Just Judgement

[help3434]

In the Theology subforum Humble disciple said

But if any man commits just ONE sin, then he is guilty, and thus God condemns them JUSTLY to Hell for their sin.

But if any man commits either just ONE sin, or a plurality of sins all the rest of the days of their lives, and WOULD BE justly condemned to Hell for their sin, but then believe in Jesus as their God and Savior...then they will enter into heaven.

So then, no man is condemned to Hell except that they justly deserve the condemnation. No man is sent to Hell for not believing in Jesus as God and Savior. But all those who *DO* believe in Jesus as God and Savior shall be saved from what would be a JUSTIFIED condemnation.

Would it be just for God to send people to Hell for committing one little sin? I think almost all Christians agree it would be unjust for someone who was caught jaywalking to be sentenced to hard labor, or someone who shoplifted to be tortured, or someone to went 5 mph over the spend limit to be sentenced to life in prison. Why then do many claim being sent to Hell for a few sins is just?

[help3434]

[Replying to post 10 by Wootah]

Not really sure what you are getting at here. Can we damage almighty God? How could anything we do deserve eternal torture, especially being human and making mistakes?

[Elijah John]

[Replying to ttruscott]

Does anyone remember being a "self created demon"? Is it just to be condemned to Hell for something you don't remember doing? Is being tortured forever a just punishment for anything?

No, and in reponse to the OP, eternal torture in hell for finite sin, seems to me extremely UNjust it seems to me.

Since it is my theology under particular discussion here, I'm surprised you lump my theology in here as I do not claim either torture nor judgement for finite sin but only righteous judgement for an infinite sin of eternal proportions...that of self creating oneself as a demon.

The image of God that Fundamentalism seems to posit that hell is just even for "everyday" sinners (or imperfect people)

.

Why should we care what illogical whackos think? Are you implying that their foolishness rubs off on all Christians? If you want to denegrate wackos, throw it open to all the wacked out theories and idealisms of the world...why pick on those whom ordinary Christians reject as Christians except to lump them together by implication?

God, (as interpreted by Fundamentalists, but not all Christians) seems to be incapable of making fine moral distinctions, with his supposed "all or nothing" hanging-judge mentality. How is that justice? A human judge who acted like that would be removed from the bench.

I believe God is better than that.

I cannot believe anyone who believes as you just wrote is a Christian... Is it easier to tilt at this windmill than to parse non-'fundamentalist wacko' Christianity?

Peace, Ted

Actually Ted, I am not lumping anywone together with anyone else. I am making a DISTINCTION between Fundamentalism and other forms of Christianity.

Fundamenatalists are Christian too, I would say that even though I disagree with them in many respects.

I am Christian as well, because like Jefferson, I prefer Jesus TEACHINGS to any other prophet or Bible character. And believe he claimed no Divinity for himself.

I am a Christian Deist and cultural-Catholic.

And as I said earlier in response to the OP, not entirley directed at you, I believe the doctrine of the eternal torture of hell is an unjust one, and have stated my reasons for that position.

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 7 by ttruscott]

You are one to talk about who ordinary Christians reject as Christian. Your theology is not taught by any major Christian denomination. How is it logical to believe that some people made themselves into demons before they were born?

I find PCEC to be a more logical understanding of the Bible message as it solves the conundrums of problematic theological conflicts between Calvinism, Arminianism and Catholicism and stays true to the universally (if there are any) accepted doctrines better than the other sects.

Even ordinary Christianity accepts that Satan et al fell into sin by choice and thereby self created themselves as demons from their created state as angels...they just reject that this includes those who we know as human since their birth on earth.

IF Satan fell that way, why not us? Us also seems to be eminently logical to me, especially since some people are devils as per Joh 6:70 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil." and
the fact that the devil sows some of his own into the earth as per the parable of the good seed.


Peace, Ted

[help3434]

[Replying to post 13 by ttruscott]

Why not us? Because in the mythology those that followed Satan fell with him. They were not born on Earth.

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 13 by ttruscott]

Why not us? Because in the mythology those that followed Satan fell with him. They were not born on Earth.

That they are indeed is implied in Matt 13:38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil.

and in John 8:44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires.

Since sowing is to be born not created as the devil has no power of creation, and the tares never become good seed, I rest my case.

Peace, Ted

[help3434]

[Replying to post 15 by ttruscott]

Can you really look at a little baby and think that baby might be a demon? I find your views to be distasteful to say the least.

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 15 by ttruscott]

Can you really look at a little baby and think that baby might be a demon? I find your views to be distasteful to say the least.

I assure you that I do not ever try to guess what any person's history with GOD is, especially babies.

I assume that any person in contact with me is an elect because GOD has promised to keep the demons far from me...

Peace, Ted

[1213]

Would it be just for God to send people to Hell for committing one little sin? I think almost all Christians agree it would be unjust for someone who was caught jaywalking to be sentenced to hard labor, or someone who shoplifted to be tortured, or someone to went 5 mph over the spend limit to be sentenced to life in prison. Why then do many claim being sent to Hell for a few sins is just?

The judgment is really on basis is person righteous, not only about some act. Eternal life is for righteous. And righteous person can be known by his actions (fruits). One bad fruit can tell that the whole tree is bad and therefore not spared.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

By their fruits you will know them. Do you gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree produces good fruit; but the corrupt tree produces evil fruit. A good tree can't produce evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree produce good fruit. Every tree that doesn't grow good fruit is cut down, and thrown into the fire.
Mat. 7:16-19

Little children, let no one lead you astray. He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

And I have understood that sin (bad fruit) is really to reject God (Good, Truth, Light, Love). And so the whole thing about judgment is nicely said in this:

This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn't come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God."
John 3:19-21

Righteous person may make mistakes, but that is not in my opinion evil.