Jashwell]

Before we continue I want a full retraction of these statements on record:

Oxford English Dictionary: Disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

Are you suggesting that the Oxford English Dictionary, and dictionary.com (a source you gave) are not reputable sources?

We have to competing definitions. One from the more respected OED, one from the American Heritage Dictionary.

Do you accept that many self-professed atheists and multiple dictionaries including the Oxford English Dictionary; the most well respected English dictionary; profess lack of belief rather than belief to the contrary?

The OED (Oxford English Dictionary) was the basis for your position so I would like to know, how did you access the OED? Do you have a subscription or do you have access to an academic library? Because the definition you claim is from the OED is flat out wrong:

According to Jashwell, the OED definition is: Disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods. I looked through the OED and could not find the 'lack of belief' definition. Where did you get it from? Because you clearly did not get it from the actual OED, yet you claim you did. Please retract it.

According to the actual OED, the definition is:
-Atheist: 1) One who denies or disbelieves the existence of a God. 2) One who practically denies the existence of a God by disregard of moral obligation to Him; a godless man.
-Atheism: Disbelief in, or denial of, the existence of a God. Also, Disregard of duty to God, godlessness (practical atheism).

Similarly, according to Danmark, the OED definition of 'disbelief' is lack of faith in something.

According to the actual OED, the definition is:
-Disbelief (N): The action or an act of disbelieving; mental rejection of a statement or assertion; positive unbelief.
-Disbelieve (V): Not to believe or credit; to refuse credence to: / a. a statement or (alleged) fact: To reject the truth or reality of. (With simple obj. or obj. clause.)

Like I said, we all make mistakes and I've made quite a few mistakes during my time on here. When I do make a mistake, I accept the correction and admit my mistake. Can you and Danmark please do the same so that readers will not believe the inaccurate OED definitions you've provided.

[Jashwell]

[Replying to post 175 by WinePusher]
Sure, retract everything.
Going by what you've now said

-Atheism: Disbelief in, or denial of, the existence of a God.
-Disbelieve (V): Not to believe or credit

I could point out how "not to believe" is to "lack belief in", but rather than do that I'll get straight to the point.

Weak atheists - what you call agnostics - don't believe in the existence of a god.
Therefore they're atheists, as they disbelieve (not believe) in the existence of a God.

Implicit atheists - those who have never come across the idea of theism - are also atheists by this definition.

QED?

[WinePusher]

Sure, retract everything.

Thank you.

Going by what you've now said

-Atheism: Disbelief in, or denial of, the existence of a God.
-Disbelieve (V): Not to believe or credit

I could point out how "not to believe" is to "lack belief in", but rather than do that I'll get straight to the point.

If I were to say 'I lack belief in the toothfairy' that would mean that I have no particular views regarding the toothfairies existence. I do not believe one way or another, I lack belief altogether. This is why it is inappropriate to define atheists this way, because clearly atheists do have beliefs about the existence of God.

Weak atheists - what you call agnostics - don't believe in the existence of a god. Therefore they're atheists, as they disbelieve (not believe) in the existence of a God.

Right, that's what I've been saying. Atheists don't believe in the existence of God, just like how I don't believe in the existence of the tooth fairy. Neither of us 'lacks belief' altogether.

And as for the whole 'burden of proof' thing, the bottom line is that if you're going to participate in a debate you automatically have a burden of proof. Plain and simple. My burden is twofold, to prove my claims and to my the claims of my opponent to be wrong. So please stop saying that I'm trying to shift the burden of proof.

Implicit atheists - those who have never come across the idea of theism - are also atheists by this definition.

So according to this definition, all of us our atheists during our baby years because we have never come across the idea of theism. Is this a position you're prepared to defend?

[Jashwell]

[Replying to post 177 by WinePusher]

Lacking belief = not having a belief
(the idea that you'd argue that lacking X means something OTHER than not having X seems personally absurd)

"Exist" is implicit from one of the contexts of belief
If you were to say you lack belief in the tooth fairy, it means you don't have the view that the tooth fairy exists / is real (I'm not sure about the OED atm, but check it's definition of belief - American Heritage: "Mental acceptance of and conviction in the truth, actuality, or validity of something")
Someone who believes the tooth fairy doesn't exist - STILL lacks belief in the tooth fairy, it's the (non-existence of the ToothFairy) they don't lack belief in.


"Right, that's what I've been saying. Atheists don't believe in the existence of God, just like how I don't believe in the existence of the tooth fairy. Neither of us 'lacks belief' altogether. "
Atheists that don't believe in the existence of the tooth fairy can still lack belief in the non-existence of the tooth fairy. I don't believe X means "I don't hold the belief X".
Otherwise, you'd be arguing that those who don't believe X must believe not X, in which case the odd/even scenario can be brought up again.


The burden of proof isn't on weak atheists. They lack belief "both ways". They don't believe in the non-existence of God, and they don't believe in the existence of God. The burden of proof is on strong atheists - those that literally hold the belief that no gods exist - and theists.


Yes, according to the definition you gave babies are atheists too. If you find this incredulous, that's special pleading (you don't find calling them agnostics incredulous).

I'm prepared to defend explicit weak atheism, which you've been objecting to all this time by giving sources in favour of it. I'm not prepared to defend implicit weak atheism (that includes babies for instance), nor do I care to.

[Zzyzx]

.

If I were to say 'I lack belief in the toothfairy' that would mean that I have no particular views regarding the toothfairies existence. I do not believe one way or another, I lack belief altogether. This is why it is inappropriate to define atheists this way, because clearly atheists do have beliefs about the existence of God. [Bold added]

ONLY IN YOUR MIND.

Unless you are omniscient or a mind reader you do not know what another individual's beliefs are until you ASK them personally.

MANY Atheists have "no particular views regarding tooth fairies" OR "gods." The opinion of one or some Atheists is NOT binding on others.


Edited to add: No one individual Atheist and no organization speaks for all Atheists any more than the Pope and the RCC speak for all Christians.