Abortion and the "soul"

[agnosticatheist]

At what point does the human fetus acquire a soul?

Until brain activity starts, the human fetus is technically just a non-conscious, non-sentient life form.

The hypothetical soul is what supposedly makes us human and "makes us special from the rest of the animal world". I think it is fair to say that everything that is claimed to be a function of the soul (consciousness/awareness, emotions, moral reasoning) are not possible without the brain.

If the human fetus does indeed acquire a soul when brain activity starts, then why is it wrong to abort the fetus before brain activity starts? It's nothing special before the brain activity starts. Sure, it has its own unique DNA. It is a functioning organism. But, the same could be said of a housefly, crocodile, etc. If any such organisms were presenting a problem, I would guess theists would have no objection to them being terminated...

[the_human_being]

[Replying to post 122 by enaidealukal]

Sounds to me like he's claiming a human embryo is just a virus, like a bad cold or something. The problem is that we cannot prevent the common cold but we can prevent pregnancies, and very very easily.

[Zzyzx]

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. . . we can prevent pregnancies, and very very easily.

Yes, pregnancy can be prevented (easily or not) if people are INFORMED and if adequate preventative measures are readily available.

Unfortunately, many religious and other "righteous" organizations attempt to deny information to those of child-bearing years. Sex-education is often a farce in public schools (if addressed at all) and is probably even less in religious schools.

"Abstinence only" programs have been demonstrated to produce PREGNANCY quite often. Other "moralistic" programs are similar.

What do YOU recommend?

Do you acknowledge that teen and young adults ARE inclined to be sexually active -- and that shaking a finger at them is not likely to prevent intercourse?

[dianaiad]

[Replying to post 121 by dianaiad]

Are you saying that all of your other arguments are unsound or that all of your other points are necessary qualifiers for that one single argument?

I'm not categorizing any of my arguments as unsound.

Yours, depending as they do on something that cannot be verified and are assigned by society (and thus changeable) are.

My opposition to abortion has nothing whatsoever to do with the appearance of the spirit, except that gaining one is just one additional reason not to use abortion as a sort of retroactive birth control method.

The speed limit by a school is generally around 20 to 25 MPH, just in case children might be present. One does not go 55 MPH by a grammar school...because...well...a child might be present.

We should not kill an unborn human being for frivolous reasons (and 'for the sake of convenience' and "I didn't mean to get pregnant and don't want to be pregnant right now' are frivolous reasons) because in spite of all the pro-abortion rhetorical word play, there just might be a human individual's life at stake.

Well, there IS a human individual's life at stake.

[the_human_being]

[Replying to post 2 by Zzyzx]

I'm not against sex education. I had Biology in the tenth grade. It was perfectly clear about it.

Statics show though that rape and incest only account for about 1% of all abortions. Teen age abortions are at a low and only account for about 6% of all abortions.
Most abortions in this country are by women in the 20 - 24 years of age range followed by women in the 25-29 years of age rage. These women between the ages of 20 - 29 know about sex.

What really fathoms my mind is the number of gender selection abortions happening. Many moms are aborting their daughters.

Sex has been around a long time. It is hardly anything new. In my courting days, it was the male's responsibility to protect the female from unwanted pregnancy. I knew how to use a condom when I was thirteen years old. I fell in love too, you know. My wife and I have three kids all of whom were planned and wanted. I never got her pregnant unless we wanted to.

I hold the male as equally responsible as I do the female. To me, it's simply a matter of personal responsibility.

[dianaiad]

Why do you continue to disregard failed birth control and pregnancies that happen without consensual sex and sometimes without sex at all?

Why do you continue to claim that I have disregarded any of this?

First, I have been extremely careful to exclude non-consensual sex (i.e., rape) from the entire discussion. So careful have I been about that that the word 'consensual' is consistently attached to the word 'sex.' So stop with this particular strawman, Clownboat.

I have also addressed the issue of 'failed birth control.'

There is no excuse for 'failed birth control.' the odds of getting pregnant when one uses multiple methods of birth control properly are almost non-existent. In fact, I can't find any examples of a pregnancy that has resulted because of failed birth control when multiple forms are used, properly....but you are quite welcome to try.

If a woman is taking birth control pills properly AND the man wears a condom, for instance, she's simply not going to get pregnant. Period.

As for 'pregnancy without sex.'' Oh, come on. The VAST majority of pregnancies that result from non sexual activity are not only wanted and intended, they are expensive. If you are talking about pregnancy as a result of contact with male ejaculate without penile penetration, you have a very limited definition of 'sex.' If a woman allows a guy to get that close, CONSENSUALLY, then they had both better be using birth control. She'd better be on the pill. He'd better be using a condom.

Let's not get weird, here.

On top of it all, you claim it's pretty simple.

Yes. It is simple. Make your choice before you have sex, and do what you need to do to prevent it. That's a lot simpler, a lot more moral, and a great deal less expensive both monetarily and healthwise, than an abortion.

These people should have a voice, and you seem to not hear it. Because you must ignore these people in order to call it simple, I reject your claim that it is "simple" due to the fact it isn't by example.

Who ARE 'these people?"

Person A) If you don't want to drown, don't take a breath underwater.

If you don't want to drown, learn to swim, wear a life vest, or don't go near the water.

Person B) But what if I have been thrown to the bottom of a lake with cement blocks around my legs?

Then you'll drown. However, I fail to see any analogy here to CONSENSUAL sex.

Person A) Only people that breath underwater drown. If you don't want to drown, then don't breath while underwater! It's simple!

The only people who drown are those who go in the water. If you want to go into the water, then take the proper precautions so that you won't drown.

Person B) But.... never mind, you are obviously ignoring me and every person that has ever drown while trapped in their car at the bottom of a lake or river etc...

This is a very poor analogy.

However, since you began it, I'll continue it.

Person A: If you don't want your baby to drown, don't take him in the water with you and ignore him.

Person B: But...what if I just really want to swim, and the kid is in the way?

Person A: If you don't want your baby to drown, don't take him in the water with you and ignore him.

Person B: But...you aren't LISTENING to me! I just really want to go swimming and don't think this kid should be in the way!

We aren't talking here about people wanting to avoid drowning. We are talking here about people who create humans and want to drown THEM because they are in the way. Or 'didn't mean to.' Or they are inconvenient.

Don't accuse me of ignoring the plight of rape victims again. This isn't the first time you have done this, and it's not the first time I have pointed out, VERY clearly and specifically, that I am talking about consensual sex only.

Don't accuse me of ignoring 'failed birth control methods' again, because I have addressed that. There is no such thing as a 'failed birth control method." There are people who fail to use them properly, but if multiple forms are used, there really is no statistical evidence that pregnancy will result anyway. Use the pill/implant/IUD...AND a condom, and you won't get pregnant.

But if, against all the odds (and if that happens, I suggest that the next purchase should be a lottery ticket) pregnancy results, then....have the baby. You knew this was one of the possible consequences of having sex; if you absolutely, positively, CANNOT get pregnant, then either do something permanent about it or....(whisper this one) don't have sex. The life of a human is more important than your urge to scratch an itch.

And stop with the 'pregnancies that occur without sex' silliness. I mean, really. Stop.

[Zzyzx]

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[I'm not against sex education. I had Biology in the tenth grade. It was perfectly clear about it.

Tenth grade (age 16?) is a little bit late since most people reach puberty about four years earlier.

Statics show though that rape and incest only account for about 1% of all abortions. Teen age abortions are at a low and only account for about 6% of all abortions.

Yes, most abortions are performed on mature women – often married women who do not wish to have too many children to raise properly – and OFTEN Christian women (half a million abortions per year by Christian women in the US)

Most abortions in this country are by women in the 20 - 24 years of age range followed by women in the 25-29 years of age rage. These women between the ages of 20 - 29 know about sex.

In my experience many women in their twenties know LITTLE about sex (and perhaps males are not far behind – if any).

What really fathoms my mind is the number of gender selection abortions happening. Many moms are aborting their daughters.

What importance do you attach to the gender of the aborted fetus?

Sex has been around a long time. It is hardly anything new.

Agreed, sexual reproduction in plants and animals has evidently been around for millions of years. So what?

In my courting days, it was the male's responsibility to protect the female from unwanted pregnancy.

Perhaps you are older than I am (seventy-five in December). During the 1950s it seemed as though prevention of pregnancy was a MUTUAL responsibility. When did that change?

I knew how to use a condom when I was thirteen years old. I fell in love too, you know. My wife and I have three kids all of whom were planned and wanted. I never got her pregnant unless we wanted to.

Congratulations. Not everyone has been so "fortunate."

I hold the male as equally responsible as I do the female. To me, it's simply a matter of personal responsibility.

Agreed. That is why I advocate vasectomy in early adulthood.

[the_human_being]

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[I'm not against sex education. I had Biology in the tenth grade. It was perfectly clear about it.

Tenth grade (age 16?) is a little bit late since most people reach puberty about four years earlier.

If you're 75, at what age did you have sex education? I had an older brother and older friends. I also lived on a farm and had helped bring calves and horses into the world. Most girls had baby brothers and had seen a penis at an early age. Where you from some backwards little country or something?

Statics show though that rape and incest only account for about 1% of all abortions. Teen age abortions are at a low and only account for about 6% of all abortions.

Yes, most abortions are performed on mature women – often married women who do not wish to have too many children to raise properly – and OFTEN Christian women (half a million abortions per year by Christian women in the US)

You have a special thing about Christian women? Are they not also of the female gender? Why the prejudice?

Most abortions in this country are by women in the 20 - 24 years of age range followed by women in the 25-29 years of age rage. These women between the ages of 20 - 29 know about sex.

In my experience many women in their twenties know LITTLE about sex (and perhaps males are not far behind – if any).

Then you must really be from some backwards country. Most of the ladies I knew back in my time were already married by the time they were twenty. What third world country are you from?

What really fathoms my mind is the number of gender selection abortions happening. Many moms are aborting their daughters.

What importance do you attach to the gender of the aborted fetus?

The idea that a woman would rather abort a daughter than a son. I'm for equal opportunity.

Sex has been around a long time. It is hardly anything new.

Agreed, sexual reproduction in plants and animals has evidently been around for millions of years. So what?

You're acting like the women today have only recently discovered it and don't know how to cope with it. You sell women short. Why do you wish to have women appear as ignorant and incapable?

In my courting days, it was the male's responsibility to protect the female from unwanted pregnancy.

Perhaps you are older than I am (seventy-five in December). During the 1950s it seemed as though prevention of pregnancy was a MUTUAL responsibility. When did that change?

Perhaps it was a difference in men in my area than in men in your area. I can see though that you are all for hanging ALL the responsibility onto the woman. You really have very little regard for women, don't you?

I knew how to use a condom when I was thirteen years old. I fell in love too, you know. My wife and I have three kids all of whom were planned and wanted. I never got her pregnant unless we wanted to.

Congratulations. Not everyone has been so "fortunate."

Apparently not. It sound like where you grew up the folks there were really a backwards bunch.

I hold the male as equally responsible as I do the female. To me, it's simply a matter of personal responsibility.

Agreed. That is why I advocate vasectomy in early adulthood.[/quote

[Zzyzx]

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[I'm not against sex education. I had Biology in the tenth grade. It was perfectly clear about it.

Tenth grade (age 16?) is a little bit late since most people reach puberty about four years earlier.

If you're 75, at what age did you have sex education?

During the 1950s sex education was largely "on job experience". I learned a great deal from a lady who was considerably older.

In your "advanced society" at what age do people tend to reach puberty? Did people know about sex before tenth grade?

I had an older brother and older friends. I also lived on a farm and had helped bring calves and horses into the world. Most girls had baby brothers and had seen a penis at an early age. Where you from some backwards little country or something?

Yes, I was from a backward country – Miami, Florida, USA – even most farmers have heard of that backward area. Most of our sexual experience was not in a barnyard – it was with human females.

Statics show though that rape and incest only account for about 1% of all abortions. Teen age abortions are at a low and only account for about 6% of all abortions.

Yes, most abortions are performed on mature women – often married women who do not wish to have too many children to raise properly – and OFTEN Christian women (half a million abortions per year by Christian women in the US)

You have a special thing about Christian women?

I have found that some Christian women are really EXCITING – particularly one preacher's daughter. Do you need further information?

I also find it ironic that many Christians are adamantly opposed to abortion, yet Christian women have abortions as frequently as Non-Christian women. The term "hypocrisy" comes to mind.

Are they not also of the female gender?

Yes, all the women with whom I have been associated were of the female gender.

Why the prejudice?

I have always preferred females as mates. If you have the same or other preferences that is fine with me (i.e., not my business).

Most abortions in this country are by women in the 20 - 24 years of age range followed by women in the 25-29 years of age rage. These women between the ages of 20 - 29 know about sex.

In my experience many women in their twenties know LITTLE about sex (and perhaps males are not far behind – if any).

Then you must really be from some backwards country. Most of the ladies I knew back in my time were already married by the time they were twenty. What third world country are you from?

Since you are a newbie to the Forum I will overlook your repeated personal remarks -- this time. However, the next post that you make with unwarranted personal remarks I will NOT overlook.

What really fathoms my mind is the number of gender selection abortions happening. Many moms are aborting their daughters.

What importance do you attach to the gender of the aborted fetus?

The idea that a woman would rather abort a daughter than a son. I'm for equal opportunity.

I prefer to allow the person(s) involved to make decisions rather than impose my preferences (if they exist). It is absolutely none of my business (or yours) who has an abortion or what their reasons or preferences.

Sex has been around a long time. It is hardly anything new.

Agreed, sexual reproduction in plants and animals has evidently been around for millions of years. So what?

You're acting like the women today have only recently discovered it and don't know how to cope with it. You sell women short. Why do you wish to have women appear as ignorant and incapable?

Beg your pardon?? Where, exactly, (verbatim quote) have I indicated that women appear ignorant and incapable. I do not say such things even about debate opponents who appear to be so

In my courting days, it was the male's responsibility to protect the female from unwanted pregnancy.

Perhaps you are older than I am (seventy-five in December). During the 1950s it seemed as though prevention of pregnancy was a MUTUAL responsibility. When did that change?

Perhaps it was a difference in men in my area than in men in your area. I can see though that you are all for hanging ALL the responsibility onto the woman.

What part of MUTUAL RESPONSIBILITY is difficult to comprehend?

You are addressing someone who had a vasectomy before age forty. How, exactly, is that "hanging all the responsibility onto the women?"

You really have very little regard for women, don't you?

Quite the contrary. Try focusing on the issues of debate rather than the personal characteristics of debaters.

I knew how to use a condom when I was thirteen years old. I fell in love too, you know. My wife and I have three kids all of whom were planned and wanted. I never got her pregnant unless we wanted to.

Congratulations. Not everyone has been so "fortunate."

Apparently not. It sound like where you grew up the folks there were really a backwards bunch.

Yes, Miami and Miami Beach are very "backward" areas. Fortunately, I left there by age twenty and have lived all over the US for decades.

It is good that someone who is cosmopolitan and wordily is willing to debate with us bumpkins.

[JoeyKnothead]

From the OP:

At what point does the human fetus acquire a soul?

I'm unware of any who can offer anything other'n carryin' on that there's a soul, in the religious sense, to be had by any of us.

Until such time, I'm going with, "Right there when folks say they have 'em one, only they can't show they do, so really not right there at all, really."

Until brain activity starts, the human fetus is technically just a non-conscious, non-sentient life form.

"Just"?

The human fetus is a mass of untapped potential, and not 'just' the properties you observe.

I reject your reasoning here for being too simplistic (not a slam against your accurate observation, only a slam against your conclusion). The human fetus is far more than its physical properties. It is an expression of love, passion, evolution, and so, so much more.

If the human fetus does indeed acquire a soul when brain activity starts, then why is it wrong to abort the fetus before brain activity starts?

For all that potential I was talking about there awhile back.

That said, I prefer to think a woman choosing an abortion doesn't -ahem- just decide on a whim, and fully support her right to choose. No man I'm aware of has the full set of data the woman uses, and so should not dare to think he knows better'n the one who's faced with it.

It's nothing special before the brain activity starts. Sure, it has its own unique DNA. It is a functioning organism.

It's own unique DNA, and it being a functioning organism make it special to me.

That you require something else is best a statement of your own subjective opinion, rather than some objective truth of what it takes for something to be "special".

But, the same could be said of a housefly, crocodile, etc.

Exactly. Special for the simple fact there they sit.

If any such organisms were presenting a problem, I would guess theists would have no objection to them being terminated...

Heck, there's theists out there willing to terminate some of their own.

Humans, thinking we're the holder of what constitutes "special" is sorta what makes us not so special after all.


Life.

Now that's special right there, and I'm not willing to condemn or cuss those who try to ensure a fetus is allowed to form to its full potential. Nor am I willing to condemn or cuss the woman who must make such an agonizing decision.

Conclusion?

Those who claim a god considers anything special are, far as I can tell, incapable of showing they speak truth. Thus, prohibitions on abortion based on such are unfounded. There's far better arguments against abortion than, "God don't like it, and don't it beat all, he sent me to tell it, 'cause, 'parently, he can't be bothered to come tell it himself".

[Clownboat]

[Replying to post 1 by Clownboat]

Goodness! Have I just committed the unpardonable sin. Were you to read the post and try to understand, I pointed out that what he termed to be a "soul", I termed to be a "spirit". What is wrong with saying that in the same breath? Try saying it fast. LOL!

Please clarify.
When you use soul, do you mean "a living creature" or "spirit"?