What's at stake?

[Elijah John]

Assuming that Jesus is not God, there seems to be a clear violation of the first commandment, that we are to have "no other gods before me (YHVH)".

What is at stake here, how serious an infraction of God's primary law is worshiping Jesus?

Does the gravity of this situation make those who worship Jesus more biased in favor of keeping Jesus as their God and the object of their worship, rather than opening themselves to evidence of the contrary?

Two or three things occur to me, that I will share after some replies.

I think that most Evangelicals swear that those who DO NOT worship Jesus spend eternity in hell...pretty high stakes.

But what if they are wrong, what if the reverse is true, what if there is punishment FOR worshiping Jesus, if he is NOT God? What then are the stakes, if worshiping Jesus is indeed a form of idolatry?

[kayky]

[Replying to post 27 by Danmark]

There is a difference. A Christian nontheist is simply saying that the theist understanding of God is incorrect and presumptuous. The Biblical understanding of God represents a more primitive point of view. But we are not atheists. We are simply saying that the human mind cannot grasp who or what God is beyond our personal experience of God (which tells us very little). Christianity is my chosen spiritual path. Because of its transformative power in my life, I would continue to practice Christianity whether "what" I am experiencing turns out to be God or just the way human beings are wired. I would simply be happy that I have found a way to tap into that human potential.

[Elijah John]

Progressive Christianity has nothing to do with "New Age" (a catchall term applied by conservatives to anything they don't understand.)

That's not always true. "We" know we cannot change/modify the Gospel.
Gal:1:8: But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Many of us are folks who left fundamentalist/evangelical churches because we realized that much of what was taught there was no longer tenable in a postmodern world. We do not "undermine" Jesus Christ. We celebrate him.

What Christian Church teachings do/did you find "untenable"?

Oh my....a favorite verse of Fundamentalism. I have heard Pentacostals consign non Pentacostals to hell, and vice versa for difference of doctrine on the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, using that verse to justify their exclusionary ways, accusin' each other of preaching a "different gospel".

Thank you Paul for starting the ball of bigotry rolling!

Yet, don't it beat all...they both believe in the Divinity of Christ, and the blood atonement merits of his death on the cross.

Such quibbling over relatively minor differences of doctrine look ridiculous to "outsiders" like me. Especially when you have the major stuff in common.

[YahDough]

[Replying to post 24 by YahDough]

I am a THEIST Christian, or more accurately a Deistic Christian, and I too am a fan of the authors that Kay cites.

And she is right, progressive Christians CELEBRATE Jesus, sometimes too much from my point of view, if they forget the Father.

You Fundamentalists do not own Jesus, and telling others they are sinning because they follow a more progressive form of Christianity is just wrong.

Remember, Jesus was a reformer. Who's to say that reform does not, must not or cannot continue?

I'm guessing you are not a Roman Catholic. If not, you too are following a somewhat progressive form of Christianity, are you not? In the form or Protestantism, a rigid FORM of Protestism, but Protestantism just the same.

First off I am not a fundamentalist. I hate that tag.

Secondly, if "progressive" Christianity preaches error and not the truth, it IS sin.

Thirdly, Jesus was/is more than a reformer. He is the Standard of God; Creator, Lord and Savior of All. He is the same forever, past, present and future.

You're right. I am not a Roman Catholic.
The only "progression" I hope to make is toward the likeness of Christ, as hard as it might be.

If that is the "Progressive" you and Kay are talking about then I am in agreement.

[kayky]

That's not always true. "We" know we cannot change/modify the Gospel.
Gal:1:8: But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

The problem with this response is that Paul was writing decades before the first Gospel was written. He had absolutely no knowledge of Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John.

What Christian Church teachings do/did you find "untenable"?

Well, I could write volumes about this! But many volumes have already been written! In general I find it untenable that the Bible represents literal history, that a human being can be God himself, that God breaks the laws of physics in the form of miracles.

[YahDough]

Progressive Christianity has nothing to do with "New Age" (a catchall term applied by conservatives to anything they don't understand.)

That's not always true. "We" know we cannot change/modify the Gospel.
Gal:1:8: But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Many of us are folks who left fundamentalist/evangelical churches because we realized that much of what was taught there was no longer tenable in a postmodern world. We do not "undermine" Jesus Christ. We celebrate him.

What Christian Church teachings do/did you find "untenable"?

Oh my....a favorite verse of Fundamentalism. I have heard Pentacostals consign non Pentacostals consign each other to hell, and vice versa for difference of doctrine on the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, using that verse to justify their exclusionary ways, accusin' each other of preaching a "different gospel".

Thank you Paul for starting the ball of bigotry rolling!

Yet, don't it beat all...they both believe in the Divinity of Christ, and the blood atonement merits of his death on the cross.

Such quibbling over relatively minor differences of doctrine look ridiculous to "outsiders" like me. Especially when you have the major stuff in common.

Some of us are serious about our Christianity. We don't think we can discredit/bypass the Son and His gospel and expect to find favor with the Father.

[Elijah John]

Progressive Christianity has nothing to do with "New Age" (a catchall term applied by conservatives to anything they don't understand.)

That's not always true. "We" know we cannot change/modify the Gospel.
Gal:1:8: But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Many of us are folks who left fundamentalist/evangelical churches because we realized that much of what was taught there was no longer tenable in a postmodern world. We do not "undermine" Jesus Christ. We celebrate him.

What Christian Church teachings do/did you find "untenable"?

Oh my....a favorite verse of Fundamentalism. I have heard Pentacostals consign non Pentacostals consign each other to hell, and vice versa for difference of doctrine on the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, using that verse to justify their exclusionary ways, accusin' each other of preaching a "different gospel".

Thank you Paul for starting the ball of bigotry rolling!

Yet, don't it beat all...they both believe in the Divinity of Christ, and the blood atonement merits of his death on the cross.

Such quibbling over relatively minor differences of doctrine look ridiculous to "outsiders" like me. Especially when you have the major stuff in common.

Some of us are serious about our Christianity. We don't think we can discredit/bypass the Son and expect to find favor with the Father.

No one is discrediting Jesus, Jesus himself taught direct access to God. (See the Lord's Prayer). David bypassed "the Son", as did Moses, Elijah, Isaiah, Jeremiah, and even John the Baptist praying directly to the Father, as Jesus himself says, the ONLY TRUE GOD. (John 17.3)

And there you go again, suggesting folks aren't serious about their Christianity just because they do not agree with you of a Fundamentalist interpretation OF Christianity.

Well, one of the favorite sayings of folks like Marcus Borg, and John Shelby Spong is that they take the Bible SERIOUSLY but not literally. Same goes for most in the progressive Chistianity movement.

[YahDough]

That's not always true. "We" know we cannot change/modify the Gospel.
Gal:1:8: But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

The problem with this response is that Paul was writing decades before the first Gospel was written. He had absolutely no knowledge of Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John.

Paul had direct knowledge of/from Jesus Christ. That's all he needed.

What Christian Church teachings do/did you find "untenable"?

Well, I could write volumes about this! But many volumes have already been written! In general I find it untenable that the Bible represents literal history, that a human being can be God himself, that God breaks the laws of physics in the form of miracles.

Then it doesn't even appear to me you are a "believer". I'm kinda sorry I asked.
"No thanks" to the "progressive Christian" movement.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 24 by YahDough]

I am a THEIST Christian, or more accurately a Deistic Christian, and I too am a fan of the authors that Kay cites.

And she is right, progressive Christians CELEBRATE Jesus, sometimes too much from my point of view, if they forget the Father.

You Fundamentalists do not own Jesus, and telling others they are sinning because they follow a more progressive form of Christianity is just wrong.

Remember, Jesus was a reformer. Who's to say that reform does not, must not or cannot continue?

I'm guessing you are not a Roman Catholic. If not, you too are following a somewhat progressive form of Christianity, are you not? In the form or Protestantism, a rigid FORM of Protestism, but Protestantism just the same.

First off I am not a fundamentalist. I hate that tag.

Secondly, if "progressive" Christianity preaches error and not the truth, it IS sin.

Thirdly, Jesus was/is more than a reformer. He is the Standard of God; Creator, Lord and Savior of All. He is the same forever, past, present and future.

You're right. I am not a Roman Catholic.
The only "progression" I hope to make is toward the likeness of Christ, as hard as it might be.

If that is the "Progressive" you and Kay are talking about then I am in agreement.

I could say, "if the shoe fits" or if it "acts like a duck" but I won't. Seriously, how do you differ with Fundamentalists? I will try to refrain from that tag, do you have one you prefer? Evangelical? Would "Literalist" be fair?

And are you the arbitor of what is truth and what is error? If not, which Church or which authority/organization do you appeal to for such distinctions and jugements?

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 22 by kayky]

If I understand this correctly I am in almost complete agreement. One can find value in religion and in Christianity in particular by not taking the Bible literally and by trying to grasp and follow the message of Jesus.

Again, if I understand, this is a belief that does not require a literal interpretation of the Bible or a claim that a 'God' is really there, to use Francis Schaeffer's terminology. This thinking reflects a Jesus who was not divine and in fact a disbelief in divinity or at least in a theistic divinity. Therefore there is no supernatural, personal presence in the universe.

I agree with all of this, but then how is this different from plain old non theism? Not that there is anything wrong with that.

Do you think that JESUS believed in God? Even if he did not think of himself AS God?

[YahDough]

[Replying to post 24 by YahDough]

I am a THEIST Christian, or more accurately a Deistic Christian, and I too am a fan of the authors that Kay cites.

And she is right, progressive Christians CELEBRATE Jesus, sometimes too much from my point of view, if they forget the Father.

You Fundamentalists do not own Jesus, and telling others they are sinning because they follow a more progressive form of Christianity is just wrong.

Remember, Jesus was a reformer. Who's to say that reform does not, must not or cannot continue?

I'm guessing you are not a Roman Catholic. If not, you too are following a somewhat progressive form of Christianity, are you not? In the form or Protestantism, a rigid FORM of Protestism, but Protestantism just the same.

First off I am not a fundamentalist. I hate that tag.

Secondly, if "progressive" Christianity preaches error and not the truth, it IS sin.

Thirdly, Jesus was/is more than a reformer. He is the Standard of God; Creator, Lord and Savior of All. He is the same forever, past, present and future.

You're right. I am not a Roman Catholic.
The only "progression" I hope to make is toward the likeness of Christ, as hard as it might be.

If that is the "Progressive" you and Kay are talking about then I am in agreement.

I could say, "if the shoe fits" or if it "acts like a duck" but I won't.

And yet you did say it or implied it. Does that make you a liar?

Seriously, how do you differ with Fundamentalists? I will try to refrain from that tag, do you have one you prefer? Evangelical? Would "Literalist" be fair?

Didn't anybody tell you you shouldn't call people names?

And are you the arbitor of what is truth and what is error? If not, which Church or which authority/organization do you appeal to for such distinctions and jugements?

I've been making my appeals to God the Father in the name of Jesus Christ.
Who do you go to?