Proof And Faith

[connermt]

Would proof of the existence of the christian god cheapen christianity? Christianity is nothing if it's not hope (or faith). But with proof, there's no need for faith:
If one can prove god is real, faith of it ceases to exist
If god is real, surely it can do what the bible says, thus faith in it ceases to exist

We all know (not believe) that the only 'proof' that exists here is what believers accept as 'proof'. In other words, if a believer accepts 1+1=sunflower, that's proof to them.

To consider:
would proof cheapen, or eliminate altogether, christianity by the elimination of 'fiath'/hope?

[1213]

Would proof of the existence of the christian god cheapen christianity? Christianity is nothing if it's not hope (or faith). But with proof, there's no need for faith:
If one can prove god is real, faith of it ceases to exist

I think faith means faithfulness / loyalty to God. Even if people would certainly know that God is real, there would remain the question, does one want to be loyal to the God.

[Star]

I don't believe in proof.

Proof is only for math, formal logic, and booze. I do however believe in evidence, which precludes faith. Faith is just unfounded belief, lacking sufficient evidence.

[Jashwell]

[Replying to post 3 by Star]

No, proof is evidence or argument for the truth of a statement.

"Evidence or argument establishing a fact or the truth of a statement:"
"evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true, or to produce belief in its truth"
"the cogency of evidence that compels acceptance by the mind of a truth or a fact"

Faith can either mean trust or belief without regard to evidence.

[Divine Insight]

To consider:
would proof cheapen, or eliminate altogether, christianity by the elimination of 'fiath'/hope?

A God that would reveal himself would be far more respectable, IMHO.

A cowardly God who plays hide-and-seek has already cheapened himself.

Christians who claim to know this God exists are proclaiming that they have actually beaten this God at his own game of hide-and-seek.

Atheists are the only ones who are humble enough to confess that this God wins his game of hide-and-seek. They give God the glory of victory by proclaiming that they see absolutely no reason to believe that he could ever be found.

[dianaiad]

I don't believe in proof.

Proof is only for math, formal logic, and booze. I do however believe in evidence, which precludes faith. Faith is just unfounded belief, lacking sufficient evidence.

'sufficient' for whom?

Let's talk about a bridge crossing the Mississippi River. It was built in 1967, to the code at the time. It held up and allowed traffic to cross it safely for 40 years, and though for years 35-39 the inspection reports came back 'deficient,' there were a great many bridges in the USA that had that designation. Nobody stopped the traffic; everybody had faith that the I-35W bridge would, as it had for forty years, hold everybody up out of the river....until on August 1, 2007, it didn't. Thirteen people who had every reason to believe that this bridge would be safe lost their lives. Does that mean that their belief was 'only faith,' because they--quite obviously--didn't have 'sufficient evidence' to indicate that it WAS safe?

Yet thousands of people crossed that bridge every day for years.

"Faith" is simply the willingness to trust in something you believe in. "Faith" hasn't got anything to do with the quality of the evidence or the reason you believe....and nobody believes in anything for no reason at all.

"Faith" is something you show, and something you have, not something you believe.

It is true: proof and faith are not the same. Chalk and cheese; apples and oranges.

Proof is the thing that causes absolute knowledge, and frankly, we don't have a lot of that. For instance, as with the I-35W bridge, the only people who KNEW the bridge would hold them up...the only folks who had proof of that, were the folks who had just driven off the bridge, having just crossed it. They certainly did not have knowledge, and no proof, that it would hold them up on their way back. Indeed, for a great many people their faith that it would was, ultimately...betrayed.

One cannot have faith if one has knowledge; there is always a bit of uncertainty about 'trust,' and 'faith.' Based on evidence (whether anybody else likes that evidence is irrelevant).

In the long run, we know very few things, and those things we know don't insure future safety. Shoot, I don't KNOW that I'm going to take another breath after this one. There are a great many people right this second who won't.

.......and a bunch of 'em have no clue that this breath is going to be the last one.

So...proof and faith?

Nothing alike, we have proof of very little, and we all live by faith to some degree or other, given that 'faith' and 'trust' are synonyms.

[ttruscott]

Most Christians believe, though they are not clear about how it works, that GOD HAS revealed HIMself to every person created in HIS image already so that no one has an excuse of ignorance for not believing and some people repress that memory because of their love for sin rather than the truth.

Also, it is obvious that after the end of this world at the judgment seat and from then on, GOD's telepathic presence will be with everyone in the heavenly link of full, loving, holy reciprocal communion between GOD and all HIS Family throughout all of created reality

and both these things, if true, would deny the suggestion that the end of faith is destructive to worship. Faith is for this time and when all is proven to us and the reward for our faith given, the use of faith as an unproven hope, is over.

Peace, Ted

[connermt]

[Replying to post 2 by 1213]

That's nice and all, but the bible defines faith as "...faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."
I suppose we can pick-n-choose though, yes?

[connermt]

[Replying to post 7 by ttruscott]

IF true, which equates to hope or faith.
Which is fine, but doesn't answer the question.
Thanks anyway

[connermt]

[Replying to post 6 by dianaiad]

... 'faith' and 'trust' are synonyms.

And both pointless, even worthless, for any deity worth anything past a sniffle.
If a deity wants to play hide-n-seek, it can play with itself or someone else. Those who demand more than 'hope' and happy-wappy fairy tales in a book written by long dead (some say mentally ill and/or 'herb infused') will expect more from a deity. I suspect those with lower standards will happily accept the hope kool-aid. Looking around.....it looks like there are a LOT of those types of people.
Not that this is a bad thing - so long as they keep their kool-aid in their own fridge and don't try to pass it 'round the neighborhood.