How is God not responsible for the harm caused by Satan?

[lostguest]

If God created Satan and was fully aware of the harm he wanted to cause to humanity, why would he allow him to exist, gave him "super powers" and let him loose first in the Garden of Eden and then in the world.
Here's an analogy: if a person owns a vicious dog and is fully aware of the animal's capacity to cause injury, shouldn't that person be directly responsible for any damage the animal causes if he fails to either restrain or destroy the animal. Now imagine what would anyone say if that same dog owner purposely released that dog in a room full of children and locked the doors and windows?
How is this example different from God and his vicious pet Satan?

[ttruscott]

imo
Lack of agreement among churches and church people can be easily resolved without considering it all to be a sham: Christian reality includes the fact that we are at war with demons who actively join our churches and work against the elect to keep them in their sins. They do this both by false doctrines and by worldly temptations.

GOD allows this situation as HE needs the demons to show their nature as evil to encourage the sinful elect to repent of their sin and the suffering it causes and to learn to reject the non-elect reprobate as not able to repent so as to abide by HIS assessment that a banishment to hell is necessary.

But it leaves mankind in a no win situation doesn't it? Nobody can prove that they have the correct interpretations. No one can prove they have the holy spirit backing them. It could be that they have been mislead by demons. For all we know even YOU could be mislead by demons. Why should anyone believe that YOU are hearing from the holy spirit while so many others are being lead mislead?

See the delimna?

Oh every new convert to Christianity faces this dilemma for sure and that is why older christians more mature in faith, encourage new converts not to study our Church dogma nor the Bible to find GOD, but to seek GOD with a fully repentant heart and thereby learn understanding.

...

Oh ok, I think I see what you're getting at here. (sometimes it takes a while, I know) You're suggesting that we are born certain ways due to sin pre-earth. Sins we commited while we were still a spiritual being in Shoel. Us bad ones are then sent to earth to be born as humans. So if we are born say a schitzophrenic or blind, then that is because of sins we committed in spirit form?

Everything that is in nature that causes suffering is due to our sin.

If this sin has caused the degradation that ultimately occurs when that being is put into a human body, wouldn't that mean that God actually created these spiritual beings with fatal flaws in the first place?

"...wouldn't that mean that God actually created these spiritual beings with fatal flaws in the first place?" Not at all.

NO spirit was created flawed.
All were ingenuously innocent.
No perfect sinless person, besides the Christ, has been recorded as born as human.

All flaws were self created in their souls by their choosing sin. That GOD showed forth these flaws by having the sinners born as humans and by having them share a list of human disabilities is all part of HIS sentence of judgment upon their sin.

The effects of sin are caused by the sin. The judgments upon sinners cause certain effects upon them. And the punishments of GOD upon some sinners has different effects. But without the sin there is no effect, no defect by judgment or punishment.

Does the judge cause the suffering in jail? No, but he hopes the natural consequences of being in jail will do its work.

Everybody was created perfect, no flaw.
Some created imperfection within themselves by sinning.
GOD had some of these born with their imperfections showing in mind, body and spirit to prove to us how greatly debilitating and destructive the power of sin was. HE allowed the evil of their spirits to mould their minds and bodies to its shape.

He created no imperfection.

So that they became corrupted once they sinned pre-earth. He either deliberately created these fatal flaws or was oblivious to them.

What fatal flaws? Their free will? free will is not a fatal flaw at all? Please name these fatal flaws as I think you are back thinking creation must be on earth for in sheol pre-earth there certainly were no fatal flaws. Can't let this one go, eh?

IS it so unbelievable that a person with free will and no flaws and without any coercion, could reject YHWH's claim to be GOD that you must cling to the (imo false) idea that He must have created us with flaws for us to chose sin?

Good luck with that, but I don't think so,

Peace, Ted

[OnceConvinced]

imo
Lack of agreement among churches and church people can be easily resolved without considering it all to be a sham: Christian reality includes the fact that we are at war with demons who actively join our churches and work against the elect to keep them in their sins. They do this both by false doctrines and by worldly temptations.

GOD allows this situation as HE needs the demons to show their nature as evil to encourage the sinful elect to repent of their sin and the suffering it causes and to learn to reject the non-elect reprobate as not able to repent so as to abide by HIS assessment that a banishment to hell is necessary.

But it leaves mankind in a no win situation doesn't it? Nobody can prove that they have the correct interpretations. No one can prove they have the holy spirit backing them. It could be that they have been mislead by demons. For all we know even YOU could be mislead by demons. Why should anyone believe that YOU are hearing from the holy spirit while so many others are being lead mislead?

See the delimna?

Oh every new convert to Christianity faces this dilemma for sure and that is why older christians more mature in faith, encourage new converts not to study our Church dogma nor the Bible to find GOD, but to seek GOD with a fully repentant heart and thereby learn understanding.

Yet Christians still can't acheive unity. They still all come up with different interpretations. This is damning evidence that there is no Holy spirit at all.

NO spirit was created flawed.
All were ingenuously innocent.
No perfect sinless person, besides the Christ, has been recorded as born as human.

All flaws were self created in their souls by their choosing sin.

Everybody was created perfect, no flaw.
Some created imperfection within themselves by sinning.
GOD had some of these born with their imperfections showing in mind, body and spirit to prove to us how greatly debilitating and destructive the power of sin was. HE allowed the evil of their spirits to mould their minds and bodies to its shape.

He created no imperfection

But don't you see? If the soul can be so badly corrupted, then that means the soul WAS flawed in the first place. For instance if a programmer does not do his job properly, he can leave flaws in the program, where if a user does something they're not supposed to do, it can corrupt the entire system.

Any system that is created that can be so badly corrupted by a user was created flawed. There's no way to avoid that. If it was created flawless, then nothing would ever be able to corrupt it, no matter what a user did. That is what a software developer strives for. In the case of God's creations, any corruptions that occur due to the actions of the user must then fall back on God for blame. If a user can manipulate the program and screw it up, then that's only because the developer allowed for this loop hole. You don't blame the user for exposing a weakness in the system, even if they were doing something they weren't supposed to.

Even if you say that God deliberately created it that way so that a user could corrupt the system if they so desired, you are illustrating a malevolent God. If a software developer left a so called "feature" that could result in some horrible ramification for the user if they chose to use it, then the developer would have to take resonsibility for that horrible ramification as well because that's the way they designed it.

That GOD showed forth these flaws by having the sinners born as humans and by having them share a list of human disabilities is all part of HIS sentence of judgment upon their sin.

Punishment. Ok, I can go along with that. Seems like quite a sadistic system though. Inflicting a poor child with some kind of horrific disablity or illness. Doesn't make your God seem very nice to me. Hardly makes him worthy to be praised.

Just imagine it. Say God designed the system so that if you desired to overthrow God and become God yourself, that it would cause your soul to become corrupted in a certain way. When you are sent to Earth as a human, that particular corruption results in you being born with brittle bones. Just one little knock can cause a bone to break and cause major suffering to you. A poor child who has no knowledge of any previous sins is forced to endure this suffering as a small child and then for the rest of their life. That to me would be an extremely sadistic system. (and brittle bones is hardly the worst infliction a child can be born with)

Oh wait! I seem to remember some time ago debating with someone on this site and them suggesting that a new born baby was aware of their sinful past. I remember thinking how ludicrous that belief was that a child with a brain that is still not developed properly would have some kind of awareness about their sinful past and that some where along the line as they grow older they lose that awareness. Please tell me that wasn't you who came up with that ridiculous idea!

[ttruscott]

imo
Lack of agreement among churches and church people can be easily resolved without considering it all to be a sham: Christian reality includes the fact that we are at war with demons who actively join our churches and work against the elect to keep them in their sins. They do this both by false doctrines and by worldly temptations.

Yet Christians still can't acheive unity. They still all come up with different interpretations. This is damning evidence that there is no Holy spirit at all.

What part of the claim that demons are in the churches and create so called Christian doctrine to destroy unity do you not...understand?

The answer does not change because you ignore it and repeat the question.

NO spirit was created flawed.
All were ingenuously innocent.
No perfect sinless person, besides the Christ, has been recorded as born as human.

All flaws were self created in their souls by their choosing sin.

Everybody was created perfect, no flaw.
Some created imperfection within themselves by sinning.
GOD had some of these born with their imperfections showing in mind, body and spirit to prove to us how greatly debilitating and destructive the power of sin was. HE allowed the evil of their spirits to mould their minds and bodies to its shape.

He created no imperfection

But don't you see? If the soul can be so badly corrupted, then that means the soul WAS flawed in the first place.

You can plead all the worldly effects you want - your scenario is wrong. Since all sin was created by the creature by their free will, you are in fact calling their free will a flaw. They looked at GOD's claims to deity and HIS promises of salvation and said to themselves, I don't think so. I don't like it. I can do better on my own... They put their unproven hope for future happiness upon themselves and not YHWH.

Even if you say that God deliberately created it that way so that a user could corrupt the system if they so desired, you are illustrating a malevolent God.

The ability to corrupt HIS [program] purpose for their creation was their free will. I contend that that is the shining glory of HIS creation and not a flaw. It was not malevolent but benevolent because:
1. without free will true love is not possible as a forced love is not love.

2. Without free will pure holiness is not possible as a forced holiness is not holy. A stone never sins but it is not holy.

To allow HIS creation to share the heavenly experience with HIM in true loving holiness, they had to choose HIM and that experience by their own true free will. Thus only by giving them a free will could there be true love and pure holiness for HIS creation...not to shabby a deal at all and certainly benevolent.

That it could be corrupted by the choice of some does not make HIM malevolent at all, just restricted by HIS choice to make us able to share true love and pure holiness.

That GOD showed forth these flaws by having the sinners born as humans and by having them share a list of human disabilities is all part of HIS sentence of judgment upon their sin.

Punishment. Ok, I can go along with that. Seems like quite a sadistic system though. Inflicting a poor child with some kind of horrific disablity or illness. Doesn't make your God seem very nice to me. Hardly makes him worthy to be praised.

Are you listening when I say that everyone became sinners pre-earth? And the earth is how many years old? So they are how many years old and all the while stewing in their sins and planning their festivities when they get out of sheol and into a human body?

Taking an evil person and dressing him up as a Little Lord Fauntleroy does not make him innocent. Taking an evil person and giving her the appearance of sweet, innocent Little Bo Peep does not change her in one little bit. The innocent look of the newly born and infant human is a lie...only sinners are born on earth and conception on earth is not their creation!

The time of childhood is necessary for the parents and society to curb the little guy's evil impulses and teach them earthly manners. Can you imagine a 2 year old arriving on earth fully grown as an adult? 2 years is about the time they have gotten enough control of their body to feel secure an enough experience to know that really, no one is the boss of me...until they learn benevolent power hurts.

So, evil degrades people in mind, body and spirit which is shown forth at their birth in mind, body and spirit to teach those who can learn to give up evil. Rather than these "poor children" being inflicted with horrendous flaws, earthly society is inflicted with their horrendous psychopathy, ever if GOD does mute it for our benefit.

When you are sent to Earth as a human, that particular corruption results in you being born with brittle bones. Just one little knock can cause a bone to break and cause major suffering to you. A poor child who has no knowledge of any previous sins is forced to endure this suffering as a small child and then for the rest of their life. That to me would be an extremely sadistic system. (and brittle bones is hardly the worst infliction a child can be born with)

Do you accept the concept of justice or not? And that greater crime deserves greater retribution? Becoming a sinner is the greatest crime a person can do so no retribution can be too great. If a man is sentenced to jail but on the way there gets amnesia, should his sentence be commuted because he has no memory of it? I don't think so... The fact that being born results in the repression of memories of their crimes of rejecting GOD should not allow them to go free from their sentence. If the child had not already repressed their knowledge of their crimes before GOD because of their love for sin (Rom 1), they would know very clearly why they are being punished, though they look so innocent.

Oh wait! I seem to remember some time ago debating with someone on this site and them suggesting that a new born baby was aware of their sinful past. I remember thinking how ludicrous that belief was that a child with a brain that is still not developed properly would have some kind of awareness about their sinful past and that some where along the line as they grow older they lose that awareness. Please tell me that wasn't you who came up with that ridiculous idea!

No, not me...I claim they knew the truth about GOD's divinity and power (Rom 1:20) before they were born but repressed that truth because of their love for evil when they became human. Don't forget in the Christian system, spirits do not depend upon the brain or its state of development... Saint John the Baptist jumped for joy in his mother's womb when he first heard the voice of Jesus' mother, obviously aware of things no foetus can be aware of in a purely material system.

Peace, Ted

[OnceConvinced]

What part of the claim that demons are in the churches and create so called Christian doctrine to destroy unity do you not...understand?

The answer does not change because you ignore it and repeat the question.

I see lots of excuses as to why Christians can't reach agreement on what the bible says. Blaming demons just further demonstrates it's a sham.

You can plead all the worldly effects you want - your scenario is wrong.

That is your opinion.

Since all sin was created by the creature by their free will, you are in fact calling their free will a flaw. They looked at GOD's claims to deity and HIS promises of salvation and said to themselves, I don't think so. I don't like it. I can do better on my own... They put their unproven hope for future happiness upon themselves and not YHWH.

It's not the free will that is the flaw. The flaw is the fact that exercising this free will can cause corruption. If God's creation was flawless, no amount of exercising your free will would be able to do anything to ruin what was perfect.

The ability to corrupt HIS [program] purpose for their creation was their free will.

I have already taken free will into account in my previous replies. The fact that it was POSSIBLE to corrupt the program (via freewill) means that the program was flawed. I don't see why you aren't able to understand this simple truth.

Let me try again with this analogy. The Developer programs a system. In that system he programs freewill. The user then users that part of the program, exercising the free will. He then does things to the program as a result of this free will. These things then move into the rest of the program and corrupt it. Whose fault is it that this exercise of free will has corrupted the rest of the program? Partly the user, yes, because they did something they shouldn't have done, but the main blame goes to the developer who left major security flaws in their code, which enabled it all to become corrupted. In the world of software development we call those bugs. Bugs can open up the system to unintended corruption or worse deliberate corruption. If there is even ONE bug in the system, you cannot consider it flawless.

That it could be corrupted by the choice of some does not make HIM malevolent at all, just restricted by HIS choice to make us able to share true love and pure holiness.

If not malovelent, then once again we are looking at an incompetent creator. That he created a program that was so easily corrupted by the user.

Are you listening when I say that everyone became sinners pre-earth?

Yes indeed. I have been taking that claim into consideration when I replied to you. I kind of thought that was obvious. They corrupted your God's so-called flawless program in Sheol before God decided to punish them and put them on Earth with defects.

Do you accept the concept of justice or not? And that greater crime deserves greater retribution? Becoming a sinner is the greatest crime a person can do so no retribution can be too great. If a man is sentenced to jail but on the way there gets amnesia, should his sentence be commuted because he has no memory of it? I don't think so... The fact that being born results in the repression of memories of their crimes of rejecting GOD should not allow them to go free from their sentence. If the child had not already repressed their knowledge of their crimes before GOD because of their love for sin (Rom 1), they would know very clearly why they are being punished, though they look so innocent.

You want to use the example of a criminal with amnesia. You really want to compare being locked up in a prison with say some horrible painful birth defect that causes you to suffer your entire life???

Ok, clearly you are the person I was debating with some time ago. You really seriously believe that a new born baby has repressed memories of things that happened before they were born and that it's somehow just to make them suffer even though they have no concept of why they are suffering. That's not just. That is sadistic.

You want to blame the human for having the repressed memories. The fact they were somehow able to repress them, once again shows a serious flaw in your God's program. And no, if repression had not occurred, a new born baby would still not have a brain developed well enough to be able to understand why they were suffering. Even small children of 5 or 6 would still not have enough awareness or understanding of such things to be able to understand why they were inflicted with such horrors by a God who was supposed to love them. I maintain even a full grown adult would not be able to understand it. A loving God who inflicts such horrors? Loving? Really?

No, not me...I claim they knew the truth about GOD's divinity and power (Rom 1:20) before they were born but repressed that truth because of their love for evil when they became human. Don't forget in the Christian system, spirits do not depend upon the brain or its state of development... Saint John the Baptist jumped for joy in his mother's womb when he first heard the voice of Jesus' mother, obviously aware of things no foetus can be aware of in a purely material system.

Peace, Ted

I'm experience de ja vu here. Yes, we had this conversation before, with you claiming babies are simply forgetting/repressing memories of pre brith sin... which frankly is completely absurd to me. I really can't be bothered even entertaining such a notion.

Actually, I can. I started up another thread on the topic.

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... highlight=

[OnceConvinced]

I had some more thoughts about the Holy spirit last night, but to avoid derailing this thread, I have taken the discussion about it to it's own topic:

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... highlight=

[Peds nurse]

The way I look at this question, comes from being a parent, or better yet, a foster parent. I know the kids that come into my home are going to be defiant, abusive, difficult to manage, angry, and unpredictable. The reason I am a foster parent has actually nothing at all to do with these behaviors. It is because I desire a relationship with the children. I want to to love them, to teach them, and to help them become the person God would have them be. The desired relationship trumps any behaviors or damage the children might cause.

The Bible doesn't say whether or not God created the angles, but He did create us. He cast Satan out of Heaven along with other angles who rebelled. In doing this, He created a safe place in Heaven for us. He knew man would sin. He loved us enough however, to want a relationship with us, despite all the harm that Satan would fling at us. He created a way through His Son, to reconcile us to Himself.

[ttruscott]

...

It's not the free will that is the flaw. The flaw is the fact that exercising this free will can cause corruption. If God's creation was flawless, no amount of exercising your free will would be able to do anything to ruin what was perfect.

...

Instead of asking us to juggle analogies, just tell me where is the flaw in this:

1. GOD's plan was to create true love and true holiness.

2. True love and true holiness can only proceed from a mind with free will as a forced love and an forced holiness are not true in the least.

3. By giving us free will, a true option of choosing against HIM had to be available or it is not a choice at all and therefor the will is not free but constrained by HIS will, destroying any chance for true love and holiness.

4. Therefore, creating us as ingenuous innocents with the ability to make true free will decisions and allowing us to use that free will to corrupt HIS creation does not prove HIS creation was flawed, it only proves that is was possible to become flawed as a necessity of reaching HIS goal by our free wills...

Without the possibility of the corruption, a possibility you see as a flaw, there is no possibility of the full heavenly communion of full and perfect love and holiness shared between GOD and all of HIS Family.

You can certainly keep thinking that the possibility of corruption indicates a flaw but these are my reasons for not accepting that analysis - it is contrary to and inimical to the Christian understanding of HIS reason for our creation, the heavenly communion.

Peace, Ted

[Peds nurse]

[Replying to post 51 by OnceConvinced]

Since the Holy Spirit comes from God, and God is good, the Spirit cannot contradict the word of God. This would nullify the thought that demons could be the Spirit. We can ignore the Holy Spirit, and we can also say that the Holy Spirit is in us, when indeed it may not be. To have the Holy Spirit dwell in us, we must acknowledge God.

[OnceConvinced]

4. Therefore, creating us as ingenuous innocents with the ability to make true free will decisions and allowing us to use that free will to corrupt HIS creation does not prove HIS creation was flawed, it only proves that is was possible to become flawed as a necessity of reaching HIS goal by our free wills...

Therefore it's as I have said in earlier posts, what we have then is a malevolent creator. A creator who deliberately set in place a system where the use of freewill could corrupt things. That would be like setting up a play room for your child where you put up a cookie jar and then say to the child, don't eat the cookies or the cookies will turn into poisonous vipers.

Without the possibility of the corruption, a possibility you see as a flaw, there is no possibility of the full heavenly communion of full and perfect love and holiness shared between GOD and all of HIS Family.

If not a flaw, then it is a feature. A very malevolent feature, surely? And yes I am going to use analogies because these analogies are accurate. It would be like creating a computer program where if you pressed the # key, it causes the computer to poke your eye out.

You can certainly keep thinking that the possibility of corruption indicates a flaw but these are my reasons for not accepting that analysis - it is contrary to and inimical to the Christian understanding of HIS reason for our creation, the heavenly communion.

Peace, Ted

I will accept that we see things entirely differently here.

[OnceConvinced]

[Replying to post 51 by OnceConvinced]

Since the Holy Spirit comes from God, and God is good, the Spirit cannot contradict the word of God. This would nullify the thought that demons could be the Spirit. We can ignore the Holy Spirit, and we can also say that the Holy Spirit is in us, when indeed it may not be. To have the Holy Spirit dwell in us, we must acknowledge God.

Not sure what part of my post 51 you are referring to here. Try using the "quote" button, as that will allow you to take a snippet of the larger post and delete the rest.

If you are trying to address my point about the holy spirit not bringing unity, then I would have to say that first you have to determine what the word of God is actually saying before we can say anything contradicts it. There has to be an agreement on what it is saying. But the Holy spirit cannot seem to bring an agreement between Christians on what it says.