Who defines what?

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Who defines what?

Post #1

Post by Zzyzx »

.
A Theist who has gained my respect said:
Christianity really should be defined only by the folks who call themselves Christian.
I agree.

However, it appears as though asking ten Christians to define Christianity results in at least nine different (often strongly different) definitions (and two who were copying from each other – just kidding, just kidding). Ask what constitutes a REAL Christian and responses become even more diverse.

SO, where can we find a definition that Christians overall accept – one that I (we) can use in debate that is representative of Christianity overall? Is there one? If not, which definition shall be accepted in debate?

By the same token, shall we allow Atheists to define the term Atheist – or shall we allow Christians to (often or usually) inflict the "god-denier" definition and attempt to coerce all Non-Believers to defend that straw man?
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AdHoc wrote:
Divine Insight wrote:
AdHoc wrote: All kidding aside, who gets to be called Christians? Anyone who has the Spirit of Christ. It's not an exclusive club.
But there are Christian clubs that are indeed quite exclusive.
You mean like Masons and stuff?
I think almost any church would tend to ask people to leave if when they asked people to give their testimony people were standing up giving testimony for why they are convinced there is no God. ;)

They tend to be exclusive clubs in that they exclude people who don't believe in their God. That's an exclusionary club already.

There are also many documented cases where gays have been forbidden to "join" a church. They are often welcome to come to services but they are forbidden to actually become active members of the church and still be 'openly gay'. So these clubs are not only exclusionary if you don't believe in their God, but they are also exclusionary if you don't even believe the same things that they believe about God. And this is true even if you claim to believe in Jesus as the Christ.

~~~~

I think it's also true that they would exude anyone who doesn't worship God through Jesus specifically. If I went to one of these churches with a statue of Hecate the Moon Goddess and asked if I could place it on the alter beside the crucifix of Jesus and worship God through Hecate they would be very quick to exclude me from their club.

If the club demands that everyone must worship God through the demigod Jesus, then I would say that it's definitely a very exclusive club. Christianity is definitely an 'Exclusive club". They use Jesus himself as a reason to exclude people.
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Post #12

Post by DanieltheDragon »

[Replying to post 8 by AdHoc]
I often wonder why every denomination has to have a statement of faith, and some of them are really specific and diverse. Did the early church do that?
Maybe not so much a statement of faith that appears to be a more modern thing, BUT the early churches were very diverse. This diversification is sort of what necessitated the council at Nicea. Still even then not much could be agreed upon.
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Re: Who defines what?

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Post by 1213 »

Zzyzx wrote: Is there any indication that Jesus is currently doing so?


Jesus did so, when he allegedly said:

Therefore go, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you. Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
Mat. 28:19-20

Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, "If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
John 8:31-32
Zzyzx wrote:Words attributed to Jesus place strict requirements for being his disciple -- requirements such as forsaking family and possessions to follow him. Who, other than a few ascetics or obsessives, qualifies under those terms?
To what scriptures are you referring?
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Re: Who defines what?

Post #14

Post by Zzyzx »

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1213 wrote: To what scriptures are you referring?
It is amusing and perhaps illustrative when bible believers ask me to direct them to scriptures -- as though they were unfamiliar with words attributed to Jesus such as (from a Christian website):
http://betezda.com/2010/02/16/what-does ... -disciple/
After analyzing what the New Testament teaches about discipleship, we must conclude that the Lord Jesus clearly defined the following requirements of becoming His disciple:

1. The disciple of Jesus Christ must be a new spiritual creature and a citizen of God’s Kingdom. The first condition of discipleship is that one has already become the recipient of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God. There is no discipleship without salvation. Jesus metaphorically explained this: “No one sews a patch of un-shrunk cloth on an old garment, for the patch will pull away from the garment, making the tear worse. Neither do men pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst, the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved� (Matthew 9:16-17). Without the miracle of the new birth, no one can completely devote him/herself to Christ.

2. The disciple of Jesus Christ must daily crucify his/her own self. Informing His disciples about the events leading Him to the cross, Jesus emphatically told them that every true disciple must also bear a cross. “And He was saying to them all, ‘If anyone wishes to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me� (Luke 9:23) . Taking up our cross daily describes our willingness to lay aside all self-seeking and ego-centric ambitions: It means that our utmost desire and ambition is not to satisfy ourselves, but to please our Savior and Lord.  It means that Jesus, not ourselves or anyone else in this universe, is the object of our supreme worship and affection. Pleasing Him is the driving motivation of our lives, of our activities, and of our choices. Jesus didn’t mince words: “Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be my disciple� (Luke 14:27) .

3. The disciple of Jesus Christ must pursue the teachings of the Kingdom of God as taught by Christ. By definition, a disciple is a student and a follower of his master. A disciple of Christ must strive to learn, understand, and apply the principles of the Kingdom. We can only live according to what we know: the more we know Christ’s teaching and character, the more we can emulate His lifestyle and character. Philippians 2:5 exhorts us to “Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus.� A disciple is called to embrace the mind, the attitudes, the purposes, and the destiny of his/her Master, the Lord Jesus Christ.

4. The disciple of Jesus Christ must place Jesus above those dearest to him/her. The fourth requirement Jesus underscored is that our love for Him must have priority over any other human being: “If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, … he cannot be my disciple� (Luke 14:26). This verse doesn’t mean that we, as disciples of Christ, cannot love God and our family at the same time. The Bible clearly teaches our obligations to our husbands, wives and children (see Ephesians 5:22-25; 1 Timothy 4:8). What Jesus means is that our love for Him must have primacy over any other affection and our bond to Him more inseparable than to anything else.

Exegetically, these words don’t have the same punch in our American society as they delivered back then and still do in certain countries nowadays. For instance, in Muslim or Hindus communities the new converts are confronted with the ultimatum to choose between Jesus and family, and many Christians have been totally disowned and disinherited because of their faith in Christ, the Savior, and many have paid the ultimate price when they proclaimed their allegiance to the Lord Jesus (see Voice of the Martyrs, http://www.persecution.com/).

Our relationship to Christ must have priority not only over family members; our union with Him must take priority over all forms of human relationship. Being a true disciple of Jesus Christ will often times lead to enmity with the surrounding world. Jesus did not hide this reality: “If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore, the world hates you� (John 15:18-19) .

In the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus clearly warned His followers of the dangerous outcomes of their decision: “A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a slave above his master. It is enough for the disciple that he become as his teacher, and the slave as his master. If they have called the head of the house Beelzebub, how much more the members of his household!� (Matthew 10:24-25) . Against this background, Jesus warns of the possibility that some disciples would be asked to pay with their own lives: “Anyone who does not take his cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it� (Matthew 10:38-39) .

5. The disciple of Jesus Christ must place his/her devotion to Christ above material possessions. After Jesus taught about the true riches, He declared, “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon� (Matthew 6:24) . Rich and affluent people of the world clearly have a problem with this condition of discipleship, but so do most of us that are the citizens of the most affluent nation in the world, The United States of America, especially when Jesus adds, “So therefore, no one of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions�(Luke 14:33) .

This simply means Christ’s disciples must love God more than they love money and what it can buy. However, this doesn’t mean that the Bible teaches that one can become a Christian only after disposing of all his or her material possessions; most likely it refers to the attitude towards material possessions: “Children, how hard it is for those who trust in riches to enter the kingdom of God!� (Mark 10:24, NKJV, italics mine). Paul explains: “The love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith, and pierced themselves with many a pang� (1 Timothy 6:10) . He continued to instruct those who were rich in material things to be rich in good works, and not to trust in the uncertainty of riches (1 Timothy 6:17-19) . In the life of a disciple of Christ nothing must compete with his/her devotion to and dependence upon the Lord Jesus Christ.

6. A disciple of Jesus Christ must be fruitful and multiply him/herself. Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds. The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life� (John 12:24-25) . Like our Master, who died and through His resurrection reproduced His life in us, we also must reproduce ourselves in others and produce disciples of Christ. This is the heart of the Great Commission: “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations� (Matthew 28:19) . Only a disciple who died to himself and to this world is capacitated to reproduce himself in others!
Is that sufficient?
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Post #15

Post by AdHoc »

Divine Insight wrote:
AdHoc wrote:
Divine Insight wrote:
AdHoc wrote: All kidding aside, who gets to be called Christians? Anyone who has the Spirit of Christ. It's not an exclusive club.
But there are Christian clubs that are indeed quite exclusive.
You mean like Masons and stuff?
I think almost any church would tend to ask people to leave if when they asked people to give their testimony people were standing up giving testimony for why they are convinced there is no God. ;)

They tend to be exclusive clubs in that they exclude people who don't believe in their God. That's an exclusionary club already.

There are also many documented cases where gays have been forbidden to "join" a church. They are often welcome to come to services but they are forbidden to actually become active members of the church and still be 'openly gay'. So these clubs are not only exclusionary if you don't believe in their God, but they are also exclusionary if you don't even believe the same things that they believe about God. And this is true even if you claim to believe in Jesus as the Christ.

~~~~

I think it's also true that they would exude anyone who doesn't worship God through Jesus specifically. If I went to one of these churches with a statue of Hecate the Moon Goddess and asked if I could place it on the alter beside the crucifix of Jesus and worship God through Hecate they would be very quick to exclude me from their club.

If the club demands that everyone must worship God through the demigod Jesus, then I would say that it's definitely a very exclusive club. Christianity is definitely an 'Exclusive club". They use Jesus himself as a reason to exclude people.
Ahh yes by that definition I guess it would be an exclusive club. Its an exclusive club anyone can join as long as they deny themselves and take up their crosses.

But if they love their own lives too much to lose them I'm not sure why they would want to spend their lives hanging out with us losers...

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Post #16

Post by Divine Insight »

AdHoc wrote: But if they love their own lives too much to lose them I'm not sure why they would want to spend their lives hanging out with us losers...
Why would people who don't love life be interested in an eternal life? :-k
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Post #17

Post by AdHoc »

Divine Insight wrote:
AdHoc wrote: But if they love their own lives too much to lose them I'm not sure why they would want to spend their lives hanging out with us losers...
Why would people who don't love life be interested in an eternal life? :-k
Haha that does sound weird when you put it like that.

I'll have to be careful how I answer you DI or I could get chastised for preaching...

My guess is they do love life (or the idea of it) but they choose to turn it over to Christ. By turning their backs on pleasing themselves they are hating their lives. Here in the west its easy for Christians to get caught up in the world's pleasures and not put Christ at the centre of their lives. In North Korea and Iraq this life probably isn't as attractive.

Then again, life would get a lot easier for them if they threw in with the religion of the terrorists or the worship of Kim Jong Un.

To answer your question more succinctly, the next life will be alot better for them because Kim Jong Un is not actually the eternal supreme leader.

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Post #18

Post by Divine Insight »

AdHoc wrote: To answer your question more succinctly, the next life will be alot better for them because Kim Jong Un is not actually the eternal supreme leader.
Are you sure about this? :-k

When I read the Bible I can't be as sure about that as you seem to be.
AdHoc wrote: My guess is they do love life (or the idea of it) but they choose to turn it over to Christ. By turning their backs on pleasing themselves they are hating their lives. Here in the west its easy for Christians to get caught up in the world's pleasures and not put Christ at the centre of their lives.
I can never understand this kind of proclamation. I can't imagine anything that I would need to do differently to satisfy what most western Christians would consider to be a "Christ-like" life.

Obviously if giving your life over to Christ requires turning your back on your family and friends, giving away all your money and possessions to the poor, going around healing people and casting out demons in Jesus' name, then I can safely say that I was never a "Christian". I was never able to heal anyone and I wouldn't know a demon if it looked me in the eye. But then again, I've never met any Christians who behave like this or can heal people either.

But my point is that I was a Christian at one time. My life hasn't changed one bit since I realized that Christianity is false. I mean it wasn't like I suddenly realized that I can now go out and lust after fame, fortune. and pleasure where before I couldn't because it would be against the wishes of Jesus. :roll:

In fact, there is nothing I do today that wouldn't be totally acceptable when I was a Christian. So the idea that life is different between being a Christian versus not being a Christian is totally devoid of any truth, at least for me.

It may be true for other Christians but if it is true for other Christians then clearly they aren't happy living life on Jesus' terms anyway. So why would they want to live an eternal life in a way that they apparently hate?

I mean seriously. If a Christian thinks that they have to give up all the GREAT things in this life in order to pacify Jesus, then what exactly are they expecting when they go to heaven? Are they expecting Jesus say, "Ok you made it! Now your are free to go and do all those lustful things that I had forbade you to do on earth." :-k

Think about. If a person feels that they need to "Give up the pleasures of this life" in order to pacify Jesus, then what are they expecting when they get to heaven? Do they think Jesus is going to then change his rules?

I honestly don't understand why Christians think that following the teachings of Jesus basically amounts to suffering through hell on earth. A person ought to be able to live a life for Jesus and enjoy every single moment of it without complaining that they are "giving up their life for Jesus". And therefore it would be a total farce to claim that they "gave up this life" for Jesus.

You can't claim to have "given up" this life if you are enjoying it. And if following Jesus makes you miserable in this life, then you better think twice about what he's going to be expecting in the next. Because if you don't like following him in this life, then chances are pretty good that you're not going to enjoy it any better in the next life.

So this idea that Christians need to "give up their lives" for Jesus makes no sense. All that says is that they apparently hate having to follow Jesus' rules.

After all, if they actually enjoy it, then what are they "giving up"?

Christian are contradicting themselves here big time. To claim that they have to "give up" their life for Jesus only implies that they don't like living the way Jesus taught and they would rather be doing something else. What sense does that make?
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Post #19

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Divine Insight wrote:
AdHoc wrote: To answer your question more succinctly, the next life will be alot better for them because Kim Jong Un is not actually the eternal supreme leader.
Are you sure about this? :-k

When I read the Bible I can't be as sure about that as you seem to be.
Are you messing with me? I know we have different beliefs but I'm sure you and I both believe Kim Jung Un is not the eternal supreme leader... Like I'm talking literally not figuratively. I want to agree with you about something please DI let it be this thing.
Divine Insight wrote:
AdHoc wrote: My guess is they do love life (or the idea of it) but they choose to turn it over to Christ. By turning their backs on pleasing themselves they are hating their lives. Here in the west its easy for Christians to get caught up in the world's pleasures and not put Christ at the centre of their lives.
I can never understand this kind of proclamation. I can't imagine anything that I would need to do differently to satisfy what most western Christians would consider to be a "Christ-like" life.

Obviously if giving your life over to Christ requires turning your back on your family and friends, giving away all your money and possessions to the poor, going around healing people and casting out demons in Jesus' name, then I can safely say that I was never a "Christian". I was never able to heal anyone and I wouldn't know a demon if it looked me in the eye. But then again, I've never met any Christians who behave like this or can heal people either.

But my point is that I was a Christian at one time. My life hasn't changed one bit since I realized that Christianity is false. I mean it wasn't like I suddenly realized that I can now go out and lust after fame, fortune. and pleasure where before I couldn't because it would be against the wishes of Jesus. :roll:
Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?
Divine Insight wrote: In fact, there is nothing I do today that wouldn't be totally acceptable when I was a Christian. So the idea that life is different between being a Christian versus not being a Christian is totally devoid of any truth, at least for me.

It may be true for other Christians but if it is true for other Christians then clearly they aren't happy living life on Jesus' terms anyway. So why would they want to live an eternal life in a way that they apparently hate?

I mean seriously. If a Christian thinks that they have to give up all the GREAT things in this life in order to pacify Jesus, then what exactly are they expecting when they go to heaven? Are they expecting Jesus say, "Ok you made it! Now your are free to go and do all those lustful things that I had forbade you to do on earth." :-k

Think about. If a person feels that they need to "Give up the pleasures of this life" in order to pacify Jesus, then what are they expecting when they get to heaven? Do they think Jesus is going to then change his rules?

I honestly don't understand why Christians think that following the teachings of Jesus basically amounts to suffering through hell on earth. A person ought to be able to live a life for Jesus and enjoy every single moment of it without complaining that they are "giving up their life for Jesus". And therefore it would be a total farce to claim that they "gave up this life" for Jesus.

You can't claim to have "given up" this life if you are enjoying it. And if following Jesus makes you miserable in this life, then you better think twice about what he's going to be expecting in the next. Because if you don't like following him in this life, then chances are pretty good that you're not going to enjoy it any better in the next life.

So this idea that Christians need to "give up their lives" for Jesus makes no sense. All that says is that they apparently hate having to follow Jesus' rules.

After all, if they actually enjoy it, then what are they "giving up"?

Christian are contradicting themselves here big time. To claim that they have to "give up" their life for Jesus only implies that they don't like living the way Jesus taught and they would rather be doing something else. What sense does that make?
I think they are giving up the right to sit on the throne of their life. Whether or not they have a comfortable ideal life or one of hardship they step down and ask Christ to take that spot.

It's certainly not about giving up the lust of the flesh and bondage to sin its getting freedom from those things and living life by the Spirit.

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Post #20

Post by Divine Insight »

AdHoc wrote: Are you messing with me? I know we have different beliefs but I'm sure you and I both believe Kim Jung Un is not the eternal supreme leader... Like I'm talking literally not figuratively. I want to agree with you about something please DI let it be this thing.
I'll agree with you on this literally. ;)

But I'm afraid I'll have to pass on this figuratively.
AdHoc wrote:
Divine Insight wrote: After all, if they actually enjoy it, then what are they "giving up"?

Christian are contradicting themselves here big time. To claim that they have to "give up" their life for Jesus only implies that they don't like living the way Jesus taught and they would rather be doing something else. What sense does that make?
I think they are giving up the right to sit on the throne of their life. Whether or not they have a comfortable ideal life or one of hardship they step down and ask Christ to take that spot.

It's certainly not about giving up the lust of the flesh and bondage to sin its getting freedom from those things and living life by the Spirit.
Actually this is a far deeper topic here. It not only speaks to religious beliefs, but even to secular psychology in general.

To begin with what does it even mean to sit in the throne of your life? Does that mean to take the reins and be the pilot of your own life? If so, then giving the reins over to an imaginary demigod could be fatal.

I learned very quickly like Mother Teresa that giving the reins to Jesus is a total disaster. And I even learned that while I was still a Christian. I was even "corrected" by Christian pastor in this regard. They quickly pointed out that Jesus is not the Pilot of your life, he's your "co-pilot", but you must keep the reins. You must sit in the throne of your own life, expecting Jesus to drive your life for you is truly absurd. What would even be the point in having you there if Jesus has to make every single decision for you?

So I was "trusting Jesus" way too much in the early going, and that was a natural disaster. I didn't give up though. Instead I was determined to get "Closer to Jesus". Like Mother Teresa, I wanted something real. It was actually this path that led me to study the Bible in great detail and resulted in my realization that the whole religions is clearly false.

Ironically, even that didn't convert me to atheism. I didn't give up on "God", on the contrary I actually felt a lot closer to God after ditching the Bible and Christianity. But even so, there was still nothing "real" there that was capable of taking control of any reins of my throne of life. (We're actually talking about the driver's seat here).

In fact, I've never given up on the belief in God to this very day. I still quite stupidly believe that a God exists. I cling to that last straw of faith that every good little theist clings to till their death: That somehow in the end all these utter absurdities of life will be justified and God will have legitimate excuses for his total lack of empathy for living creatures.

I actually found some of the very best excuses for God in Taosim. Boy, if you want some really good excuses for God check out the Eastern mystics, man can they come up with good excuses! They have come up with such brilliant excuses that I can't shoot them down. Not only do they come up with excuses that justify God entirely, but their excuses even vindicate God of any and all possible wrongdoing. I mean if a God wants an attorney to defend his righteousness he would do very well to hire the Eastern Mystics as his defense team. They would not only get him off but they would get him completely vindicated of any possible wrongdoing.

So thanks to Taoism I'm able to continue to stupidly believe in God to this very day. And I have no clue if that's even a good thing.

I say that I 'stupidly believe' in a God because I must also confess that the secularist have a pretty iron-clad and intelligent argument for a Godless universe as well. And there argument is indeed based more on intelligence.

Belief in God is based entirely upon faith, and let's face it, faith without evidence is logically stupid. That's just a fact. But I keep the faith to this very day.

In any case, if I had my life to live over I can only say that I wish I had been born into Taoism instead of Christianity. I think that would have made a major and positive change in my entire life. I learned the true wisdom of Taoism too late in life to be of much value.
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