Why allow Satan and Co. to interact with this universe?

[agnosticatheist]

Why does God allow Satan and demons to interact with this universe?

Why did he create a universe such that Satan, demons, and the human rulers of this Earth, have so many tools to corrupt and manipulate humans?

Just take the internet alone...Sure, the internet can be used for good too. But, due to the nature of reality, it seems that more harm than good can come from stuff such as the internet.

Wouldn't a God who loves his creation and doesn't want to see them corrupted, try to minimize damage?

It seems that a universe without the internet would still allow for that all-crucial free will test, it would just make it much more difficult for Satan and Co. to cause as much damage as they do now.

If rebelling in Heaven against God was such a crime and they had to be sent to Hell and not wiped out of existence, why not immediately send them to Hell and prevent them from interacting with this universe in any way, shape, or form?

Their ability to interact with this universe seems excessive, and perhaps down right diabolical when you consider that we are still free creatures with the ability to do plenty of evil on our own without Satan and Co. ever being involved.

[HumbleDisciple]

[Replying to post 1 by agnosticatheist]

You presume that God would create a world where all beings were perfect.

But that presumption is not true. For if He did, then all beings would be Gods, and it would violate His own nature (a defining attribute of which He is the only God) and thus He did not do it. He *could* do it. But He will not do it, for it violates His own nature, and His own glory.

All created beings are thus, by default and definition, less than perfect. And all it takes is an inkling shy of perfection for sin to enter into the world. And once sin has entered into the world, it is very difficult to stop its corruption. Infact, corruption spirals.

Thus, it is a requirement that such a thing exist in this world....in order for this world to exist.

The existence of demons and fallen angels and wicked men...is not due to a lack of God, or a lack of His power and authority....but as a necessity for creation to exist at all.

What would heaven and earth be like if every single entity had the exact replica character qualities as God? What good would that serve God? What glory or benefit would it bring to His name if every being *was* Him? What kind of company would He have with replicas of Himself that were not unique in their own ways?

Our uniquenesses can only develop through our weaknesses. If we were perfect, we would be God, and we would not be unique. Thus it is, by definition, necessary that we obtain our uniquenesses through our faults and failures...which are the cause of evil in this world.

[Korah]

[Replying to HumbleDisciple]
Nicely put, by both the above debaters.
Neither of you, however, seem to have considered another alternative.
You both presuppose that God if God must have created everything that is. This in nonsense in terms of the OP that presumes to show us that no God exists, as instead something like God might exist as a partial-Creator or be unable or unknowing of how to create the perfect world you presume He would have to have created.

To HD I find your argument impressive, but awfully stuffy. That's just not the way life seems to be, so the type of "perfect" God you presume just does not exist--unless He did not Himself create all that is. That so much of creation is imperfect is quite an argument for this Perfect God not having created all that is. Our world is so imperfect that it must be a result of your Perfect God still working in contention with imperfection He did not create.

So to aa I say you presume God created Satan and all evil creatures, when they may have arisen apart from God's initiative. Satan may have rule in certain realms under certain conditions. Christians declare that salvation comes from recognizing that the Atonement robbed Satan of ultimate power over us. God is greater and Satan's power is ever diminishing.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 1 by agnosticatheist]

Another suggestion might be that God calculated the optimum number of humans that could be saved and that plan involved Satan.

I certainly acknowledge that evil and sin has led me to God as a protector as much as God's goodness. In fact I didn't know about about the depth of God's goodness until afterwards.

God demonstrating He is more powerful and that His plan wins may he necessary to ensuring that the new heaven and new earth don't corrupt as well.

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 1 by agnosticatheist]

My basic answer is the same as in why does GOD allow evil acts if sin is established by intent only...

The temporarily evil sinful elect need to inter-act with the eternally evil folk to learn the necessity of their judgment.

Peace, Ted

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to post 1 by agnosticatheist]

My basic answer is the same as in why does GOD allow evil acts if sin is established by intent only...

The temporarily evil sinful elect need to inter-act with the eternally evil folk to learn the necessity of their judgment.

Peace, Ted

Does this truly make any sense Ted?

Does that idea of a temporary evil sinful "elect" make any sense?

And what sense does it even make to speak of "eternally evil folk"?

All of these "souls" were supposedly created by this God creator anyway.

Let's think about this.

A supposedly "eternally evil person" would necessarily (by this theistic definition) be a person who willfully chooses to be evil and to love evil and reject all that is good.

Such a person, if they did exist would obviously love to go to an eternal hell. That would be their heaven.

Moreover, this also excludes the possibility of any non-eternally evil person from going to hell.

In other words, there could be no person in hell who actually doesn't love being there and has chosen that end result via their own free will choice.

Therefore it makes absolutely no sense to even speak of hell as being a punishment for people who wouldn't like to be there. If they wouldn't like to be there then they are clearly not in love with evil and they haven't rejected all that is good.

In fact, hell is often depicted by artists as a place where basically GOOD SOULS are in a constant state of anguish wishing they could escape the torments of hell.

Clearly not people who are eternally evil and who have rejected all that is good in favor of all that is evil.

This whole mythological folklore is absurd.

The only way that you could have people going to hell who wouldn't want to be there is if you sent good people to hell for some reason or another.

So this idea that there exist the "Temporary evil sinful elect" versus the "Eternally evil folk", can be nothing more than superstitious folklore that doesn't even begin to make any sense.

It makes for good bedtime stories to tell to children to make they fear going to hell if they aren't good. Just like telling them that Santa Claus will bring them a lump of coal if they aren't good. But does this really work on adults?

Obviously it does, but perhaps a better question is, "Why does it work on adults?"

Shouldn't adults know better?

Moreover, if there only exist these two groups of people (those who are temporarily evil versus those who are eternally evil) why would anyone be convinced that they are in the group of the eternally evil? Unless of course they truly feel that way.

But ironically based on your religious beliefs it would be impossible for me to go to hell because I know that I'm nowhere near "eternally evil". In fact, you'd have a hard time even convincing me that there was ever a time when I was even temporarily evil.

I may have done things that could technically be considered a "sin" according to the Bible, but I personally can't see where many of those things would be "evil".

For example, when I was sexually attracted to a hot sexy girl when I was a young hormone-driven boy.

Was that evil?

Pft.

No way!

On the contrary the human race would have died out a very long time ago if the drive to procreate is not as natural as it is.

The things this religion pins onto people in an attempt to proclaim that they are "evil" is, quite frankly, rather pathetic.

Do you think Satan is responsible for causing young men to be sexually attracted to young women?

And do you honestly believe that this is indeed an "evil" thing?

[Yahu]

Why does God allow Satan and demons to interact with this universe?

Why did he create a universe such that Satan, demons, and the human rulers of this Earth, have so many tools to corrupt and manipulate humans?

Just take the internet alone...Sure, the internet can be used for good too. But, due to the nature of reality, it seems that more harm than good can come from stuff such as the internet.

Wouldn't a God who loves his creation and doesn't want to see them corrupted, try to minimize damage?

It seems that a universe without the internet would still allow for that all-crucial free will test, it would just make it much more difficult for Satan and Co. to cause as much damage as they do now.

If rebelling in Heaven against God was such a crime and they had to be sent to Hell and not wiped out of existence, why not immediately send them to Hell and prevent them from interacting with this universe in any way, shape, or form?

Their ability to interact with this universe seems excessive, and perhaps down right diabolical when you consider that we are still free creatures with the ability to do plenty of evil on our own without Satan and Co. ever being involved.

Why do you assume that Yah (God) controls everything?

He GAVE over dominion on the earth to Adam. Yah no longer has dominion here, we do.

As to why would He allow such a thing? The answer to that is easy. This life is our job interview for our position in eternity. We have to have evil to gain in glory by overcoming evil. Without overcoming evil, there is no glory to be earned.

Entrance into the kingdom is a gift to the believers. Positions within the kingdom are earned by overcoming error. (See Rev 2&3.)

You are also assuming the non-scriptural myth about who and what HaSatan is and that there was a rebellion in heaven. That isn't scriptural. It is based on Augustinian doctrinal positions that have been spread as fact within Christianity.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 7 by Yahu]

How much glory do you need to gain to enter heaven?

[Yahu]

[Replying to post 8 by Wootah]

You can NOT earn your salvation!

Salvation is a gift. You could literally crawl into the kingdom in your spiritual diapers. You still get in but who wants to be a beggar on the streets of gold for eternity?

You have to earn your robes of righteousness and your position within the kingdom. The GREATEST level of overcomers earn a position within the throne room to share in positions of great authority.

The struggle isn't to gain salvation by a lifetime of RELIGION. Salvation is easy. You can get saved on your death bed for example. You can get saved then live a life of the flesh. Of course there are consequences and those consequences are eternal.

It is in overcoming error and false doctrine that we grow in spiritual maturity and gain rewards and position within the kingdom.

So many christians confuse Salvation with Sanctification and have no concept of Glorification.

Salvation is a 'one time event'. Sanctification is your spiritual growth process to overcome error and flesh in your life. Glorification is the rewards gained for the level of sanctification achieved in this life.

Salvation is of the 'spirit'. Sanctification is of the soul or sometimes called 'salvation of the soul'. Glorification is the salvation of the body to our eternal state.

[Yahu]

How much glory do you need to gain to enter heaven?

So the answer is NONE!