Peter wrote:
I'm confused... perpetually, but that's another issue.
If the Christian god exists then He knows exactly how to persuade me of His existence. I can tell you that it would take much less than the clouds parting and God coming down in a flaming chariot like some kind of biblical Santa Claus.
I know this persuasion happens all the time because I'm told that it does by Christians. Was their free will violated when God convinced them He exists? Are they simply "robots" now that they're convinced that the Christian god exists?
Please, I don't want to be a robot so clear this up for me! How much divine persuasion is acceptable before my free will is violated?
I understand it this way...I don't care if it is the right way or correct so much as I like to know that a plausible answer with internal logical integrity is available...but to set the stage so you know what I am talking about, is a longish essay.
First, using our earthly life experiences here is meaningless when it comes to spiritual understanding. You can't get there from here. Science says we cannot have a free will. Christian understanding of our sinful nature says we can't have free will. The only people who believe we must have free will are those who understand it is necessary to keep GOD at arm's length from the creation of evil and to make the guilty person actually guilty of their sins but they don't know how it works against science and their dogma.
But if we put together all the elements of a true free will choice (another essay altogether) then it becomes obvious that the only time and place this could have happened is pre-earth in the spirit world where there was no genetics, no culture, no family values, just ingenuously innocent people in telepathic communication like the angels, learning how to bond in friendship, etc.
So, how could GOD reveal HIMself without destroying our free will. IF HE revealed HIS power and glory - who could stand against that and choose to rebel? The proof of HIS deity does indeed destroy our free will choice as it destroys our ability to have all options open to our choice making it a false choice. So HE would have been constrained by HIS desire to keep our free will intact to making HIS claims about HIS deity known but not to provide proof.
Rather than provide proof at that time HE asked us to decide about HIS claims of deity and HIS offer of heavenly bliss to be accepted on
faith, that is, an unproven hope HE was telling the truth and could reward those who put their faith in HIM as HE claimed. HE asked us to be patient and wait for the proof that would come.
The content of HIS proposal: First, HE asked us to accept HIM by our own true free will as our GOD formally and in return HE would elect (choose) us to eternal heavenly bliss by providing salvation from any sins we might do by the redemptive death of HIS Son, the Christ.
Second, HE warned us that to reject HIM as our GOD and HIS promise of salvation from sin would be to self create ourselves as eternally evil demons, unable to save ourselves and outside of HIS salvation since the only way HE could get through to us would be the proof of HIS deity after which we could no longer choose to accept HIM by our free will but could only bow out of the coercive force of HIS glory. The only way HE could keep the heavenly state from being contaminated by their evil would be to banish them from whereever the heavenly state would exist...all of created reality.
The vast majority of those created in HIS image with the ability to make free will decisions did accept HIM as their GOD and were elected to heaven. A small group decided that without proof HE was indeed their creator and therefore superior to them, they would to put their faith (hope without proof) in HIS being a false god and his promises so much ego based manipulations, thus self creating themselves as eternally evil demons and liable to HIS judgment of banishment.
This judgement had to be postponed because a small splinter group of HIS elect chose to side with the non-elect against GOD and since a judgment after they chose to be evil in HIS sight would damn them too against HIS promise of salvation, HE had to redeem them, bring them back into harmony with their first free will decision and make them heaven ready before the judgment.
Once this process was finished and every person created in HIS image had chosen by their free will their eternal relationship with YHWH, we come to the creation of the earth as HIS rehab clinic to break HIS sinful elect from their addiction to evil and to bring them to holiness by having them experience the suffering of the evils of the non-elect so that they dropped their opposition to HIS clam that the judgment was a necessity to keep heaven pure.
Every person in all of creation saw with their own eyes the creation of the physical universe and every knee did bow and every voice did sing HIS praise as HE proved HIS power and divinity to us all. Those who had lost their free will to their addiction to evil, both elect and non-elect, soon repressed the memories of this event which was further lost as they were moved into human bodies and lived through infancy.
So all this preamble is background to my assertion that humans, those elect and non-elect self chosen sinners, do not have any free will unless GOD breaks their addiction to evil. Nor will a full on, in your face revelation of HIS deity change anything as it already happened and sinners are still sinners in unbelief. It also means that HE did not coerce our freewill by the revelation of HIS power and divinity as you fear.
It also shows the importance of faith as key to keeping our free will un-coerced by HIS self revelation and why unbelief, the rejection of an unproven faith in HIM, is the source of all evil in HIS creation.
So this is how this Christian answers your question. More than you wanted? The only good answer is a full answer, eh?
Peace, Ted
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
