What is the difference between magic and miracle?

[OnceConvinced]

I am presuming that god and the devil are real. I am presuming here that miracles and magic are real. They are supernatural events of some kind. They are not tricks done by shysters. They are not freak occurences as a result of luck or being in the right place at the right time.

It seems some Christians get a little offended when you use the term "magic" for deeds done by god. They seem to want to use the term "miracle". But really, what is the difference? Both appear to be a supernatural event that either involves something being generated from nothing or something changing as a result.

The only difference I can get is that a "miracle" is a supernatural event that is caused by god, while "magic" is a supernatural event caused by Satan. But really, what is the difference? How is a "miracle" different to "magic"?

[Clownboat]

...

The only difference I can get is that a "miracle" is a supernatural event that is caused by god, while "magic" is a supernatural event caused by Satan. But really, what is the difference? How is a "miracle" different to "magic"?

NO different...

Ex 7:10 So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and did just as the Lord commanded. Aaron threw his staff down in front of Pharaoh and his officials, and it became a snake. 11 Pharaoh then summoned wise men and sorcerers, and the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts: 12 Each one threw down his staff and it became a snake. But Aarons staff swallowed up their staffs. 13 Yet Pharaohs heart became hard and he would not listen to them, just as the Lord had said.

...

except Satanic power fails before GODly power since it is a power allowed by GOD and pulled back at HIS decision.

imo
It is like spiritual power is based upon commitment. Since the persons of the Trinity are perfectly committed to each other in loving holiness, their power is perfect and complete. As the person who showed his deeper commitment by being the first to declare himself against YHWH as true deity and claimed HE was a false god telling us all lies about hell and salvation to manipulate people, Satan has the most power of the demons with the whole pantheon of demons following along behind. As well, the one who first committed himself to YHWH as his GOD and to HIS holiness fully and deeply, was the Arch Angel Michael, with Gabriel, Uriel and Raphael not far behind as the cardinal angels.

Sinners facing the power of Satan need not fear though because by faith and by HIS grace we will have HIS strength to resist the devil and make him flee. And imo, when an elect person has perfected their commitment to GOD by faith, they will be stronger than Satan due to being closer to the source of such power.

Peace, Ted

It sounds like you take this literally.
How big was Aaron's staff in order to fit the mass of 3 other staves? Something that large would not make for much of a walking staff IMO. Perhaps the magicians had really small staves, perhaps more for swatting each other on the butt cheeks then for actually walking?

Have you given this thought? Perhaps more magic?

[Clownboat]

[Replying to post 1 by OnceConvinced]

I think it might also be interesting to also reflect on why we non-theists will sometimes prefer to refer to "miracles" as "magic". Certainly there must be something different about the words, even to us.

But to answer the OP, I think the difference is that "miracles" specifically refer to good supernatural events, whereas "magic" is more general. That would mean that it's not incorrect to refer to God's actions as "magical", although it might not do his "goodness" proper respect.

My perception:
"Magic" is supernatural events that we know are not true (not considering children here).
"Miracle" is the word used when you still want to believe in magic, but your an adult.

[Clownboat]

I am presuming that god and the devil are real. I am presuming here that miracles and magic are real. They are supernatural events of some kind. They are not tricks done by shysters. They are not freak occurences as a result of luck or being in the right place at the right time.

It seems some Christians get a little offended when you use the term "magic" for deeds done by god. They seem to want to use the term "miracle". But really, what is the difference? Both appear to be a supernatural event that either involves something being generated from nothing or something changing as a result.

The only difference I can get is that a "miracle" is a supernatural event that is caused by god, while "magic" is a supernatural event caused by Satan. But really, what is the difference? How is a "miracle" different to "magic"?

C. S. Lewis grapples with these sorts of questions in his book Miracles, so if you want a really competent treatment of this issue, I refer you to him.

The short answer, however, is that miracles have a different atmosphere than magical acts. Miracles (in the NT sense) are supposed to do on a small scale and in a short period of time what God is already doing on a large scale over long periods of time - or else to foreshadow something He will do. So, for example, Circe turning Odysseus' crew into swine qualifies as "magic" because it seems so... out of place. It neither replicates natural events, nor does it foreshadow any eschatological ones. Jesus feeding the 5 000 with five loaves and two fish, on the other hand, is suggestive of the natural processes of fertility by which fish reproduce and new grain comes in each year. Hence it qualifies as a "miracle."

As you can see, this is more of a spectrum of event kinds than it is a black-and-white sharply defined division. So, for example, the cures attributed to the Roman Emperor Vespian could be classified as either magic or miracle, as while they don't seem particularly arbitrary, they also seem just a tad out of place, given that their only context appears to be that of giving divine sanction to his rise to power. There is also the somewhat subjective factor of what the individual considers to constitute "fitting in with" the themes we find in nature.

Once again, I emphasize that C. S. Lewis does a much better job of laying this all out than I do, so if it seems like there's some kernel of a real response in what I have to say, I encourage you to read Lewis' book for yourself.

I think this furthers the point I just made.

If you go to a show and watch a guy pull more things out of his hat then would physically fit, we understand it to be a magic trick.

Read the same event out of your favorite holy book, and adults can call it a miracle. How is a magic trick more credible when read thousands of years later compared to something you witness with your own eyes?

Same event and both I would consider a magic trick if I saw them in person, but if I still had my Christian beliefs, as an adult, I would call the fish and loaves story a miracle. Most adults don't believe in magic after all.

[Clownboat]

I am presuming that god and the devil are real. I am presuming here that miracles and magic are real. They are supernatural events of some kind. They are not tricks done by shysters. They are not freak occurences as a result of luck or being in the right place at the right time.

It seems some Christians get a little offended when you use the term "magic" for deeds done by god. They seem to want to use the term "miracle". But really, what is the difference? Both appear to be a supernatural event that either involves something being generated from nothing or something changing as a result.

The only difference I can get is that a "miracle" is a supernatural event that is caused by god, while "magic" is a supernatural event caused by Satan. But really, what is the difference? How is a "miracle" different to "magic"?

A miracle is magic from God, which is considered 'good'. All other magic is bad. At least that's how I've been trained by the church
Common sense says there's no real difference other than where you think the magic comes from

I must assume you have been to a magic show before, but you don't really think there is something supernatural going on when they pull a rabbit out of there hat for example... right?!? There is nothing inherently evil about it... right?!?

Why would a rabbit or fish out of the hat story from 2 thousand years ago be any different than one from today?

[Zzyzx]

.

A miracle is magic from God, which is considered 'good'. All other magic is bad. At least that's how I've been trained by the church
Common sense says there's no real difference other than where you think the magic comes from

Thus, common sense differs from church training.

When one realizes that training they have received is in error, it would be prudent to reexamine the training / teaching to correct defects (and perhaps find different sources of truth)

[bjs]

Miracle: (noun) An extraordinary occurrence that surpasses all human powers or natural forces and is ascribed to a divine cause.

Magic: (noun) The practice of using various techniques, as incantation, to exert control over the supernatural or the forces of nature. (Other definitions more rightly fit under the term illusion as opposed to magic.)


Looking through this thread, it surprises me that so many people are confused by the difference. We have posters saying things along of the lines of magic is what we know is not real and miracles are what people call it when they want to believe in magic. Or common sense says that there is not difference.

Do these posters think that they are somehow scoring points against theists by misusing the words? We are not talking about deep theology here. We are just talking about basic English.

[Clownboat]

Miracle: (noun) An extraordinary occurrence that surpasses all human powers or natural forces and is ascribed to a divine cause.

Magic: (noun) The practice of using various techniques, as incantation, to exert control over the supernatural or the forces of nature. (Other definitions more rightly fit under the term illusion as opposed to magic.)


Looking through this thread, it surprises me that so many people are confused by the difference. We have posters saying things along of the lines of magic is what we know is not real and miracles are what people call it when they want to believe in magic. Or common sense says that there is not difference.

Do these posters think that they are somehow scoring points against theists by misusing the words? We are not talking about deep theology here. We are just talking about basic English.

Please use these basic English skills you refer to and understand that I was talking about my perception of how people use the words, not discussing dictionary definitions.

My perception:
"Magic" is supernatural events that we know are not true (not considering children here).
"Miracle" is the word used when you still want to believe in magic, but your an adult.

Next, don't forget your basic English skills to then read my example of a rabbit out of a hat compared to fish and loaves pulled from a sack.

Would you care to explain why you disagree with my perception of the uses of these words (assuming you do)?

Why is a rabbit out of a hat magic, but loaves and fishes from a sack a miracle? If you saw a magician pull loaves and fishes from a hat, would you automatically call it a miracle? I think not, and that is my point. Also, consider the fact that a magician could claim a divine source for his magic, so adding a divine claim to it does not make much of a difference.

So far, my perception holds, but I am open to change.

[Wordleymaster1]

.

A miracle is magic from God, which is considered 'good'. All other magic is bad. At least that's how I've been trained by the church
Common sense says there's no real difference other than where you think the magic comes from

Thus, common sense differs from church training.

When one realizes that training they have received is in error, it would be prudent to reexamine the training / teaching to correct defects (and perhaps find different sources of truth)

Of course it would. Do we think that happens frequently and honestly though?
I don't. But what do I know?

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to post 3 by ttruscott]

except Satanic power fails before GODly power since it is a power allowed by GOD and pulled back at HIS decision.

imo
It is like spiritual power is based upon commitment. Since the persons of the Trinity are perfectly committed to each other in loving holiness, their power is perfect and complete. As the person who showed his deeper commitment by being the first to declare himself against YHWH as true deity and claimed HE was a false god telling us all lies about hell and salvation to manipulate people, Satan has the most power of the demons with the whole pantheon of demons following along behind. As well, the one who first committed himself to YHWH as his GOD and to HIS holiness fully and deeply, was the Arch Angel Michael, with Gabriel, Uriel and Raphael not far behind as the cardinal angels.

In other words, Satanic power is power that God chooses to grant to Satan and with which He allows Satan to torment humankind and to seduce humans into eternal damnation. What a GUY! It's fortunate for us that God loves us. Down here on Earth a parent who paid and encouraged a third party to to torment and seduce the children of the parent, would warrant a call to child protective services.

[wiploc]

Miracle: (noun) An extraordinary occurrence that surpasses all human powers or natural forces and is ascribed to a divine cause.

Magic: (noun) The practice of using various techniques, as incantation, to exert control over the supernatural or the forces of nature. ...


Looking through this thread, it surprises me that so many people are confused by the difference.

I don't see how you can be confused by our "confusion." Let's try to parse your definitions you offer:

Does it make any sense to speak of an occurrence surpassing powers? Or is that just gibberish?

We often find theists claiming that everything is miraculous, yet your definition says miracles must be extraordinary.

Can "various techniques, such as incantation," include prayer? Can an occurrence surpassing powers involve technique? How does surpassing natural forces differ from exerting control over the forces of nature?

The root difference in magic and miracle, according to you, seems to be that one is a practice and the other an occurrence. Thus, if Jehovah had a practice of answering prayers, that would be magic; but if a witch caused a werewolf to occur, that would be miracle.

That's clear as mud, even before we note that there are many other dictionaries with definitions that conflict with those you offered. For instance, there's this definition of magic: "any extraordinary or mystical influence, charm, power, etc." ("magic." Dictionary.com Unabridged. Random House, Inc. 02 Oct. 2014. <Dictionary.com http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/magic>.) That definition is clear, but makes all miracles into magic. And it has just as much authority as the confusing definitions you posted.

Perhaps, since you think this is cut and dried, you can explain the difference in your own words. What is magic? What is miracle? What is the difference?