What is nothing?

[Star]

There seems to be a lot of confusion about the meaning of "nothing".

I posit there can only be one true meaning of nothing; it's that which doesn't exist, never existed, can't exist, and never will exist, in any universe or other state of existence, period. It's no thing.

Debate for or against this.

Here's a good debate on nothing. As much as I like Lawrence M. Krauss, I think he confuses people with his sloppy use of the term. By his own admission (insistence even) there are two other definitions of nothing.

[arian]

In real life he stands outside the mall with a bell, and he really is everywhere, I may have just seen him at Sears, then I go to the other side of the mall, .. and there he is at Macie's.

So I realized that Santa does exist, just as he is depicted in stories, in dictionaries, in folklore, so why would I say I don't believe in Santa?

You realize it's just a man in a Santa suit, right? I knew this since I was six or seven.

Santa isn't real, but Poe's are.

Oh that's just great, .. really! After 50 some odd years I start believing in Santa again, and you just ruined it. Thanks a lot.

But seriously, this may actually help you see/understand the existence of 'nothing'. You said: "You realize it's just a man in a Santa suit, right?" ... think about it?

Q. Who is Santa?

A. "A man in a Santa suit."

So what are you going to tell me now, .. that Santa doesn't exist? Like after we debate and debate on 'nothing', .. and then you guys tell me that "nothing doesn't exist"?

Santa, is a man wearing a Santa suit, do you have another Santa in mind? Do you imagine a Santa that 'doesn't exist'? Can you describe him to me? Or how about describe to me a 'nothing' that doesn't exist?

[Star]

[Replying to post 91 by arian]

You don't understand what i mean by "nothing." I mean NO THING.

A man in a red suit is something. It's a human being. You may have heard of this creature before.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/top ... uman-being

The suit's probably made out of some cheap artificial fabric, such as polyester, and really uncomfortable.

http://www.santasuitexpress.com/economy-santa-suit.html

Coca Cola marketing popularized the standardized red suit.




Santa was loosely modeled after Saint Nicholas, a gift-giving Christian bishop who lived in the 3rd/4th Century.




While Santa doesn't exist as a real magical person, the fictional character and its impact on popular culture is still very much real. Therefore, Santa is something, and not nothing.

[arian]

[Replying to post 91 by arian]

You don't understand what i mean by "nothing." I mean NO THING.

A man in a red suit is something. It's a human being. You may have heard of this creature before.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/top ... uman-being

The suit's probably made out of some cheap artificial fabric, such as polyester, and really uncomfortable.

http://www.santasuitexpress.com/economy-santa-suit.html

Coca Cola marketing popularized the standardized red suit.




Santa was loosely modeled after Saint Nicholas, a gift-giving Christian bishop who lived in the 3rd/4th Century.

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While Santa doesn't exist as a real magical person, the fictional character and its impact on popular culture is still very much real. Therefore, Santa is something, and not nothing.

Santa Saint Nicolas etc.) exists as a real person (at and around the mall, dads dressing up as Santa etc.) AND as a magical person in story books, movies and cartoons who delivers toys to children around the world. I believe it is you who doesn't really understand. See my quote;

Q. Who is Santa?

A. "A man in a Santa suit."

So what are you going to tell me now, .. that Santa doesn't exist? Like after we debate and debate on 'nothing', .. and then you guys tell me that "nothing doesn't exist"?

Santa, is a man wearing a Santa suit, do you have another Santa in mind? Do you imagine a Santa that 'doesn't exist'? Can you describe him to me? Or how about describe to me a 'nothing' that doesn't exist?

As for "No Thing", it does exist, it is there between my glass and water. It truly IS nothing.

You think I would waste my time debating something (which by the way I can describe with such accuracy, both scientifically and philosophically) if it didn't exist?

But it IS amazing how you can talk about something you strongly believe doesn't exists!?!

And yes sir, I believe 'no thing' is the same thing as "nothing". I don't see a difference?

Thanks Star.

[Star]

You think I would waste my time debating something (which by the way I can describe with such accuracy, both scientifically and philosophically) if it didn't exist?

You accurately described something?

You'll have to provide me a post number or link.

It sounded like you were saying Santa is nothing just because he doesn't exist.

[Star]

And BTW, there are plenty of "things" between your glass and water.

Incredulity doesn't make for a good argument.

[arian]

And BTW, there are plenty of "things" between your glass and water.

Incredulity doesn't make for a good argument.

Incredulity on your part (not believing that nothing/Santa does exist), or mine? Because even Santa exists exactly as described. Unless you are thinking of a non-existent Santa?

Todays science is so messed up, and I believe it is partly because science has yet to understand "What is nothing", .. another words they must understand and accept the existence of 'nothing'.

-----------

Yes, I understand that there are a lot of 'things' between my water and the glass, but 'nothing' is right there between those 'things'.
The way I see it is that without the existence of 'nothing', you could not differentiate between 'one thing/object' or another. Even if it's two sheets of perfectly flat steel laying on top of each other, the 'nothing' is what separates them. Without the existence of 'nothing', .. or not understanding that 'nothing' really does exists, science could start imagining that the universe doesn't exists;

http://www.forbes.com/sites/bridainepar ... snt-exist/

Or other silly things like that the mind is just a term for brain activity.

[arian]

You think I would waste my time debating something (which by the way I can describe with such accuracy, both scientifically and philosophically) if it didn't exist?

You accurately described something?

You'll have to provide me a post number or link.

Start with the page I started to describe 'nothing' on YOUR post on "What is nothing?"

It sounded like you were saying Santa is nothing just because he doesn't exist.

No, Santa is Santa, and "nothing" is "nothing", and they both exist. One as "Santa" and the other as "nothing". One thing I cannot tell you or talk to you about is "something that doesn't exist", and it is because???... ________

.. because if it's "something", it exists.

Here, .. how about you explain to me how can something 'infinite' expand?
Or how you can deny a "Before the Big-bang"? Thanks.

[Star]

You think I would waste my time debating something (which by the way I can describe with such accuracy, both scientifically and philosophically) if it didn't exist?

You accurately described something?

You'll have to provide me a post number or link.

Start with the page I started to describe 'nothing' on YOUR post on "What is nothing?"

It sounded like you were saying Santa is nothing just because he doesn't exist.

No, Santa is Santa, and "nothing" is "nothing", and they both exist. One as "Santa" and the other as "nothing". One thing I cannot tell you or talk to you about is "something that doesn't exist", and it is because???... ________

.. because if it's "something", it exists.

Here, .. how about you explain to me how can something 'infinite' expand?
Or how you can deny a "Before the Big-bang"? Thanks.

Sorry, I don't see any post where you accurately describe anything.

Santa's a fictional holiday character, which is how he can be something, yet not a real man.

The space between galaxies is expanding because of dark energy. Galaxies, and the space between them, are finite, which is how we're able to meaningfully measure it.

If anything's nothing, it's your argument.

[arian]

You think I would waste my time debating something (which by the way I can describe with such accuracy, both scientifically and philosophically) if it didn't exist?

You accurately described something?

You'll have to provide me a post number or link.

Start with the page I started to describe 'nothing' on YOUR post on "What is nothing?"

It sounded like you were saying Santa is nothing just because he doesn't exist.

No, Santa is Santa, and "nothing" is "nothing", and they both exist. One as "Santa" and the other as "nothing". One thing I cannot tell you or talk to you about is "something that doesn't exist", and it is because???... ________

.. because if it's "something", it exists.

Here, .. how about you explain to me how can something 'infinite' expand?
Or how you can deny a "Before the Big-bang"? Thanks.

Sorry, I don't see any post where you accurately describe anything.

I described and demonstrated the existence of 'nothing'

Santa's a fictional holiday character, which is how he can be something, yet not a real man.

I have also demonstrated the existence of Santa the fictional character as a real man ringing a bell, having little kids sit in his lap screaming and taking pictures. Why do you keep insisting that he is not real?

The space between galaxies is expanding because of dark energy. Galaxies, and the space between them, are finite, which is how we're able to meaningfully measure it.

Show me an example of "dark energy expanding galaxies", .. or dark energy expanding 'anything', .. or how about 'dark energy' itself outside of un-evidenced sci-fi fairytales?

The only 'evidence' of an expanding universe is in the fairytale called "Big Bang Evolution", there is no other 'evidence'. An expanding universe has to expand in, or 'into' something. The only place a universe can expand into nothing, or "Not into anything" is in fairytales.

If anything's nothing, it's your argument.

Finally!

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to post 1 by Star]

What is nothing? If it is then it is not nothing.

I believe that the answer is related to the associated question: What is a thing? A thing occupies space, is a defined unit and exists for a length of time. Things can be composite, that is made from other things: families are made of people; people are made of cells; cells are made of atoms; atoms are made of sub-atomic particles. Of we rule out the possibility of an actual infinite progression then at some level there must be the things which are fundamentally indivisible. Nothing then would be the complete absence of any of these fundamental things.

Everything that is real is something, eg. space, time, matter, energy, forces, consciousness, quantum mechanics, etc.

We recognize that black holes exist. Let's assume that it's "opposite" also exists -- a perfect vacuum somewhere in space. Let's examine a cubic foot of this perfect vacuum.

That cubic foot of measured space contains nothing -- not one proton, neutron, electron, or whatever. But it exists in a measured space over some time and would thus be something.

We look into an empty paper bag and say it contains nothing. But what we actually mean is that it contains nothing detectable by our measuring devices -- eyes, touch, etc.

It would seem that true scientific "nothings" by definition cannot exist.

================================ Lawrence Krauss ===========================================



The universe will "end" in one of two ways it seems. Gravity will win out and it will collapse back upon itself, or expansion will continue infinitely and rip everything



Big Rip[edit]Main article: Big Rip
In the special case of phantom dark energy, which has even more negative pressure than a simple cosmological constant, the density of dark energy increases with time, causing the rate of acceleration to increase, leading to a steady increase in the Hubble constant. As a result, all material objects in the universe, starting with galaxies and eventually (in a finite time) all forms, no matter how small, will disintegrate into unbound elementary particles and radiation, ripped apart by the phantom energy force and shooting apart from each other. The end state of the universe is a singularity, as the dark energy density and expansion rate becomes infinite.

from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_f ... e_universe


singularity -- infinite mass