Predistination

[TQWcS]

If God has already chosen who will go to heaven or hell, which is what the advocates of predistination agrue, then why does it matter what we choose to do in this life?

I don't agree with this view. I would just like to see someone who can properly justify this claim.

[ST88]

I don't know if there are very many people who believe in the strict view of Predestination as you describe. A more current view seems to be that God doesn't choose in the Gnostic or Calvinist sense who will be rewarded in Heaven, only that he knows who it will be.

Now, it is possible to argue that since God put the whole thing in motion, he must have chosen who will burn and who will sing, but it is also possible to argue that his intentions were not personal, that there was some maelstrom of moral activity that we are all caught up in -- and that he saw the results of his actions instantaneously, though it has taken many years for them to play out.

As for why we should still choose to do things -- God is unknowable, so even if there is a future already written, the knowledge of it is so unreachable as to be unfathomable to our little minds. Even if we all live under the illusion of free will, we are nevetheless part of the illusion and are therefore unable to perceive its illusiveness. Therefore, our free will remains intact, and our choices still matter.

[cpoteet]

And they were exceedingly astonished, and said to him, "Then who can be saved?" Jesus looked at them and said, "With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God." Mark 10:26-27

I don't know if there are very many people who believe in the strict view of Predestination as you describe. A more current view seems to be that God doesn't choose in the Gnostic or Calvinist sense who will be rewarded in Heaven, only that he knows who it will be.

The current view you are talking about is Arminianism, and that modern view is illogical and un-biblical. Arminanists believe that we were not totally depraved from Adam's fall, and we have the autonomy to choose or deny Christ. They also believe that God's grace is resistable (!) and that you can lose your salvation. This view is inconsistent, and has only gained prominence in the last two centuries.

If God has already chosen who will go to heaven or hell, which is what the advocates of predistination agrue, then why does it matter what we choose to do in this life?

Romans 9:19-24
You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory-- even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

It does matter, because we are responsible. We are reponsible, because even though everything is determined and foreknown but God--we maintain freedom within our nature. This is the doctrine of Compatibilism; for more info read the following article:

freedom of the will - R.C. Sproul

"How the providence of God works out these matters of concurrence is mysterious but not contradictory. There is nothing that is rationally incompatible about God's sovereignty and human freedom. Scripture clearly teaches that God is sovereign and that man is responsible. Neither teaching is false. I am not proposing that freedom and sovereignty are not contradictions simply because the Bible teaches both. I am saying that the two concepts are not contradictory because they are not mutually exclusive concepts. Divine sovereignty and human autonomy would be mutually exclusive. If God is sovereign man could not be autonomous. If man is autonomous God could not be sovereign."

Calvinism/Reformed Theology/Doctrines of Grace are the correct interpretation of Scripture. First, I will walk through the points:

(1) Man is totally depraved from the fall of Adam:

Romans 5:12-14
Just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come."

From this, we are unable to choose God, it is even said in Scripture that none look for him (Romans 3:10-11). God's intervention is necessary or we are to perish. This is also phrased: "Spiritual Death."

(2) God elects those he chooses, and he did so before the foundation of the world. This election was not based on any foreseen obedience or choice; it is the sole regenerating grace of God.

Ephesians 1:3-12
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.

Romans 9:15-16
For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

John 17:9
I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.

(3) Atonement (salvation) is limited to those God chose. In other words, Christ died for the elect. We are imputed with Christ's righteousness from God's will in election and limited atonement.

John 11:51-52
He did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, and not for the nation only, but also to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.

John 10:15
"I lay down my life for the sheep."

(4) God's grace is not resistable. God makes two calls the outward (that can be rejected because He is not delivering his Spirit) and the inward call which is led by that Spirit--that is irresistable.

"Conversion Involves Miraculous Regeneration, Not A Mere Decision"

1 Thessalonians 1:4-5
For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit.

Colossians 2:13
When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him.

(5) Last, but certainly not least, we are secure in our salvation. Once we are chosen, we are imputed with Christ's righteousness (justified), and we are secure to receive glorification (Romans 8:28-30).

John 10:27-28
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish.

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."

I don't agree with this view. I would just like to see someone who can properly justify this claim.

Well, now you had someone properly justify this claim. Try again looking at it.

Resources

1. Tulipedia
2. Calvinism (Wikipedia)
3. Monergism.com
4. Grace Online Library
5. DesiringGod.org

[DTho]

Dang.

I thought that said “Prestidigitation!” I viewed the thread hoping to get some tips on how to properly palm a coin!

-DT

P.S. Does the management allow for the, occasional, “funny” post, or have I, yet again, broken a rule?

P.P.S. I mean, hey, come on, religion is a very “touchy” subject! Isn’t the occasional “tension breaker” a veritable requirement? It is, IMHO.

[bernee51]

(2) God elects those he chooses, and he did so before the foundation of the world. This election was not based on any foreseen obedience or choice; it is the sole regenerating grace of God.

so if I am not 'chosen' it makes no difference whether or not "I believe' nor what actions I take in this world. God, however, does know what my actions will be. Am I reading this correctly?

(3) Atonement (salvation) is limited to those God chose. In other words, Christ died for the elect. We are imputed with Christ's righteousness from God's will in election and limited atonement.

all sounds very discretionary - and unfair on those who are not 'elect'.

I guess the 'unelect' are sort of like god's canon fodder

I don't agree with this view. I would just like to see someone who can properly justify this claim.

Well, now you had someone properly justify this claim. Try again looking at it.

I don't feel it is justified. You have justified, from one book of myth, a claim for predestination. It still does not answer the question...if there is an elect and unelect what should it matter what we do in life. Nothing can change my status in this regard.

[cpoteet]

so if I am not 'chosen' it makes no difference whether or not "I believe' nor what actions I take in this world. God, however, does know what my actions will be. Am I reading this correctly?

We are responsible (per my expounding on compatibilism).

Now, if I were to declare that man was so free to act that there was no control of God over his actions, I should be driven very near to atheism; and if, on the other hand, I should declare that God so over-rules all things that man is not free enough to be responsible, I should be driven at once into Antinomianism or fatalism. That God predestines, and yet that man is responsible, are two facts that few can see clearly. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory, but they are not. The fault is in our weak judgment. Two truths cannot be contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one part of the Bible that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find, in another Scripture, that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is only my folly that leads me to imagine that these two truths can ever contradict each other.

all sounds very discretionary - and unfair on those who are not 'elect'.

So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory-- even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
Romans 9:18-24

I don't feel it is justified. You have justified, from one book of myth, a claim for predestination. It still does not answer the question...if there is an elect and unelect what should it matter what we do in life. Nothing can change my status in this regard.

You still are not backing up why it "is a book of myth." You use no logic, rational, or educated opinion. Try again.

[ENIGMA]

Now, if I were to declare that man was so free to act that there was no control of God over his actions, I should be driven very near to atheism; and if, on the other hand, I should declare that God so over-rules all things that man is not free enough to be responsible, I should be driven at once into Antinomianism or fatalism. That God predestines, and yet that man is responsible, are two facts that few can see clearly. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory, but they are not. The fault is in our weak judgment. Two truths cannot be contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one part of the Bible that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find, in another Scripture, that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is only my folly that leads me to imagine that these two truths can ever contradict each other.

With the implicit assumption that all scripture is infallible, which bernee51 and I at least, don't share. Unless a set of circumstances in which both man is responsible for his actions and God can see and alter what we consider to be the future can be illustrated to be plausible, it is far more reasonable to assume that one of the so-called "Truths" is untrue.

all sounds very discretionary - and unfair on those who are not 'elect'.

So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory-- even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
Romans 9:18-24

I honestly hope the guy who made the core shielding for a nuclear reactor doesn't take this idea and put it into practice.

"I made it, that means I can make it go BOOM!!!"

It also kills the notion of free-will since pots have no will to speak of.

I don't feel it is justified. You have justified, from one book of myth, a claim for predestination. It still does not answer the question...if there is an elect and unelect what should it matter what we do in life. Nothing can change my status in this regard.

You still are not backing up why it "is a book of myth." You use no logic, rational, or educated opinion. Try again.

Here is how I hereby back up that the Bible is a book of myth, using the same evidentiary criteria that is apparently required for the Bible:

The List of Enigma:
1) Everything on the List of Enigma is True.
2) The Bible is False.
3) Enigma Likes All Types of Pizza.
4) Enigma Hates All Types of Pizza.

*Commentary on the List*
*) Obviously #3 and #4 must be both true because of #1, and it is only our poor ability to comprehend the underlying truth of the matter that is preventing us from understanding that fact.... Since OBVIOUSLY two truths cannot contradict.

[The Hungry Atheist]

The List of Enigma:
1) Everything on the List of Enigma is True.
2) The Bible is False.
3) Enigma Likes All Types of Pizza.
4) Enigma Hates All Types of Pizza.

At last, an answer! Praise Enigma and his divine ambivalence to pizza, which our mortal minds can never hope to comprehend!

[ST88]

Romans 9:19-24
You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory-- even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

Isn't this a misreading of the potter metaphor in Jeremiah?

Jeremiah 18:6
"Can I not, O house of Israel, deal with you as this potter does?" declares the Lord. "Behold, like clay in the potter's hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel.
"At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, to destroy it;
if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it."

In Jeremiah, God as potter implies that he is making us as we live, not that we are made and then cast before we live our lives. According to Jeremiah, we are formed in clay with the attitudes we have towards God throughout our lives & the final cast will be made upon our deaths. Now, as God prepares the earthenware jars, he is free to disfigure our souls such that we may be dashed in the fiery lake of flaming fire, but our actions later might cause him to reshape our souls. But since we don't know the dates of our deaths, it behooves us to seek God as early as possible, no?

This is the doctrine of Compatibilism

I read this essay and it seems to say that this doctrine is what it is because he says it is. In other words, he readily acknowledges that the idea of Supreme Providence and the idea of human autonomy are mutually exclusive. Then he says that they are not. I fail to follow the logic of this argument, and it does not prove its case in any way other than the fact that it is the assertion of the author.

[cpoteet]

*) Obviously #3 and #4 must be both true because of #1, and it is only our poor ability to comprehend the underlying truth of the matter that is preventing us from understanding that fact.... Since OBVIOUSLY two truths cannot contradict.

You are using bad logic to look at the analysis. I'm not stating something similar to the fact your 3/4 are both true. I'm saying that man is morally responsible and God elects those for salvation. If I used your analysis, it would be like me saying: man is morally responsible, and man is not morally responsible, and that would be false.

How the providence of God works out these matters of concurrence is mysterious but not contradictory. There is nothing that is rationally incompatible about God's sovereignty and human freedom. Scripture clearly teaches that God is sovereign and that man is responsible. Neither teaching is false. I am not proposing that freedom and sovereignty are not contradictions simply because the Bible teaches both. I am saying that the two concepts are not contradictory because they are not mutually exclusive concepts. Divine sovereignty and human autonomy would be mutually exclusive. If God is sovereign man could not be autonomous. If man is autonomous God could not be sovereign.