Is forgiving others a "work"?

[Elijah John]

Paul says in Ephesians were are saved by grace through faith, that it is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God, not by works, lest any man should boast.

John has Jesus saying we must be "born again" to be saved.

In Matthew, Jesus says "for if you forgive others their trespasses, your Heavenly Father will forgive you, but if you do not forgive others, NEITHER WILL YOUR FATHER FORGIVE YOUR TRESPASSES. (my emphasis). Mt.6, 14,15

Notice Jesus did not say, "unless you are washed in my blood" or "unless you are born again".

Question for debate, is the forgiveness of others that Jesus advocates as essential for salvation in Matthew, the kind of "works" that Paul discounts completely as necessary for salvation?

Secondary question...in light of Jesus warning in Matthew, is it possible to lose one's salvation by nursing grudges EVEN if one is "born again"?

[Overcomer]

Elijah John wrote:

... is the forgiveness of others that Jesus advocates as essential for salvation in Matthew, the kind of "works" that Paul discounts completely as necessary for salvation?

Jesus isn't saying that we have to forgive others to receive salvation. Look at the verse in context. It's a statement made in Christ's sermon on the Mount. The whole sermon is on the subject of how a follower of God should live. It's about ethical living or "kingdom ethics" as theologians call it. Christ is bringing people's attention to the fact that God has forgiven them. Therefore, how can they refuse to forgive others when God has forgiven them so much? Jesus' point is simply that God forgives us out of love and he expects us to do the same. The passage has nothing to do with salvation.

You can make the Bible say anything you want by taking verses out of context. That is what you're doing with this particular verse -- taking it out of its context and assigning a meaning to it that it does not have.

For a full explanation of the text, read this:

https://bible.org/article/issue-forgive ... rmon-mount

Elijah John wrote:

Secondary question...in light of Jesus warning in Matthew, is it possible to lose one's salvation by nursing grudges EVEN if one is "born again"?

As I said, Christ's warning has nothing to do with salvation. However, to answer the question re: losing salvation, the answer is no. It is impossible to lose one's salvation.

We are all born with spirits dead in sin. When we accept Christ as our Lord and Saviour, he brings our dead spirits alive in him. In fact, if translated literally, the phrase is actually "born from above". It is God who performs the rebirth in us. It is not something that we can do ourselves. When we are born of God, we have a new heart, one that wants to please him (See Ezekiel 36:26; 2 Corinthians 5:9; Colossians 1:10). It is as impossible to be "unborn" spiritually as it is to be "unborn" physically. It is Christ who keeps us as it says in John 10:28: "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand."

Upon conversion, we are filled with the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit who points out sin and gives us the ability to resist and overcome it. The goal is for us to become like Christ. This is the process of sanctification. It lasts a lifetime and we will never become totally free from sin until the next life. However, we should all be attempting to clean up our acts under the guidance of and with the power of the Holy Spirit.

So Christians will sin, but, as we are told in 1 John 1:19, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." Note that John is writing to followers of Christ here, not to unbelievers.

Also note that, later in that same letter, John says this: "No one who lives in him (God) keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him" (1 John 3:6). It's more clear in the Greek, but even in English we can see what is being said here, that no one can keep repeating the same sins over and over and over if he or she is truly born of God. Some people misunderstand the verse to mean that anybody who calls himself a Christian and commits a sin isn't really a Christian. That isn't true. The passage is talking about the person who persists in the same sin habit and couldn't care less about confessing and repenting of it. We have to question whether such a person really is born-again and filled with the Holy Spirit.

[Elijah John]

Elijah John wrote:

... is the forgiveness of others that Jesus advocates as essential for salvation in Matthew, the kind of "works" that Paul discounts completely as necessary for salvation?

Jesus isn't saying that we have to forgive others to receive salvation. Look at the verse in context. It's a statement made in Christ's sermon on the Mount. The whole sermon is on the subject of how a follower of God should live. It's about ethical living or "kingdom ethics" as theologians call it. Christ is bringing people's attention to the fact that God has forgiven them. Therefore, how can they refuse to forgive others when God has forgiven them so much? Jesus' point is simply that God forgives us out of love and he expects us to do the same. The passage has nothing to do with salvation.

You can make the Bible say anything you want by taking verses out of context. That is what you're doing with this particular verse -- taking it out of its context and assigning a meaning to it that it does not have.

For a full explanation of the text, read this:

https://bible.org/article/issue-forgive ... rmon-mount

Elijah John wrote:

Secondary question...in light of Jesus warning in Matthew, is it possible to lose one's salvation by nursing grudges EVEN if one is "born again"?

As I said, Christ's warning has nothing to do with salvation. However, to answer the question re: losing salvation, the answer is no. It is impossible to lose one's salvation.

We are all born with spirits dead in sin. When we accept Christ as our Lord and Saviour, he brings our dead spirits alive in him. In fact, if translated literally, the phrase is actually "born from above". It is God who performs the rebirth in us. It is not something that we can do ourselves. When we are born of God, we have a new heart, one that wants to please him (See Ezekiel 36:26; 2 Corinthians 5:9; Colossians 1:10). It is as impossible to be "unborn" spiritually as it is to be "unborn" physically. It is Christ who keeps us as it says in John 10:28: "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand."

Upon conversion, we are filled with the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit who points out sin and gives us the ability to resist and overcome it. The goal is for us to become like Christ. This is the process of sanctification. It lasts a lifetime and we will never become totally free from sin until the next life. However, we should all be attempting to clean up our acts under the guidance of and with the power of the Holy Spirit.

So Christians will sin, but, as we are told in 1 John 1:19, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." Note that John is writing to followers of Christ here, not to unbelievers.

Also note that, later in that same letter, John says this: "No one who lives in him (God) keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him" (1 John 3:6). It's more clear in the Greek, but even in English we can see what is being said here, that no one can keep repeating the same sins over and over and over if he or she is truly born of God. Some people misunderstand the verse to mean that anybody who calls himself a Christian and commits a sin isn't really a Christian. That isn't true. The passage is talking about the person who persists in the same sin habit and couldn't care less about confessing and repenting of it. We have to question whether such a person really is born-again and filled with the Holy Spirit.

If the Bible is inffalible and non-contradictory as Fundamentalism claims, then just one supposedly "out of context" contradictory verse is all that is necessary to disprove that claim.

Be that as it may, there are others..."Not everyone who says to me "Lord, Lord" will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but only those that DO (my emphasis) the will of my Father in Heaven".

And what is the will of the Father? It is defined in the "Law and the Prophets", is it not? And what is the summary of the Law and the Prophets? Jesus indicated that it is summarlzed in two places, the Golden Rule, to treat others as we would like to be treated, and the two great laws of love, love of God and neighbor.

And what was that parable, in Matthew I believe, about the sheep and the goats. Jesus tells folks that if they give water to the " least of these" on his behalf, they will go to Heaven, and if folks do not give water to the thirsty etc, they will go to hell. Sounds to me a salvation based on works, not beliefs.

Nothing about being "washed in the blood" or being "born again". Why is that?

Evangelicals and Fundamentalists do have a valid interpretation of the NT I would say, but it is not the ONLY valid interpretation. And that goes to the nature of the Bible itself, it is often contradictory.

And where it is contradictory, I choose to believe the side that is more in accord Reason, and that advocates right and loving action, as opposed to "right" belief.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 3 by Elijah John]

Also, if Jesus is NOT talking about salvation in the verses following the Lord's prayer, what then does it mean to be UNforgiven by the Father, as in MT 6.15.?

[Wordleymaster1]

Paul says in Ephesians were are saved by grace through faith, that it is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God, not by works, lest any man should boast.

John has Jesus saying we must be "born again" to be saved.

In Matthew, Jesus says "for if you forgive others their trespasses, your Heavenly Father will forgive you, but if you do not forgive others, NEITHER WILL YOUR FATHER FORGIVE YOUR TRESPASSES. (my emphasis). Mt.6, 14,15

Notice Jesus did not say, "unless you are washed in my blood" or "unless you are born again".

Question for debate, is the forgiveness of others that Jesus advocates as essential for salvation in Matthew, the kind of "works" that Paul discounts completely as necessary for salvation?

Secondary question...in light of Jesus warning in Matthew, is it possible to lose one's salvation by nursing grudges EVEN if one is "born again"?

I don't see how forgiving others could be a pre-req in a way of being forgiven. I get the concept but it seems more symbolic than anything else. Plus the bible seems contradictory in many other ways - not sure why this should be any different
That's not to question what we're to be forgiven FROM to begin with.

[1213]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

Eternal life is a gift for righteous.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

That is why person must be or become righteous to get eternal life. Therefore Jesus taught:

Jesus answered him, "Most assuredly, I tell you, unless one is born anew, he can't see the Kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born?" Jesus answered, "Most assuredly I tell you, unless one is born of water and spirit, he can't enter into the Kingdom of God! That which is born of the flesh is flesh. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Don't marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born anew.'
John 3:3-7

There must happen change in persons heart so that he becomes righteous if person is not yet righteous. Righteous person does righteous actions or works, because he wants to do so. He has right understanding / attitude and therefore wants to do good and right. Righteous person can be recognized by his actions.

By their fruits you will know them. Do you gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree produces good fruit; but the corrupt tree produces evil fruit. A good tree can't produce evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree produce good fruit. Every tree that doesn't grow good fruit is cut down, and thrown into the fire.
Mat. 7:16-19

He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

Actions matter, because they tell what the person is inside, but the actions itself are only external mark of what the person is inside. The inside is what matters, because from there comes all good or evil actions. And by inside is determined what happens person after he dies.

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and unrighteousness. You blind Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup and of the platter, that the outside of it may become clean also.
Matthew 23:25-26

For out of the heart come forth evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, sexual sins, thefts, false testimony, and blasphemies.
Matt. 15:19

That is why Jesus came to help people to born anew, to have change in their heart.

And the change can happen by words that Jesus said, therefore it is said:

It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is useless. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
John 6:63

Truly, truly I tell you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death at all.
John. 8:51

The spirit that is in his words is the blood that saves.

No works itself is essential. Righteous mind is. And if person has righteous mind, he is forgiving, because he understands it is good and right (at least usually).