Paul, the first heretic?

[Elijah John]

I have long wondered why the correspondence of Paul have taken on the authority of revealed, sacred Scripture.

At best, I will contend that Paul was a theologian who had some good things to say, but as Z stated in another thread, hijacked Christianity and tailored it for a Roman-Pagan audience.

Judaism+Mediterranean Paganism =Trinitarian Christianity seems to be the formula.

But the way I see it, Paul's interpretation of the crucifixion of Jesus of Nazareth, is a theological interpretation, and are his OPINIONS of the significance of the event.

But don't it beat all,* whole Churches and denominations have been founded on Paul's opinions!

And also as Z pointed out, that Paul never met Jesus in person, only in a vision. James, the brother of Jesus did not readily accept him as an apostle, according to many historical Jesus scholars.

Question for debate, did Paul hijack Christianity, making him the first or most influential heretic, or was Paul a true apostle of God and Christ?

Is it wise to found a whole religion on one man's vision, in this case from the road to Damascus?


(*Thanks to the inspiration of Joey K for the very useful phrase)

[Zzyzx]

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But don't it beat all,* whole Churches and denominations have been founded on Paul's opinions!

It appears to me as though much or most of modern, mainstream Christianity is based upon the teachings of Paul/Saul (and those who wrote under his name) rather than the teachings of Jesus (whatever they may have been).

It seems doubtful that the Jesus movement within Judaism would have prospered because it conflicted with both ruling Jews and ruling Romans. However, once the teachings were made more appealing to gentiles and Roman emperors with the Pauline version, that splinter group prospered and became the the official religion of the empire. Without being sold to gentiles, pagans and Roman emperors it is doubtful that the Jesus movement would have survived (and in fact it did not within Judaism).

[Elijah John]

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But don't it beat all,* whole Churches and denominations have been founded on Paul's opinions!

It appears to me as though much or most of modern, mainstream Christianity is based upon the teachings of Paul/Saul (and those who wrote under his name) rather than the teachings of Jesus (whatever they may have been).

It seems doubtful that the Jesus movement within Judaism would have prospered because it conflicted with both ruling Jews and ruling Romans. However, once the teachings were made more appealing to gentiles and Roman emperors with the Pauline version, that splinter group prospered and became the the official religion of the empire. Without being sold to gentiles, pagans and Roman emperors it is doubtful that the Jesus movement would have survived (and in fact it did not within Judaism).

I think you make an important observation that I had not previously fully explored. That it was by Paul's mingling of Judaism with Paganism that made Christianity more appealing to the Romans and thus helped Christianity survive.

[Wootah]

Question for debate, did Paul hijack Christianity, making him the first or most influential heretic, or was Paul a true apostle of God and Christ?

Is it wise to found a whole religion on one man's vision, in this case from the road to Damascus?

With as much evidence as you are demonstrating I feel Paul's theology matches all the other books in the New Testament Bible. I don't think there is any basis for your claims at all.

[YahDough]

Question for debate, did Paul hijack Christianity, making him the first or most influential heretic, or was Paul a true apostle of God and Christ?

Paul was a true apostle of God and Christ.

Is it wise to found a whole religion on one man's vision, in this case from the road to Damascus?

Buddha would probably say no.

But Paul just helped keep Christianity going. Christ (the man) founded it in accordance to GOD the Father's will.

[Zzyzx]

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But Paul just helped keep Christianity going. Christ (the man) founded it in accordance to GOD the Father's will.

From what I read Jesus (as described in bible stories) sought to reform Judaism -- NOT start a competing religion.

After he is said to have died, followers apparently "deified" him and took the splinter group religion to the Romans / gentiles / pagans where it found support and flourished.

Do you (generic term) have indications that Jesus (himself) intended or aspired to form a church separate from Judaism?

[YahDough]

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But Paul just helped keep Christianity going. Christ (the man) founded it in accordance to GOD the Father's will.

From what I read Jesus (as described in bible stories) sought to reform Judaism -- NOT start a competing religion.

Faith V. Works is an interesting "competition". I would say Jesus came to fulfill Judaism, not exactly "reform" it. The "law" is important, but grace through faith is more important.

After he is said to have died, followers apparently "deified" him and took the splinter group religion to the Romans / gentiles / pagans where it found support and flourished.

I don't think devout Christianity ever "flourished" in those days except in some pocket areas.

Do you (generic term) have indications that Jesus (himself) intended or aspired to form a church separate from Judaism?

Well we have the words of Christ on what seem to be His "intentions"
The Jewish nation (Judaism) got the first call.

Jesus said about Himself:
Mt:18:11: For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
Mt:15:24: But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Jn:10:16: And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

[1213]

Question for debate, did Paul hijack Christianity, making him the first or most influential heretic, or was Paul a true apostle of God and Christ?

I think Paul made it easier to hijacked Christianity. But in my opinion his teachings are in line with Gospels, if understood correctly.

[Zzyzx]

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But Paul just helped keep Christianity going. Christ (the man) founded it in accordance to GOD the Father's will.

From what I read Jesus (as described in bible stories) sought to reform Judaism -- NOT start a competing religion.

Faith V. Works is an interesting "competition". I would say Jesus came to fulfill Judaism, not exactly "reform" it. The "law" is important, but grace through faith is more important.

Is "grace through faith" being more important than "the law" *or "works" a concept from Jesus and the Jesus movement within Judaism or is that Paul/Saul's contribution when appealing to the gentiles, pagans and Romans?

After he is said to have died, followers apparently "deified" him and took the splinter group religion to the Romans / gentiles / pagans where it found support and flourished.

I don't think devout Christianity ever "flourished" in those days except in some pocket areas.

Perhaps you are unaware the Christianity became the official approved religion of the Roman empire during the fourth century and beyond. If that is not "flourishing" what is?

Do you (generic term) have indications that Jesus (himself) intended or aspired to form a church separate from Judaism?

Well we have the words of Christ on what seem to be His "intentions"
The Jewish nation (Judaism) got the first call.

Jesus said about Himself:
Mt:18:11: For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
Mt:15:24: But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Jn:10:16: And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

I do not disagree that words attributed to Jesus may have been to "fulfill" Judaism or reform it from what it had become under the temple priests.

[kayky]

The problem is that the authentic epistles of Paul are the earliest Christian texts we have (with the possible exception of the Gospel of Thomas.) The Gospels were written much later and may be just as representative of the various communities that produced them as they are of the authentic teachings of Jesus.