Human sacrifice

[Zzyzx]

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Christians often condemn human sacrifice and use it as justification for slaughtering competing religious groups and societies.

However, Christians glorify the sacrifice (called "martyrdom") of their namesake and other religious notables. Supposedly the "martyrdom" was often done willingly "to serve god."

How is that different from "pagan" sacrifices to their "gods?"

[Divine Insight]

Don’t you see that now you have judged Jesus as liar? And now there is right to judge you the same way.

I haven't judged Jesus. Just because a person says something that is false it doesn't automatically follow that they are immoral. They could simply have been mistaken. I pass no judgement on the morality of Jesus.

So you are totally wrong to accuse me of judging Jesus.

I think in that you make also many judgments.

I don't care what you think. You are not God. In fact, it appears to me that you are trying extremely hard to try to pass judgement on me.

I do not make moral judgements on anyone. If you think otherwise, that's your problem not mine.

I think God doesn’t need servants or anything from humans. But people that love others serve others, because they want to do well to others.

But why would an omnipotent being care if you are doing well toward it? Moreover what could that even mean? This would only make sense in terms of mortal humans helping each other. Surely a God needs no help from you.

For example that I answer here to your questions is in my opinion service for all those who read these. And I do it because God has done well for me.

Why would a God need your help in convincing people to believe in him? Was he himself inept at getting people to believe in him?

Why should you feel that you could succeed at something that both Jesus and God have failed at miserably? Do you think you might be a superior communicator than God or Jesus?

On the contrary, I hold that if people are to be forgiven their sins then they should indeed be forgotten entirely. If they are still having them held over their heads for the rest of eternity then they have hardly been forgiven at all.

I don’t agree with that. And I think sin really is that person rejects God, not necessary that he doesn’t do everything according to the Law of Moses.

Well, again are you suggesting that you have understood this better than God and Jesus had explained it on the Bible. Clearly God and Jesus have confused people to the hilt. Not only to all Christians disagree with each other but God and Jesus have evidently also confused the hell out of the Jews and Muslims as well.

But not you. You evidently got everything down pat perfectly.

And clearly if you believe that you are doing God a "service" by expressing your views as the correct desires of God, then you must also be claiming to be the voice of God.

I rejected the Bible and Christianity precisely because I don't see where a single interpretation of the Bible is even possible. The fact that Judaism and Islam exist are proof positive of this. And of course, they myriad of disagreeing Christian sects confirms it as well.

Anyone who claims to have a clear understanding of the Bible is to be avoided at all cost, because if anything is clear it's that this religion is not clear.

It appears to me that all you are attempting to do is use Jesus as an excuse to condemn me simply because I don't believe in these ambiguous and highly self-contradicting fables.

If there truly existed a decent God he would surely back me up on this one. Any God who can't see the chaos in the Abrahamic religions would need to be blind.

Any God who would create totally inept people who can't be righteous on their own without his help and then hold them responsible for being in this hopelessly impossible situation would himself be an extremely immoral entity.

I think that is also judgment.

Well, it would be if any such entity existed.

I'm just telling it like it is. Do you believe that God is like I described here?

You need to remember that I don't' believe the Biblical baloney. Therefore I am not saying that there actually exists an immoral God, I'm simply pointing out the fact that I don't believe in fables that demand that God is immoral.

It's the Bible that demands that we believe we were created by an immoral buffoon. If I really wanted to insult any God that might exist I would simply support that the Bible describes that God. That would be the greatest insult I could ever offer to any God.

Can he condemn you without becoming a liar?

Yes. If He tells that I am not righteous, because… …I think that is not judgment, it can be just the truth. And I think eternal life is a gift for righteous people and if he shows that I am not righteous, I think it is then ok, if he doesn’t give that gift for me.

And if I don’t have judged, I think it doesn’t mean that I should not be judged. I think it means that I should be judged same way as I would judge. If I would be merciless, then my judge has right to be merciless or if I would make not righteous judgments, then my judge would be allowed to make judgments the same way. So I think the matter is not about has person judged, but how would that person judge, if he would judge.

I have no problem with what you just said here.

If this God judges me in the same way I would judge another then I can be guaranteed to go straight to the highest heaven with no questions even being asked.

So I have no problem with this at all.

Yet for some reason you seem to think that I should have a problem with this.

It seems to me that your ultimate agenda in our conversations has been to try to attempt to establish that I should have something to fear from this God, or that I might be in dangers of condemnation in some way.

I have absolutely no fear of that whatsoever. If there exists a righteous God then I have nothing to fear. The only God I would need to fear is an unrighteous God.

So if God is righteous, then I'm home free and I have nothing to fear.

If God is unrighteous then none of us are safe.

[1213]

If this God judges me in the same way I would judge another then I can be guaranteed to go straight to the highest heaven with no questions even being asked.

Nice, if that is true.

I want to also add this so that you could know that was the judgment:

He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn't believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God. This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn't come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God."
John 3:19-21

[Divine Insight]

If this God judges me in the same way I would judge another then I can be guaranteed to go straight to the highest heaven with no questions even being asked.

Nice, if that is true.

I want to also add this so that you could know that was the judgment:

He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn't believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God. This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn't come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God."
John 3:19-21

It's precisely these kinds of verses that expose the underhanded and hateful scam that these ancient religions dogmas necessarily are.

This is nothing other than a truly dishonest and underhanded attempt to try to convince people that if they don't recognize and worship the demigod of this particular religious cult then they will be hatefully branded by this immoral cult to be people who love darkness and hate the light.

I can't believe anyone would fall for such a dishonest and clearly underhanded scam.

Why do you allow other people to tell you what you love or hate? Don't you know for yourself what you love or hate?

The bible is clearly filled with these kinds of outright lies. This is how we can know with absolute certainty that it's an extremely dishonest underhanded scam.

I know for a fact that John 3:19-21 is clearly a lie. If you don't know it then I don't know what to tell you. If people told you that if you don't believe in Zeus then you love darkness and hate the light would you believe them?

[Zzyzx]

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He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn't believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God. This is the judgment . . . .

In other words, all one must do to be "not judged" (evidently to achieve "salvation") is to believe in God / Jesus. Right?

It doesn't matter what a person DOES -- only what they believe. Right?

If they believe, ask forgiveness and repent (according to some Christians) that is all which is required to get a ticket to heaven in the proposed "afterlife." Right?

[1213]

...
He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn't believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God. This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn't come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God."
John 3:19-21

...This is nothing other than a truly dishonest and underhanded attempt to try to convince people that if they don't recognize and worship the demigod of this particular religious cult then they will be hatefully branded by this immoral cult to be people who love darkness and hate the light.

I think it does not meant that “…if you don’t regognize and worship the demigod…�. I think it means, those who are honest, receive what Jesus said, because it is the truth. And they want to remain in the truth.

If people told you that if you don't believe in Zeus then you love darkness and hate the light would you believe them?

I think Jesus didn’t mean that if you don’t believe him, then you love darkness. I think he meant that person who loves darkness, rejects him and don’t believe what he said, because that would mean that person would have to admit that he has done wrong things. If person loves more evil, he doesn’t want to accept the truth, because he wants to keep the evil things.

[1213]

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He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn't believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God. This is the judgment . . . .

In other words, all one must do to be "not judged" (evidently to achieve "salvation") is to believe in God / Jesus. Right?

It doesn't matter what a person DOES -- only what they believe. Right?

If they believe, ask forgiveness and repent (according to some Christians) that is all which is required to get a ticket to heaven in the proposed "afterlife." Right?

I think it means, if person has done wrong things, and don’t admit it, and don’t receive what Jesus said, those wrong things will remain the reason why the person will be considered unrighteous and without eternal life that is for righteous.

By “fruits� it is determined who is righteous, because righteous does righteous acts. If person can’t admit if he has done wrong and don’t accept the forgiveness that is declared through Jesus, then he remain unrighteous. Person who loves more evil than good, don’t want to accept that but remains in the “darkness�. And I think those are already judged because of their unrighteousness, not because they have not believed what Jesus said. Because they have not received what Jesus said, the already given judgment remains.

[Divine Insight]

I think it does not meant that “…if you don’t regognize and worship the demigod…�. I think it means, those who are honest, receive what Jesus said, because it is the truth. And they want to remain in the truth.

What truth are you talking about?

What Jesus taught is clearly not the truth. Jesus taught us to take no thought of the morrow and that God feeds the birds and that we should expect that God should take care of us even more so.

But those were both lies. There is no truth in them. God does not feed the birds. The birds need to take thought for themselves and go out and find food on their own often times at great peril and risk to their own lives. Birds also steal food whenever possible including eating the eggs or babies of other birds.

Is that what we're supposed to do? Go out and scavenge for food, stealing food from our neighbors and eating their defenseless babies? Why should I give any respect to Jesus when he suggested such immoral absurdities?

If I were to follow Jesus I would need to abandon my family, not plan for the morrow or seek dependable employment. In fact, I'm not even supposed to have any material wealth. I'm supposed to give my material wealth to the poor and let God feed me like he feeds the birds.

Clearly Jesus had no truth to offer. All he has was insanely stupid ideals based on the false assumption that God feeds the birds and therefore should do even better for us.

Jesus had no clue about truth.

I think Jesus didn’t mean that if you don’t believe him, then you love darkness. I think he meant that person who loves darkness, rejects him and don’t believe what he said, because that would mean that person would have to admit that he has done wrong things. If person loves more evil, he doesn’t want to accept the truth, because he wants to keep the evil things.

I don't see why a person would need to admit that they have done wrong things to reject the insane stupidity that Jesus taught.

Jesus was clearly an idiot in terms of how to survive in the real world. Why would anyone need to admit that they have done wrong things to acknowledged that Jesus was an idiot?

Clearly Jesus was not a divine demigod. At most he was a radical doomsday preacher that was used as fodder for creating the Christian Cult. In fact, according to the rumors written about him he preached that doomsday would occur before the generation he was preaching to had passed. Clearly that didn't happen.

Jesus probably wasn't all that much different from people like Jim Jones and David Koresh. He was clearly just as delusional.

[1213]

Jesus taught us to take no thought of the morrow and that God feeds the birds and that we should expect that God should take care of us even more so.

Therefore don't be anxious for tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious for itself. Each day's own evil is sufficient.
Matt. 6:34

Jesus said, don’t be anxious about tomorrow. The meaning is that we shouldn’t worry about tomorrow. It doesn’t mean that we should not think about anything about tomorrow or that we shouldn’t make plans for example.

But those were both lies. There is no truth in them. God does not feed the birds. The birds need to take thought for themselves and go out and find food on their own often times at great peril and risk to their own lives.

See the birds of the sky, that they don't sow, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns. Your heavenly Father feeds them. Aren't you of much more value than they?
Matt. 6:26

And about birds Jesus told that they don’t sow and reap or gather food in storages. And I think that is true. Obviously they eat by themselves what they get, but the food grows for them without them making anything for it to grow.

If I were to follow Jesus I would need to abandon my family, not plan for the morrow or seek dependable employment. In fact, I'm not even supposed to have any material wealth. I'm supposed to give my material wealth to the poor and let God feed me like he feeds the birds.

The meaning of his teachings is, that there is more important things than earthly things and we shouldn’t worry about earthly things, but rather seek the kingdom of God.

"Therefore don't be anxious, saying, 'What will we eat?', 'What will we drink?' or, 'With what will we be clothed?' For the Gentiles seek after all these things, for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. But seek first God's Kingdom, and his righteousness; and all these things will be given to you as well.
Matt. 6:31-33

Life is more than food, and the body is more than clothing.
Luke 12:23

For what will it profit a man, if he gains the whole world, and forfeits his life?
Matt. 16:26

This all is about the order of precedence. Disciples should not give too much value for thigs that will anyway be destroyed and don’t last. And it doesn’t help you in any way if you use your days by worrying things that may happen in future or may not happen. Or is it beneficial for you to worry about possible things in future?

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to post 77 by 1213]

In terms of the messages that you are attempting to extrapolate from the teachings of Jesus you would be far better looking to Buddha for those teachings because Buddha taught them far better without unnecessary ambiguity. Also there is no rumors of a virgin birth, a crucifixion to pay for your sins, or an angry male-chauvinistic Godhead who is threatening to unleash his hateful wrath upon if you aren't "saved" from his hateful vengeance.

Apparently the things you value in Jesus are the things that are actually innate to Buddha and are in total opposition to the Old Testament God.

Jesus himself wouldn't be so bad if he didn't carry around the baggage of the hateful God of Abraham. But there's no way to free Jesus from that God. Unlike Buddha, Jesus has no feet of his own to stand on. Jesus is only meaningful when sitting on the shoulders of Yahweh.

I feel confident that Jesus never had a clue that his attempt to bring the wisdom of Buddha into his home culture would result in such an absurd religion that ultimatey ends up using his name to spread hatred and condemnation in his name against all those who don't worship "Yahweh".

I also feel that you are expressing a denial concerning the birds.

You say, "And about birds Jesus told that they don’t sow and reap or gather food in storages. And I think that is true. Obviously they eat by themselves what they get, but the food grows for them without them making anything for it to grow."

But they don't just eat food that is in abundance. They eat whatever they can get their beaks on, including eggs and chicks of other birds.

It's a really bad analogy.

Also Jesus preached: "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you."

But they aren't. It's a lie. There are many examples of devoutly religious people and even entire cultures that ended up dying due to droughts, disease and other natural disasters.

So it's lie. Period.

I also don't think Buddha ever made those kinds of absurd promises.

Jesus appears to have gotten carried away adding his own wishful thinking into the mix.

Wishful thinking that we know is false beyond any shadow of a doubt.

[1213]

Apparently the things you value in Jesus are the things that are actually innate to Buddha and are in total opposition to the Old Testament God.

In my opinion Jesus preached the same things that were already in the OT and from the OT God. And I think it is possible that Buddha got his ideas from OT.

But they don't just eat food that is in abundance. They eat whatever they can get their beaks on, including eggs and chicks of other birds.

Maybe so, but that can be just because they have been corrupted. However, my point is that they get the food that grows without them making anything for it grow.

It's a lie. There are many examples of devoutly religious people and even entire cultures that ended up dying due to droughts, disease and other natural disasters.

Actually all bodies die eventually, in Biblical point of view that is not end. And I think the promise is for those who seek the Kingdom of God, not all that are claimed to be “devout religious people�.