Mormons "are not Christians"?

Argue for and against Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Zzyzx
Site Supporter
Posts: 25141
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2007 10:38 pm
Location: Bible Belt USA
Has thanked: 55 times
Been thanked: 93 times

Mormons "are not Christians"?

Post #1

Post by Zzyzx »

.
In one of the threads a self-proclaimed Christian said:
Overcomer wrote: Well, first of all, Mormons aren't Christians so citing them as an example of a "Christian" church that had a problem with someone disguised as a homeless man doesn't represent Christianity at all. But the "Mormons are not Christians" argument is an altogether different issue so I won't belabour it.
Who says? Who decides? Based on what criteria?

Perhaps Overcomer will enlighten us (or discover s/he is wrong)?
.
Non-Theist

ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence

DanieltheDragon
Savant
Posts: 6224
Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:37 pm
Location: Charlotte
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Mormons "are not Christians"?

Post #2

Post by DanieltheDragon »

[Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]

/curses ZzYyXx I was just about to make this thread!!!!!!!! curse your ability to type faster than I!!!!


ok that being said.


1Chris-tian noun kris-chn, krish-
: a person who believes in the teachings of Jesus Christ


It appears that Mormons believe in the teachings of Christ so as far as I can tell that fits the definition.

Is there something I am missing here? As that is the definition of Christian.

The book of Mormon from my experience appears to be an extra special revelation in addendum to the OT and NT this does not negate the bible as we know it today but adds to it. Please can someone explain why mormons are not christian as far as I can tell all evidence points that they are.

I think this whole business that has cropped up lately about who is or is not a christian is deeply troubling and speaks to prejudices the poster of said statements may or may not have. If they want to call themselves christian who are we to say they are not. If it fits the definition it is imho.

If you have some special definition that supercedes all other definitions please enlighten us.

mwtech
Apprentice
Posts: 217
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2014 10:46 am
Location: Kentucky

Re: Mormons "are not Christians"?

Post #3

Post by mwtech »

[Replying to post 2 by DanieltheDragon]

From my understanding, a Christian is someone who follows the teachings of Jesus, rather than someone who just believes them. So whether or not someone follows the teachings of Jesus depends on the observer's interpretation of what Jesus teaches. One person might think someone is a christian, and someone else think the same person is non-christian. This is what leads to the "NoTrue Scottsman" fallacy.

Personally, I tend to take someone's word. If they say they are Christian, fine. What reason do I have to dispute that? But for another Christian, when that person is doing something they think is opposite of what Jesus taught, agreeing that they are Christian might in some way seem to them like they are supporting that behavior or ideology, when they are actually against it. There are just too many subjective interpretations of Christianity for someone to try an determine what a Christian objectively is and who fits that description.

DanieltheDragon
Savant
Posts: 6224
Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:37 pm
Location: Charlotte
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Mormons "are not Christians"?

Post #4

Post by DanieltheDragon »

[Replying to post 3 by mwtech]

I think there is another definition that includes that. I guess its just a matter of perception and how one treats words.

Overcomer
Guru
Posts: 1330
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 8:44 am
Location: Canada
Has thanked: 32 times
Been thanked: 66 times

Post #5

Post by Overcomer »

Mormons use Christian terminology, but have changed all the definitions to mean something completely different from what Christians mean by them. Let's compare orthodox Christianity, such as it has existed for centuries and is proclaimed by evangelicals today with Mormonism.

Let's take the person of God, for example:

Christians believe that God exists as a Trinity, that is, one God existing in three person. Mormons believe that there are not just three separate gods, but that there are multiple gods governing other planets (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163). Therefore, they are polytheists, while Christians are monotheists.

Christians believe that the Triune God has always existed as God and God is Spirit. Mormons believe that God was once a man who became a god ((Mormon Doctrine, p. 321; Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, vol. 5, p. 613-614; Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 345; Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 333).

Smith, in his teachings, mocked the Trinity, saying that the idea of three gods "crammed into one" would make "a wonderfully big God -- he would be a giant or a monster" (p. 372).

Then there's the identity of Jesus:

Christians believe he is the second person of the Triune God and, as such, as always existed as deity. Mormons believe he was born as a spirit (Mormon Doctrine, p. 29).

Christians believe that Satan was a fallen angel. Mormons believe Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers and we were all born as siblings in heaven to them both (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163; Gospel Through the Ages, p. 15).

Christians believe Jesus was born of a virgin. Mormons believe God had sexual relations with Mary to give Jesus' spirit a body (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, 1857, p. 218; vol. 8, p. 115 and Mormon Doctrine by Bruce McConkie, p. 547).

Then there's the issue of salvation:

Christians believe that we are saved by faith in Christ and salvation is a gift (Roman Catholics add works, but that is contrary to what the Bible says). Mormons disagree. As Spencer W. Kimball wrote in Miracle of Forgiveness (p. 206), "One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation."

In the Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, 1856, p. 247, we read that Jesus' sacrifice was not able to cleanse us from all our sins, (murder and repeated adultery being the exception).

The Mormon Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1 tells us that there is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet of God (188).

While Mormons will tell you that they accept Christ's atonement, the reality is that Christ only atones for their sins if they repent of them, are baptized in the Mormon church and obey all the commandments" (Gospel Principles, Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1979, p. 68.). In other words, their "salvation" is works-oriented. It is not a gift of grace as Christians teach and believe.

Mormons have traditionally taught that if a man is a good enough Mormon, he can become a god and have his own world to rule. This is something that the Mormon church is currently trying to play down. But it was stated in the Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345-347, 354, and was taught right up until this century.

When Christians speak of becoming like Christ, we are talking about taking on his character, not earning divinity.

Then there is how we regard the Bible.

Christians believe it is the Word of God. Mormons believe it is the Word of God except where it differs from Mormon teaching. Then, they say, it is corrupt. Christians practise exegesis, letting the Bible speak to them. Mormons practise eisegesis, twisting the Bible to make it fit their preconceived beliefs.

Then there's the Book of Mormon which has NO archaeological data to back it up. The Bible is backed up by a great many historical discoveries and facts.

Then there's the personage of Smith himself who made all kinds of prophecies that didn't come true. The Bible says that, when a person's prophecies do not come true, then he is not a true prophet of God. The only prophecies in the Bible that have yet to come true are those with regard to Christ's second coming -- when they will all be fulfilled.

Not all Mormons will believe all of the things I listed above. There are different branches that believe different aspects of Mormon theology. But none of them line up with Christianity.

One of the problems with Mormon theology is the fact that it is fluid. Whoever heads the church has the right to make changes about anything and everything, supposedly according to what God tells him.

For example, at one time, polygamy was a requirement for godhood so men had to "marry" many women. Because of societal pressure, Mormons decided to drop that as a prerequisite. Polygamy was instituted as a requirement because Smith was having sexual relationships with more than one woman and wanted to legitimize it. While there is polygamy in the Old Testament times, it was NEVER commanded or condoned by God.

At one time, blacks were said to be of Satan. The civil rights movement led them to stop teaching that claim. The Bible tells us that all are one in Christ no matter what their race.

I have offered only a very few of the literally dozens differences. I haven't even touched the issue of heaven and the three levels that Mormons teach about.

In fact, there are far too many differences to list here. The interesting thing is that Joseph Smith considered Christianity to be false and hated the very word "Christian" and didn't want to be known by it. But in the last few decades, Mormons have decided that they very much want to be seen as Christians, perhaps because they thought they would gain more acceptance by being in the Christian camp.

But the LDS church is no more Christian than Islam or Hinduism are. Mormonism is a completely separate religion. As I said, Mormons have borrowed Christian terminology, but they mean different things by them. That's why people who know nothing about the LDS are misled by them. The LDS church is attempting to hijack Christianity. They can fool non-Christians who don't know any better, but they can't fool Christians.

Does that make all Mormons horrible people? Not at all. There are some very nice Mormons in the world. Unfortunately, they are being deceived by their own church. I have no problem with Mormons saying they are Mormons, but it does bother me when they say they're Christians because, whether they know it or not, it just isn't true.

Bill McKeever keeps on top of all the latest Mormon trends and news. I recommend his site:

http://www.mrm.org/

I spent a year and a half dialoguing with a Mormon man about all of these things. So, while I have researched the information (for a major paper in a World Religions class), using books, web sites, etc., I have had what I read confirmed by a devout Mormon. There may be Mormons who disagree with him, but he didn't deny any of my claims -- although he did try to sidestep a few issues along the way!

Mudcat
Student
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2014 11:21 am
Location: The Hundred Acre Wood

Post #6

Post by Mudcat »

Zzyzx wrote: .
In one of the threads a self-proclaimed Christian said:
Overcomer wrote: Well, first of all, Mormons aren't Christians so citing them as an example of a "Christian" church that had a problem with someone disguised as a homeless man doesn't represent Christianity at all. But the "Mormons are not Christians" argument is an altogether different issue so I won't belabour it.
Who says? Who decides? Based on what criteria?

Perhaps Overcomer will enlighten us (or discover s/he is wrong)?
Hi Zzyzx,

There are a number of Christian groups that would suggest that Mormonism is not a Christian religion. My wife and her side of the family are LDS, I am an evangelical Christian and have studied their beliefs quite a bit. Though I do not agree with a number of their teachings, I do believe they are Christians.

Certainly there a good reasons to draw distinctions to try and discern the nature of things. I think the most persuasive reasoning for not considering LDS Christians, is the notion that there conception of the nature of God is too variant from a Biblical view to actually be considered viable. I do think there is a bit of merit to that sort of view... but I feel hard pressed to swallow the idea that when they talk of Jesus that they speak of anyone other than this Jewish fellow that was raised by a carpenter some 2,000 years ago, that I hold faith and the hope of salvation in.

I think our best hope of judging if a person is a Christian is by observing them and seeing if their actions are consistent with a Christian view. The LDS I know, though wrapped up in quite a bit incorrect theology, seem a fruitful people nonetheless. Kind, charitable, loving towards one another and their fellow man... these things they seem to do in Jesus name and for God's glory.

Ultimately God judges these things, I can only offer my opinion and I figure that is about the most you'll get from anyone else on the matter.

All the best,

Mudcat

DanieltheDragon
Savant
Posts: 6224
Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:37 pm
Location: Charlotte
Been thanked: 1 time

Post #7

Post by DanieltheDragon »

[Replying to Overcomer]

What your are pointing out is that mormons are not orthodox Christians. I did not know this needed clarity, I am pretty sure only orthodox Christians are orthodox Christians. The definition for Christian is one whom believes and/or follows the teachings of Jesus. Since mormons do this they are christian.

User avatar
ttruscott
Site Supporter
Posts: 11064
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:09 pm
Location: West Coast of Canada
Been thanked: 3 times

Post #8

Post by ttruscott »

Overcomer wrote: ...

Christians believe that we are saved by faith in Christ and salvation is a gift (Roman Catholics add works, but that is contrary to what the Bible says). Mormons disagree. As Spencer W. Kimball wrote in Miracle of Forgiveness (p. 206), "One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation."

In the Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, 1856, p. 247, we read that Jesus' sacrifice was not able to cleanse us from all our sins, (murder and repeated adultery being the exception).

The Mormon Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1 tells us that there is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet of God (188).

While Mormons will tell you that they accept Christ's atonement, the reality is that Christ only atones for their sins if they repent of them, are baptized in the Mormon church and obey all the commandments" (Gospel Principles, Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1979, p. 68.). In other words, their "salvation" is works-oriented. It is not a gift of grace as Christians teach and believe.

...
The parts in bold is pretty telling and breaks the traditional / orthodox Christian definition alright.

While Cain and the tares in the church go overboard often, Christians must listen to admonitions to search out the truth: 1 John 4:1 - Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

1 Peter 5:8 Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. refers to doctrinal as well as physical temptations.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15 - For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. Tells us that there are fake Christs around and fake Christian teachers and to be on guard.

The definition between heresy, heterodox and cult status comes from an established Church and is in reference to their established doctrine yet no Christian thinks all churches have the truth nor that their Church has all the truth. Since I know my own changes of mind and commitments to trivialities I give a bit more leaway than some. I trust GOD to sort us all out, the real purpose all this confusion was allowed, that is, to create a necessity for faith.

Peace. Ted
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

Elijah John
Savant
Posts: 12236
Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:23 pm
Location: New England
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 16 times

Post #9

Post by Elijah John »

[Replying to post 5 by Overcomer]

Your post is full of false definitions and assumptions. "Christians this, and Christians that" and now you seem to suggest that even Roman Catholic, who by the way are Trinitarians, worship Christ, believe in his "atoneing death on the cross" not to mention advocate following the teachings of Jesus, are not "true Christians" because they supposedly add "works". (Jesus added "works" too, by the way, and I have given examples in some other posts)

Also, you assume that "Christians" are all Trinitarian. Ever hear of 19th century Unitarian Christianity, as exemplifed by William Ellery Channing?

Seems to me you have an EXTREMELY narrow, exclusionary and fundamentalist view of who is a "Christian"

And I have not even touched on the bulk of your post here, denegrating LDS, who are exemplary and model citizens and often embody the teachings of Jesus Christ, and are thus, to my way of thinking ALSO Christians. The fact they may teach some doctines with which you disagree does not disqualify them from the definition.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

Zzyzx
Site Supporter
Posts: 25141
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2007 10:38 pm
Location: Bible Belt USA
Has thanked: 55 times
Been thanked: 93 times

Post #10

Post by Zzyzx »

.
Elijah John wrote: [Replying to post 5 by Overcomer]
Seems to me you have an EXTREMELY narrow, exclusionary and fundamentalist view of who is a "Christian"
EJ, it seems as though some of us draw out that narrow / exclusionary / fundamentalist sort of attitude in debaters who are so inclined. Some have even suggested that it is done deliberately to encourage them discredit their brand of theism " or instigate internecine warfare (and watch them flail at each other).

Evidently some Christians are inclined to define Christianity so rigidly that it excludes everyone except them and a few friends " especially when they get going on who is a REAL Christian.

Perhaps that attitude comes with the territory of deciding what others should do, how they should worship, who they should marry, and how to get to heaven.

I cannot imagine how anyone can purport to know that a person who claims to be a Christian is NOT a Christian (or believes / worships "wrong").
.
Non-Theist

ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence

Post Reply